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Diana and Selina

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  • Diana and Selina




  • #2
    I think that you're making the heads too small. The overall size is ok I think, but you're including the hair within that space. When you draw the oval for the skull, the hair adds volume on top of that. By including the hair within that basic head volume, it makes it seem like they have small craniums. Diana also looks like she has a huge cowlick right at the beginning of her hairline.
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    • #3
      The heads are, if anything, too large. It depends where you start measuring. Using the head as a unit of measurement the divisions are: Chin-nipple-navel-crotch. As the head is the defining measurement, crown to chin is automatically correct. Chin to nipple is darn close. Nipple to navel gets a little wonky. Navel to crotch is where it falls apart.

      PaulMartinSmith

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      • #4
        I thought the head was a little too big and pelvis was too small too. Thanks Smitty. Do you see what battlewraith is seeing too? hair needs to be raised more? (I've been pondering about it, and can't decide)
        Also, shouldn't I consider foreshortening for Catwoman when measuring as I go down? as it's a bit of downshot? (though I know I didn't execute it properly.)
        Last edited by humble-tomato; 04-05-2019, 12:13 AM.

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        • #5
          Battlewraith's right about hair in the general sense. However, here we have no Afros, bee-hives or Mohawks. Both gals have straight, limp hair. Dianna's hair is pulled tight against the head. Selina's will have a bit of body around the part but she knows, after a long night under the cowl, she's coming home with a bad case of helmet hair (similar to pool hair, soaking wet and plastered against the skull) She's not going to tease it out just to put it under the cowl. The hair will add a bit but, not much. Now, if they were in ball gowns going to the opera...

          To be honest, I thought she just had tilted shoulders. If you want to play the "down-shot" card then, yes, heads become "smaller" over distance but, if this is a down-shot, she's got a serious case of giraffe neck. Lower the head until the chin covers her right trap and hides that side of the neck.
          PaulMartinSmith

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          • #6
            Fantastic work! I got no crits.

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            • #7
              Thanks Joseph, I like some of what I did too. But now I can't unsee the issues LOL.

              Originally posted by Smitty View Post
              Battlewraith's right about hair in the general sense. However, here we have no Afros, bee-hives or Mohawks. Both gals have straight, limp hair. Dianna's hair is pulled tight against the head. Selina's will have a bit of body around the part but she knows, after a long night under the cowl, she's coming home with a bad case of helmet hair (similar to pool hair, soaking wet and plastered against the skull) She's not going to tease it out just to put it under the cowl. The hair will add a bit but, not much. Now, if they were in ball gowns going to the opera...

              To be honest, I thought she just had tilted shoulders. If you want to play the "down-shot" card then, yes, heads become "smaller" over distance but, if this is a down-shot, she's got a serious case of giraffe neck. Lower the head until the chin covers her right trap and hides that side of the neck.
              Here, my goal was to build a strong physique & thick boned but not clumsy looking Wolverine.
              Am I okay to make him 7 3/4 heads as he's a bit shorter hero? Made the upper body the standard proportion but legs are shorter. Not sure if arms need to be shorter.
              I decided the head length, minding the tilted head. Thus, the top part is omitted. Hope that is a correct method.
              And any tip to achieve Wolverine kind of character will be appreciated along with any anatomy issues.


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              • #8
                Nice inking - really love the hair on WW, looks very good to me. Natural and well-rendered. Perhaps her eyes are a little larger than I'd expect (and somewhat wide apart), but it works nice, it's a pretty face like this.

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                • #9
                  One somewhat objective comment to start, everything else is subjective and what the heck do I know but, you asked and I paid the same 12ยข as everyone else.

                  If ever there was a character that should avoid "ideal" (8 heads) or "normal" (7.5 heads) proportions, Wolverine is it.

                  For Logan, I like to shoot for 7 heads. Using your figure, I've started by raising the crotch from 4.5 to 3.5 heads. Re-attached the right arm to the body. Slightly dwarfed the limbs from elbow down ( you, perhaps unawarely, have already stunted him from the knees down). Thinned wrists (he's not the Hulk). And, in a double-extra-purely-subjective move, sliced off the top of his head and sloped his brow for a more feral appearance.



                  Comparing the left and right figures, yours takes on the appearance of a stretch model more suitable to DD or Captain America. Logan's a short stubby little guy. Sell it.
                  PaulMartinSmith

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                  • #10
                    Thank you so much for this, Smitty! I spent days and nights studying every inch of your drawing since it was up. I also experimented many different combinations of proportions, and I think it really helped me understand proportions.
                    I cleared myself a lot of questions along the way, but a few things I really want to check.

                    Originally posted by Smitty View Post
                    ( you, perhaps unawarely, have already stunted him from the knees down).
                    What makes this decision? I measured the bottom of the (front) knee half way from the crotch. Is this wrong? or is it because I drew calf muscle too low?


                    Originally posted by Smitty View Post
                    And, in a double-extra-purely-subjective move, sliced off the top of his head
                    I always tried to make hero's eyes half way.(except for extreme characters like Hulk or Thanos)
                    One of the reasons is that I thought that the below crit (from some time ago) was because the eye line was shifted up from the half way point.
                    * The crit: " Give Thor's brain space to breathe " & " Needs forehead "
                    Was it simply because of the odd shape of the hair line? and not because of the eye line not being on the half?




                    Also, by chopping the top of his head, now the head length is shorter. So I should use that new length to measure, right? (It's still 7 heads by MY measuring method)
                    But, I'm confused about the bottommost point. Shouldn't I measure where the head falls in perspective, and not the tip of the front foot?



                    In the same sense, am I right to measure 2, not 1 here? I especially struggle if this image was front on, and the tilted down head is foreshortened (Just like my Diana drawing). Sorry Smitty for more questions. :P







                    Last edited by humble-tomato; 04-17-2019, 08:01 PM.

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                    • #11
                      Beware seduction by ruler. Proportions, standard or otherwise, are an essential starting point and something every artist should study if only to avoid them. Deviation from the norm can be a good thing and the starting point for individual characters. Our characters should be built more around "who and what" then they are around "units".

                      If asked I'd have said Logan was 5'4". My copy of Marvel Universe says 5'3". I say a grown man who has to stand tippy-toe to look Kitty in the eye is a short guy. So, the question to the class is, "Which of our Wolverines look shorter?" Those that think yours is shorter, smurf me and carry on. Those that think mine looks shorter can look above too see the theories that got me there.

                      On to specific questions
                      Originally posted by humble-tomato View Post
                      What makes this decision? I measured the bottom of the (front) knee half way from the crotch. Is this wrong? or is it because I drew calf muscle too low?
                      Comment was directed at "lower" legs. "Ideal" proportions says bottom-of-knee to the ground is 2 heads. You've used 1.5. Thus the "already stunted" comment

                      Originally posted by humble-tomato View Post
                      I always tried to make hero's eyes half way.(except for extreme characters like Hulk or Thanos)
                      One of the reasons is that I thought that the below crit (from some time ago) was because the eye line was shifted up from the half way point.
                      * The crit: " Give Thor's brain space to breathe " & " Needs forehead "
                      Was it simply because of the odd shape of the hair line? and not because of the eye line not being on the half?
                      I see no method of measurement that places the eyes at the half way mark. Using the top half as a unit (left-red) we see you've chopped off the chin. If we use the lower half (left-blue), you've chopped off the skull. If we consider the head as a unit (green) cut it in half we se the eyes are above the line.

                      "Ideal" proportions say that hairline-to-brow, brow-to-nose, nose-to-chin are equal thirds. Hairlines vary, the beard covers the chin so, let's use the nose as our unit of measurement (right-red) Having established brow-to-chin (red) we can now locate the eye line (blue). Using eyes-to-chin as a unit, we can project the height of the head (blue) Using the entire head as a unit, "ideal" proportions say the width is 2/3 the height. Using 2x3 proportions (red face) we see how far off the norm you've gotten.



                      Now that we see the hell that "perfect" measuring can lead us to, I'd like to get back to my theory of "Who and what" we're drawing. You say this is Marvel's Thor of Asgard. I say it's a cave dwelling Neanderthal. If Logan is a character to avoid "standard-ideal" proportions, then Thor is the place to WALLOW in "ideal-heroic" proportions.

                      Perhaps you're trying to align him with the Thor of legend? Let's remember that guy is a carrot top who flies in a goat drawn chariot. Do we really want to go down that road? Marvel's Thor is long established as Asgard's Audie Murphy. He may be 1500 years old but, by Asgardian standards, he's little more than a child. He may in fact be death incarnate, armageddon walking, Ragnarok on steroids but, to look at him, you want to pinch his widdle cheeks he's so cute.



                      Originally posted by humble-tomato View Post
                      Also, by chopping the top of his head, now the head length is shorter. So I should use that new length to measure, right? (It's still 7 heads by MY measuring method)
                      But, I'm confused about the bottommost point. Shouldn't I measure where the head falls in perspective, and not the tip of the front foot?
                      You kinda' caught me here but please accept the following quotes from my copy of the "Tired old excuses of a worn out hack" manual: While I chopped off the top of his head at the end, I began with "standard" heads as my unit of measurement; You neglected to account for his three inch heels; It's a 20 second doodle done on computer (still an unsettling and unnatural experience for me)

                      Originally posted by humble-tomato View Post
                      In the same sense, am I right to measure 2, not 1 here? I especially struggle if this image was front on, and the tilted down head is foreshortened (Just like my Diana drawing).
                      You're correct... BUT... because he's driven his chin into the divot of the collarbone, head two starts somewhere in the bridge of his nose.

                      Originally posted by humble-tomato View Post
                      Sorry Smitty for more questions. :P
                      Arrrrgh...intelligent questions... brain hurt... Go take some stoopid pills. Seriously though, it's been fun.
                      Last edited by Smitty; 04-18-2019, 10:17 PM.
                      PaulMartinSmith

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                      • #12
                        Many good points were made over the piece. If I may add, (and, it may be because of the torso/head sizes), that the arms seem a little short and the angle of the "rear" arm throws me a bit. I changed the angle of her shoulder to follow the bicep you originally drew.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Devilman View Post
                          Many good points were made over the piece. If I may add, (and, it may be because of the torso/head sizes), that the arms seem a little short and the angle of the "rear" arm throws me a bit. I changed the angle of her shoulder to follow the bicep you originally drew.
                          The arm problem you're experiencing comes from bad posing and a lack of perspective.

                          Elbows forward is a muscle man power pose. Diana's a warrior with no time for girly-man posers. Hers is a casual stance. Elbows go behind the body not forward. Because the right arm approaches a perpendicular view it will appear longer than the left which is near parallel to our view. We'll be lucky to see the left elbow at all.



                          Beware the cow-that-fed-Philadelphia look. Boobs are fat and Diana is fat free. Her boobs don't bang against her knees. Give her human sized boobs and move them up to boob-ville where boobs live.
                          PaulMartinSmith

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Smitty View Post
                            Beware seduction by ruler. Proportions, standard or otherwise, are an essential starting point and something every artist should study if only to avoid them. Deviation from the norm can be a good thing and the starting point for individual characters. Our characters should be built more around "who and what" then they are around "units".
                            I'm glad because that's more or less what I was gonna do. Measuring exactly was really hard. :P

                            Marvel's Thor is long established as Asgard's Audie Murphy. He may be 1500 years old but, by Asgardian standards, he's little more than a child. He may in fact be death incarnate, armageddon walking, Ragnarok on steroids but, to look at him, you want to pinch his widdle cheeks he's so cute.
                            Great analogy. I never thought it that way.

                            Arrrrgh...intelligent questions... brain hurt... Go take some stoopid pills.
                            Time for me to get some K.I.S.S. pills now. (of course that's "keep it simple stupid!")

                            Dang, I wish I can quit my day job and continue practicing on these..At least, finally, I have a time to reply.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by shaw View Post
                              Nice inking - really love the hair on WW, looks very good to me. Natural and well-rendered. Perhaps her eyes are a little larger than I'd expect (and somewhat wide apart), but it works nice, it's a pretty face like this.
                              Thanks shaw, eyes a bit too big and wide apart was exactly my after thought. Thanks for confirming it!

                              Thanks Devilman, you draw muscles so simple and nicely





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