Discussion - Help with pummel pieces

[Wassy]

I stopped returning HIS calls because he's so damn needy.

[dfbovey]

I'm trying to think back to any match I've had (or anyone) where tipping my hand was even a factor.

I think I've always taken the line of thinking that I'd do my best each time out. And if I get beat I get beat.

[BringerOfStorms]

Now, if only Jim Lee would return my calls...

That raises an interesting question. What if I have contacts in the comics field that are NOT available on this forum, and therefore my networking skills are providing me with an advantage over my competition? If you happen to have someone to collaborate with that your opponent does not is it still fair? What if you are not "tipping your hand" as you choose to communicate not via the forum here but through private email with a professional artist?

It is a good question.

Personally I think that Pummel pieces should be posted (if you choose to request feedback) AFTER the fight is over. Then you can see why you did or did not get votes and apply it to your NEXT piece.

~BoS

[Diesel]

One of the primary reason (if not THE primary reason) that I love Penciljack is the community feeling that we are all here to improve. We have a wide range of skill development levels here from pros to complete beginners, but that we are all here to improve our skills at the craft of making comics. In that spirit I think that any and all help is fair game. I think the vast majority of pummel contestants would never even consider using a wholly suggested composition, but that they would study that suggestion and try to find what works about it and what is wrong with their composition.

I think there is a line where pieces could "swipe" some of the very generous help that is offered on these boards, but I think attempting to do anything formal about it is not necessary. First of all, if Mr. Lee was dispensing advice to individuals, there would be no way that we would know that that contestant was getting voluminous assistance (unless Mr. Lee decided to start posting here instead of assisting over e-mails). So we can never police off-line help; we rely on the honor system. Second, I think that the voting public here at penciljack is pretty savvy to this stuff and that if someone did submit a piece that was largely influenced/provided by help from fellow-PJers I think that persons voting would probably reflect that situation. We ain't a stupid bunch.

I wouldn't want to do anything to dissuade people from attempting to get help and improve here on PJ. In fact, I think we should encourage it as much as possible (as in Sketchy's awesome thread). I do think this is a subject that should be discussed (as it is here) regularly so that newer PJers are clear about the intention of the help offered on the forum. It is help offered to allow each of us to improve our own skills, NOT help offered to allow us to win by relying on the skills of others here.

[drawdan]

One of the primary reason (if not THE primary reason) that I love Penciljack is the community feeling that we are all here to improve. We have a wide range of skill development levels here from pros to complete beginners, but that we are all here to improve our skills at the craft of making comics. In that spirit I think that any and all help is fair game. I think the vast majority of pummel contestants would never even consider using a wholly suggested composition, but that they would study that suggestion and try to find what works about it and what is wrong with their composition.

I think there is a line where pieces could "swipe" some of the very generous help that is offered on these boards, but I think attempting to do anything formal about it is not necessary. First of all, if Mr. Lee was dispensing advice to individuals, there would be no way that we would know that that contestant was getting voluminous assistance (unless Mr. Lee decided to start posting here instead of assisting over e-mails). So we can never police off-line help; we rely on the honor system. Second, I think that the voting public here at penciljack is pretty savvy to this stuff and that if someone did submit a piece that was largely influenced/provided by help from fellow-PJers I think that persons voting would probably reflect that situation. We ain't a stupid bunch.

I wouldn't want to do anything to dissuade people from attempting to get help and improve here on PJ. In fact, I think we should encourage it as much as possible (as in Sketchy's awesome thread). I do think this is a subject that should be discussed (as it is here) regularly so that newer PJers are clear about the intention of the help offered on the forum. It is help offered to allow each of us to improve our own skills, NOT help offered to allow us to win by relying on the skills of others here.

Very well stated....The thing I miss the most about my years in college,... the crits. Theres nothing I loved more than going to class on a day a drawing or other assignment was do, posting my work on the board or an easel along with everyone else's and then having a huge crit session. I remember learning more from examining other peoples work and different interpretations than from creating the art in the first place. It was very exciting..Christmas morning for a six year old exciting. When I go to a con, I spend more time in artist alley talking to my peers than I do gawking over professionals like Lee. That is what, I feel, is at the heart of Pummel and sites like penciljack. The minute it becomes about something else...anything else...other than learning and growing as an artist, than it's time to move on. I will always try and give feedback to anyone, no matter what the skill level, if I think I have something useful to add that hasn't been covered by someone else because that is what I want in return. In that spirit...get as much feedback from your peers as you can before a SF or other Pummel deadline so that you can put forward the best peice of art you can muster. Hopefully that's what we are all here for.

[CrazyDiamond]

This was brought up in my WIP thread and it's a reasonable question - is it fair to get help on a pummel piece?

I'm not sure if your question is intended to discuss fairness. As if both participants have an equal opportunity to receive advice so there is no question of fairness.

Maybe your question was meant to be "should participants get help on a pummel piece?"

And to this I answer 'yes' as the main reason for Pummel is to improve the artists work. It would be a contradiction of purpose if advice wasn't allowed to be given.