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  • #16
    Originally posted by Smitty View Post

    The arm problem you're experiencing comes from bad posing and a lack of perspective.
    Thanks for confirming it, Smitty. This pose is always tricky and I was getting conflicted.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Smitty View Post

      The arm problem you're experiencing comes from bad posing and a lack of perspective.

      Elbows forward is a muscle man power pose. Diana's a warrior with no time for girly-man posers. Hers is a casual stance. Elbows go behind the body not forward. Because the right arm approaches a perpendicular view it will appear longer than the left which is near parallel to our view. We'll be lucky to see the left elbow at all.



      Beware the cow-that-fed-Philadelphia look. Boobs are fat and Diana is fat free. Her boobs don't bang against her knees. Give her human sized boobs and move them up to boob-ville where boobs live.
      "Bad posing" is, 1.) relative and 2.) not very helpful to the humble tomato. I also don't really quite get what you're trying to say with the rest of what you're saying because, neither of us have the elbows pulled in front of the figure. As for the arms going directly BEHIND the body in a casual stance, the way the hands are drawn gives clues to that being inaccurate. Without putting weight on the wrist, it won't bend the way it is in the original without moving the elbows forward. They'd still be behind the chest, but not so far back as I THINK you're implying they should be, (mind you, I may totally be misrepresenting whatever you were trying to say.) Having the arms folded in would have changed everything from the collar bone to the rotation of the shoulders to the pecs and lats being activated, etc. etc. (I should have drawn an exaggerated version of that. Oh well.)

      Truth be told, I thought this was Wonder Woman who I only know from Adam Hughes covers, (with the wider shoulders, huge back and boobs to match). I'm thinking Diana might be a young Justice or something version of her? If so, that's on me. Whoops. I thought I was actually being conservative with her boobs, given what I'm used to seeing of WW.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Devilman View Post
        As for the arms going directly BEHIND the body in a casual stance, the way the hands are drawn gives clues to that being inaccurate.
        Building a drawing around bad hand placement on a character you know nothing about is the very definition of a bad pose.
        PaulMartinSmith

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Smitty View Post

          Building a drawing around bad hand placement on a character you know nothing about is the very definition of a bad pose.
          Ok, now I'm getting the idea you feel slighted in some way? If that's the case, I'm sorry for not agreeing with your comments and standing by my "stance", (pun intended) that the arms wouldn't be pulled back, given the clues in the og piece. That being said... yeah... I stand by my critiques.

          Knowledge of the character, (unless they had a malady like Kyphosis or something), doesn't... for the most part... change the basic foundation of anatomy. You thought I drew boobs too big? Didn't have anything to do with my critique but, ok... disregard them.

          This isn't an attack; I just don't agree with your comments on my critique, good, bad or ugly. Soz, mate.
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          • #20
            You said you were having trouble with the arm. I explained why. You countered with the need for bad hand placement and a non-understanding of the character. I explained how that was wrong. I’d do the same for anyone. It’s got nothing to do with you.
            PaulMartinSmith

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Devilman View Post
              Having the arms folded in would have changed everything from the collar bone to the rotation of the shoulders to the pecs and lats being activated, etc. etc. (I should have drawn an exaggerated version of that. Oh well.)
              If you don't mind, could you post the exaggerated version of what you mean for the collar bone, shoulders, pecs, lats ? Because your 2 drawings are basically the same in those areas, except for the arms and the front shoulder shape.
              Just trying to study on the anatomy differences for the extreme 2 positions since you seem to know good deal about muscles. You don't need to worry about the hands on hips in your drawing though. (just to avoid further confusion on that issue)

              As for the hands positions and the elbows being behind the body, I believe Smitty meant for a normal hands-on-hips pose. Not very extreme one as you might think.
              I know this crit came up very frequently, and I studied and took pictures a lot. Although my knowledge is not yet perfect, I think you can still bend wrists when you naturally put hands on hips.( I find actually your first drawing's wrists pose is near impossible in any way.)
              Elbows are not very far behind. just slightly behind your torso. In that same pose, you can move your elbows more forward (Will still be behind the torso).
              It's only a small distance change. But the angle change is very big. The angle change is even more noticeable when character is standing 3/4. and, it makes the far arm very foreshortened.
              Try in your mirror. Hope that gives you the same finding as mine.

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              • #22
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                • #23
                  Was trying to post a few examples. If you google search, "female bodybuilding lat spread", you'll find poses of women who are pushing their elbows forward to activate their lats/traps, etc.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Smitty View Post
                    You said you were having trouble with the arm. I explained why. You countered with the need for bad hand placement and a non-understanding of the character. I explained how that was wrong. I’d do the same for anyone. It’s got nothing to do with you.
                    I'm afraid I don't follow you. You said something "bad posing" and about the elbows pointing forward. I may be wrong but, I also believe you said that the original piece had her elbows back in a more casual stance. I countered with the improbability of that being the case on account of the angle of the hands. Now you're saying the hand posing, (on what I assume is my follow up picture that displays a casual pose and a power pose and the difference in angles of elbows and wrist placement), is bad? Perhaps you think you're explaining something here but it just seems like you're throwing around insults.

                    As for my saying I didn't know the character... well... I don't know the character. But, I mentioned that as a, "that doesn't change the foundation of the anatomy unless that person has some kind of physical deformity." You said the boobs were too big on my red line. Ok. I thought it was Wonder Woman. The boobs weren't the point of my red lines.

                    Above are examples of women with their elbows pulled forward, (although, not to the extreme you gave in your example.) Here is an image i just found of a woman in a "power pose" with her hands more like those you said were usually reserved for men:



                    A quick google search of "power pose, women" or something similar would probably yield plenty of more results of similar merit.

                    Furthermore, on a different site about body language, https://www.scienceofpeople.com/body-language/ goes into the differences between male and female body language.
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                    • #25
                      Thanks for the bodybuilder images. What is the other extreme pose called and does it stretch trap, lat?
                      Now back on the hand pose again, I think your first drawing hand pose is not possible, thus bad?

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Devilman View Post
                        This is the very definition of a bad girly-man pose; It's the posture of a vain pretender, the exact opposite of our character. Dianna would be laughed off Amazon island for that.

                        We want your "power pose" (post 24) with elbows pointing back. We know they point back because of the hands; We see knuckles and wrist with nothing in-between. This is only possible if the elbows point back.
                        PaulMartinSmith

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                        • #27
                          I just want to say I learn I more from Smitty critiques/comments than any of the books I have. Thank you Smitty, you are a valuable resource here.

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                          • #28
                            Absolutely!

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                            • #29
                              Some of us would pay money to be critiqued by Smitty, this guy doesn't know what a privilege it is to get help from him.
                              The biggest mistake people make in life is not trying to make a living at doing what they most enjoy.

                              ---Malcolm Forbes

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