Pummel Rules as of 01.04.2017

[Pete Tha Creep]

Ok, guys, these are the leanest, meanest rules we could come up with for your drawing pleasure.
We tried to keep it simple, suggestions and critique is welcome, but keep it friendly and constructive!

These rules take effect for the April matches, the three month penalty free test period is over!
In all the matches we had no problems so far, keep up the good spirit, guys

Pummel Rules

1.All work must be your own and done fresh for the match!

2.No tracing, swiping, copy pasting, stealing compositions, etc.

3.NoShow without notice (Missing In Action or MIA): dropped from Pummel (you can rejoin and start at the bottom) - no excuses, no remorse . Deadline is 25th 23:59 NYC time, every month (except December on the 27th). Giving notice BEFORE the deadline that you won't make it counts as a normal loss.

4.Taking a time out means starting at the bottom when you come back.

You feel bad about something or have a problem: PM pell or Pete Tha Creep!

Updated June 1, 2021 to reflect some longtime changes that never made it into this post (namely, that MIAs are removed from the ranks rather than dropped to the bottom, and that we no longer hold rank spots if you take a break).

Pummel mechanics:
Win +1
Lose -2
75%votes =KO (65% for three-way matches)
Check in until 3rd of month in monthly thread
Higher rank chooses topic, format and medium are free.
Post piece until deadline 25th, 23:59 NYC time in monthly thread
Last poster to the match puts up the poll.
VOTE!!!!!!

Streetfights can still be done, but they no longer have any effect on Pummel rankings.

[battlewraith]

What about use of 3d? It's 2017, are we going to start using digital tools that some comics professionals actually use or continue plodding along as usual with no real justification?

[Seithe]

I think I understand the need for a -2 on losses, but just to clarify; Is this to avoid instances of where say the defender is say rank 1 but loses to the challenger, rank 2. Simply dropping a rank would mean the defender is now rank 2 and the challenger is rank 1, so they would have to fight again. You would effectively have to beat the same person twice in order to advance one rank.

The only other thing I would add is the last person to post art posts the poll, except in the case of a no-show in which case the person who does post art posts after the deadline has expired. It would avoid commissioners having to scour through which polls are actually present.

In cases where you cannot yet make a poll it could still be posted but re-posted by a commissioner. Just a couple suggestions.

[Pete Tha Creep]

Good points, guys!

Battlewraith:
I am in contact with pell about the 3D, my general stance on this is, rule no.2 applies, but I want to keep the discussion open on this one. Happy New Year to you too

Seithe: Yeah, the -2 two is avoid same pairing after a match. The posting of matches is a good addition to the mechanics. Pell an I will collect all your input and process it as the discussion goes on. Thanks for keeping it friendly

[battlewraith]

Pete:

Rule #1 solves the problem. No use of pre-existing assets, Poser models, etc. You could require a wip thread for pieces using 3d if people felt it necessary.

Using 3d is no more tracing than using perspective rulers in Manga Studio or other apps. Drawing over your own 3d work is no more tracing than inking your own pencil lines.

[MLaw]

Just to put it out there.. there are many people who can block in an armature in absolutely no time flat. If you use Zsphere and adaptive skin in Zbrush, you could have your working armature in extremely few steps. There's also programs that allow you to "create" humanoid models. You select the parameters and generate. So it's not a pre-existing asset. Again, not my thing but these things exist.
Putting additional burden on someone who wants to use 3d though.. are we going to require people who draw digitally to do the same? It's a slippery slope really.. both ways round. I have avoided using 3d in PUMMEL despite using it in like 90% of my client work these days.

[Pete Tha Creep]

Pete:

Rule #1 solves the problem. No use of pre-existing assets, Poser models, etc. You could require a wip thread for pieces using 3d if people felt it necessary.

Using 3d is no more tracing than using perspective rulers in Manga Studio or other apps. Drawing over your own 3d work is no more tracing than inking your own pencil lines.

Yeah, thats pretty much what I wanted to say. As long as it is your own, and not swiped or traced from someone elses 3d or whatever reference, it's cool by me. But that is strictly ny personal pov and not to be taken as a ruling from me as a mod. I would never say building your own models for reference is tracing.

I personally like the idea of having as much diversity in the matches as possible, as long as we're talking comics. But ultimately its up to you guys, how do you want to play this? I am merely here to moderate and not dictate every step of the creation process. I wanna see awesome, genuine art!

[Seithe]

I remember when this came up a couple years back. At first i was afraid 3d modeling and tracing the figures would give people an edge against people not using it. Their figures would retain a certain amount of consistency over someone just eyeballing it. However, i now realise that was a ridiculous fear. It's just another tool, and the tool is only as good as the user. I would say that caution should be taken, more for the sake of the user. Relying too much on that kind of tech can screw you up, it's got to be a good thing to retain classic drawing skills, but at the same time we have to take advantage of every oppertunity technology affords us. I wouldn't line the idea of not being able to draw because my computer was on the fritz.

It's no different from someone modelling something from clay, photographing it, then drawing over that. Every step is owned by the creator after all.

So to summarise, personally i have no issues with how you do your art, as long as it's created by you. (Not including the program you use to make it, we're sure as hell not programmers)

[pell]

We intentionally avoid mentioning which media are acceptable in the rules. There are too many. Your artwork should be entirely done by you within the month of your match. That restriction makes it more difficult to work in some media.

To address computer generated 3D, that means any rendered model in your image should have been modeled, textured, lit and rendered by you within that month. Any image planes used for modeling or image textures need also have been created by you within the month. Procedural textures built into the software would be fine.

The exception would be using a preexisting model as a reference to draw from, just as you would use a reference photo or an actual object or model.

[GullyFoyle]

Quick question about the challenger:

Match Example:
1.Fred
2.Wilma

3.Joe
4.Betsy
5.New Guy

6.Mutt
7.Jeff

Fred wins so stays top. New Guy wins and is now rank 2 because whoever won that second match would move to challenger position, and if we don't do that the champ match would be a rematch? Or Jeff is 7+1 rank = 6, Joe is 3 - 2 ranks = 5, Betsy is 4 - 2 ranks = 6?

1.Fred
2.New Guy

3.Wilma
4.Joe

5.Betsy
6.Jeff

7.Veronica
8.Mutt

Or does Wilma still drop two ranks, and Joe come out of the match with the challenger unscathed:

1.Fred
2.New Guy

3.Joe
4.Wilma

6=Betsy
6=Jeff

7.Veronica
8.Mutt

My question, in a roundabout way, is does the +1 or -2 rank arithmetic need to change because of these challengers and where they slot in?

I quite like the challenger idea, as it forces people to be realistic when they come in at the risk of going to the bottom (or at least it will when the ladder settles down).

[Pete Tha Creep]

Good point GullyFoyle, I could live with both options, what do the others think?
I think it is important to avoid rematches for the championship and also try to avoid other people's ranks stagnating if a challenge occurs. The solution should be as simple as possible.

[pell]

Quick question about the challenger:

Match Example:
1.Fred
2.Wilma

3.Joe
4.Betsy
5.New Guy

6.Mutt
7.Jeff

Fred wins so stays top. New Guy wins and is now rank 2 because whoever won that second match would move to challenger position, and if we don't do that the champ match would be a rematch? Or Jeff is 7+1 rank = 6, Joe is 3 - 2 ranks = 5, Betsy is 4 - 2 ranks = 6?

1.Fred
2.New Guy

3.Wilma
4.Joe

5.Betsy
6.Jeff

7.Veronica
8.Mutt

Or does Wilma still drop two ranks, and Joe come out of the match with the challenger unscathed:

1.Fred
2.New Guy

3.Joe
4.Wilma

6=Betsy
6=Jeff

7.Veronica
8.Mutt

My question, in a roundabout way, is does the +1 or -2 rank arithmetic need to change because of these challengers and where they slot in?

I quite like the challenger idea, as it forces people to be realistic when they come in at the risk of going to the bottom (or at least it will when the ladder settles down).

Sorry for the slow response. The answer is that New Guy is not ranked 5. He or she has no rank during the challenge. The ranks don't change when someone challenges. If New Guy wins, next month he gets the rank position that the highest-ranked person in his match would have gotten (subject to tiebreakers based on record). If New Guy loses, he goes to the bottom next month. Challengers would be put at the bottom in the order that they announced their challenge in the case of multiple challengers.

In your example, if New Guy wins, he would have the rank of 2 next month, subject to tiebreaker, Joe 5, and Betsy 6. If he loses, he goes to the bottom.