Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

A thought on the Pummel Weigh-ins...

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • A thought on the Pummel Weigh-ins...

    Hey all, just thought I'd post this up there, 'cause it's been kind of bugging me for a while now...wanted to hear other's thoughts on the subject...
    It seems to me that the current weigh-in process is flawed...specifically, the thought that the class that gets the most votes is where the person gets placed..
    For example:
    If a person gets 3 HEAVY votes, 2 LIGHT-HEAVY votes, and 2 MIDDLE votes, should that person really be placed in the HEAVIES?
    Doesn't it make more sense that the person would be placed in the LIGHT-HEAVIES, as the majority of votes were actually for a lesser weight class?
    Same holds true in reverse -- if a person gets 3 MIDDLE votes, 2 LIGHT-HEAVY votes, and 2 HEAVY votes, it makes more sense to me that the majority of votes leaned to a higher weight class, but in this instance, the person would end up in the MIDDLEs...


    -- thoughts, anyone?
    success is not the absence of failure, but the overcoming of it
    All-Time THUNDERBRAWL CHAMP
    HW|Record:24-3|KOs:15|3-timeLHWchamp|3-timeMWchamp
    STATS
    STOCKPILE

  • #2
    I kind of like the raw democratic process with the higher number of votes deciding the weightclass, IE: like it is right now. I think it would be too convoluted to go with the idea you are talking about at this point, ekotek. However, there have been one or two cases of sandbagging where people entered so-so drawings in order to get into a lower weight-class, and then clearly don't belong there, and maybe find that they don't want to be in that class. Perhaps the commissioners should have a "special" vote amongst themselves to move a competitor to a higher class if they feel it is necessary (like if all the commissioners decide unanimously)? Otherwise, there seems plenty of ways to move up, or you can request to move down if the competition is too hot. I was voted in as a middleweight and moved up fairly rapidly (2 months?) to the Light Heavies by winning 3 streetfights against heavier weight-class opponents. Just my 2 cents.
    Last edited by scmarooney; 09-05-2010, 04:04 AM. Reason: punctuation
    HW(ret.):W42/ L29/KO16

    Comment


    • #3
      The only major issues we've had is when someone comes in and purposely under-sells themselves. They then get frustrated in a lower class.

      If someone is in a class that is too tough for them, they are welcome to move down. I did.
      My Deviant Art page
      My PUMMEL stats
      PUMMEL stats: 61 wins | 58 losses | 31 KOs
      2 Time Heavyweight Champion
      Light Heavyweight Commissioner

      Comment


      • #4
        There are issues with the weighin process, but there are ALWAYS going to be issues with something like this. I am not going to go over the same ground as scrmooney and Juggertha, but the most common mistakes when it comes to weighingin or moving up would seem to fall under the following categories:
        1. People who don't post up their best work. If you don't do this well there isn't much to be done but fight your way up.

        2. People going outside of the voting thread to find examples of the work the people can do. There have been massive disagreements about what guys could do caused by this and the back and forth was useless in the end.

        3. The Heavies are a busy group of guys and they don't have a lot of time for extra drawings so it is sometime hard to move up from the LHW to the Heavies. With this an issue I know we have talked about restarting the Wild Card matches, but the second round of those had such a bad showing that it was actually disheartening. So we will have to give it more consideration. Also, no one is calling our the heavies point blank just saying "Hey you ... long deadline ... lets do this" ... that may cause some movement.

        4. There are still some guys, though the numbers are very small, who if they reenter pummel or if they are still competeing that are in the wrong weight class because of the initial seeing poll from last May and the initial weighins from August-October 2009. Firstly the initial seeding saw Hangman, JCImmortal, and anubis get placed in the lightweights where they had NO place being because they could easily match the work of the middleweights above them (4 out of the 5 initial wildcard matches saw the lightweights win and move up). However, we were initially told that there would be 48 guys in PUMMEL and if you wanted to work your way up you would have to start at the bottom of the ladder; meaning that guys like Beastie would have had to work their way up through ALL 48 guys to become heavyweight champ. Now obviously that doesn't make any sense, but it did mean that some of us had to work our way up out of a division that we never would have been placed in during the later stage of weighins but that is just how things HAD to start. Oh and the weighin thread were originally really wacky as most of us didn't know the difference between a high middleweight or heavy ... and a low middleweight and a lightweight. That initial group of guys in the light that I mentioned above really messed up the weighins because people were not going to put someone over hangman if they couldn't match him, even if the person could match other middlewieghts.

        Now I think that reintroducing the wildcards may be a way to go ... or somthing like a royal rumble type thing ... the problem is to make sure we make it fair. We commissioners are open to suggestions ... so spit ball them .... just don't be surprised if we say no for certain reasons.
        "The next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me REAL hard" -Batman
        http://www.penciljack.com/forum/showthread.php?t=80062
        The only person I need to out draw is myself!

        Comment


        • #5
          There are definite issues with the weigh in process, mainly because it's based on the opinions of EVERYONE, which in and of itself is a major major flaw in the system. There are individuals here who look at just about everything and think it's great. I feel those kind of votes do a disservice to the process.

          I have so much more to type, but don't feel like a rant at the moment.
          Money can't buy you happiness, but it will pay for the search.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by spidey976 View Post
            Firstly the initial seeding saw Hangman, JCImmortal, and anubis get placed in the lightweights where they had NO place being because they could easily match the work of the middleweights above them.
            In retrospect, the initial seeding was a joke. When you put guys like Hangman, JCImmortal, and anubis in the same poll with DFBovey, Hadesillustrations, and gobl1n, of course they'll draw the lowest votes in the poll, automatically putting them at the bottom. It was never a true representation of where those guys belonged.
            Money can't buy you happiness, but it will pay for the search.

            Comment


            • #7
              isn't the weigh in meant to give an initial placing, then people through the challenges work their way up and down to their true position? If you participate properly, things will work their way through the flaws in the system.

              Comment


              • #8
                There are issues to be sure ... but yes they are working themselves out ... and the skill levels seem to be evening out into the various divisions slowly but surely. The problem is right now we have one fairly top heavy division with the other three slowly losing people as individuals move up or drop out. Each division started with 16 people in it (and we had three divisions). We now have 10 Lightweights, 11 Middleweights, 24 LightHeavies, and 8 Heavies. With that being said there are also problems with VERY few Heavies and Lightweights coming to pummel and getting weighed in as such. So the middles and LH get bigger and bigger and as we lose guys in the other they get smaller.

                I agree with Popninja to a point that the weighins are going to be flawed, and it is simply a matter of personal choice, and guys voting either to high or to low based on their own bias. I have seen a fully rendered amazing layed out piece get voted middleweight (that individual is a Heavy now), and a booty shot with now background or even facial anatomy get voted heavyweight. The later IS a heavyweight to be sure but that piece wasn't, but people voted on the basis of "I know what I know", and there you have it. There will be issues no matter what we do simply because PEOPLE are involved ... we have no automatic PUMMEL measuring stick so we do the best we can.

                Speaking for myself, if I am being honest I am not ENTIRELY sure that I belong in the LightHeavies, and I am man enough to admit it. I got in that division by winning some very KEY matches (i.e. beating Breck by 1 vote just before the split), and using some strategy when I picked topics and opponents when given the chance to choose them. Now, I KNOW that some people don't think I belong in that division (some of the voting in the past made it clear), but I am being pushed and I intend to hold my own and improve to the point that I can dish it out with the BEST in the division. That is what this whole thing is about.
                "The next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me REAL hard" -Batman
                http://www.penciljack.com/forum/showthread.php?t=80062
                The only person I need to out draw is myself!

                Comment


                • #9
                  I've always thought that the divisions are complicated to maintain. If you did things like a squash ladder, where people work their way up, or down a ladder, then it doesn't matter.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The system is just flawed regardless. At the end of the day, its all about votes, and those votes are cast by people, which instantly puts wrenches in the system. And really, there doesn't seem to be a quick and easy fix to make things better than they are now. The wildcards were a great idea at the time, but was met with very low enthusiasm, which is kind of sad really. The wildcards are also flawed as well...but really, even with all the flaws, Pummel still produces some great artwork and pushes people no matter what.
                    I know personally for me before Pummel, I just came on here to look at people's artwork and never really contribute except for a comment here or there. But as soon as I found out about Pummel, I began posting here, and drawing a hell of alot more.

                    And speaking on both Shawn's and Popninja's points...you're right, put up against people like Dfbovey, Alex and Goblin, there was no way I could put up a matching piece against that, especially since I was still learning a whole lot about everything then...but it was also disheartening to be put almost dead last among everyone though. And that I think comes back to Shawn's earlier point about people just voting for others because 'they know what they can do', and not on the posted pics. And because I hardly posted artwork before that initial weighin whenever that was, I guess that worked against me. I'm just glad that the weigh ins now are alot better than the system that was in place initially, because that could've really discouraged people from participating at all.

                    And from all of what I just wrote...I guess what I was trying to say, "yeah, the system sucks, but its A LOT better than what was there before".
                    I don't bother making points, because there is no point.

                    My webcomic| Redux Deluxe

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      The one problem i have with it is that someone can get 10 heavy votes, 25 light heavy, and 26 middles and get dropped to the bottom of the middles to start. But Bovey fixed that a bit because of the winning 3 battles thing. I do think that having a Panel of the four moderators would help since it would be hard to get 3 heavies to pummel with you. I have a problem with people critiquing the artwork posted because it call and has changed the votes. if someone says the art blows some people. I have seen Critique that questioned anatomy that was good, and others that gushed over the art and the voted swung.

                      The thing that we all have to remember is we are doing this for fun and as with all art it is subjective.
                      PuMMeL : Wins 9 --- Losses 11 --- KO 7

                      FACEBOOK : http://www.facebook.com/EricArmstrongArts
                      TWITTER : http://twitter.com/ArmstrongArts
                      EMAIL : [email protected]

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I know that I've seen some stuff I thought should have been way lower in the polls than where it was ending up and decided to vote for the lowest grouping that I thought had a chance to win. So there are some folks I've voted Light-Heavy or Middleweight that I thought should have been lower than that, but I knew my vote wouldn't do any good if it ended up being an anomaly. Sure, I could have voted with my heart and gone Lightweight, but since it was a tie between Light-Heavy and Heavy, I went with the lesser evil.

                        Much like real life political voting.

                        For God's sake, let's make those polls public though. And if it isn't posted as a public poll, then close it and re-open it. I want people held accountable for their terrible voting.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Any time we allow people to vote, there's going to be some oddities. How many times have you seen challenges go the exact opposite way you expected? How many times have you seen a loss and struggled to understand why?

                          It doesn't happen all the time, but it does happen.

                          Part of the nature of PUMMEL is letting the voting public decide.

                          It's the nature of the beast.
                          My Deviant Art page
                          My PUMMEL stats
                          PUMMEL stats: 61 wins | 58 losses | 31 KOs
                          2 Time Heavyweight Champion
                          Light Heavyweight Commissioner

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by ArmstrongArts View Post
                            The one problem i have with it is that someone can get 10 heavy votes, 25 light heavy, and 26 middles and get dropped to the bottom of the middles to start. But Bovey fixed that a bit because of the winning 3 battles thing. I do think that having a Panel of the four moderators would help since it would be hard to get 3 heavies to pummel with you. I have a problem with people critiquing the artwork posted because it call and has changed the votes. if someone says the art blows some people. I have seen Critique that questioned anatomy that was good, and others that gushed over the art and the voted swung.

                            The thing that we all have to remember is we are doing this for fun and as with all art it is subjective.
                            I agree that judging artwork on the internet is a highly subjective thing and that irrespective of what "class" a person is voted into, it may not be a true measure of what they are capable of. There seem to be many published artists working professionally in comics that wouldn't be voted into the heavyweight or even light-heavyweight division in PUMMEL, and many participating in those divisions in PUMMEL that cannot get a professional job in comics.

                            An interesting question I've thought about is- would Jack Kirby, if he were still alive, and nobody knew who he was, be voted into the heavyweight division in a weigh-in tomorrow? How about Erik Larsen, or other published artists with a recognizable style, but a style that isn't currently a huge fan-favorite? Are people really taking into account good anatomy, perspective, story-telling, or are they going with flash and what is currently in vogue?

                            Some people seem to love everything that gets posted, while others have an impossibly high standards to get voted into the top group. I personally think that a requirement for future weigh-ins ought to be at least ONE sequential page. Pin-ups are okay, but they don't tell anyone bupkiss about your storytelling abilities.

                            Also, it might be interesting as a sort of "Royal Rumble" to have competitions across weight-classes doing a script for a sequential story, use one of Loston's, or Ugga's scripts, or one of the writers over in the writer-section. Have each person do one page and match that page up against the other classes page, and the votes get counted for your team at the end. The "team" with the higher vote-total wins the Rumble. What they would win, I don't know (moving up 3 or 4 spots? Champ in the division automatically moves up?). Obviously I haven't thought this one through completely.
                            HW(ret.):W42/ L29/KO16

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              The weight classes do complicate things a bit, but when they were created it was to give people goals and motivation so that the task of climbing up a 100+ artist ladder wouldn't feel as daunting. I think having the classes keeps people motivated.

                              It kinda works like level bosses ina a video game. You work hard enough to get past one level to move on to the next. In a way, the whole idea for PUMMEL came from the Mike Tyson's Punchout model.

                              The first weigh in for the original tournament was definitely flawed. But I think people had the opportunity still to make their own way by doing well in that tournament. If you were ranked low, then you should have breezed through your class. And things eventually evened out.

                              I think the current weigh in system is much more fair than the original. And it would be impossible to have a perfect system in place.
                              See my work on Game of Thrones seasons two, three and four blurays
                              DeviantArt

                              Comment

                              Unconfigured Ad Widget

                              Collapse
                              Working...
                              X