Define "Reference" Around These Parts

[Juggertha]

Poser is an interesting area - the model (and often the clothing) were usually created by someone else.

I think if you sculpted it, it'd be no problem. But as soon as you're using someone else's creation, you're starting to stray closer to the line.

That being said, if you created and composed a full piece in poser, and then used it as a reference for another work, it seems to me that it'd be your work.

The photo thing has already been addressed.

[Sketchbook]

Juggs that looks like a good step in the right direction. Good work! I'm interested to see what the other commissioners have to add. As frustrating as this argument has been I think the community is close to putting it to rest. Just one more tussle and we ought to have it settled.

[sirandal]

Juggertha I think if you extend your logic with poser, you would also have to limit photos of tanks to only tanks that you built yourself...no?

[Juggertha]

In that case, then we'd never be allowed to use any piece of anything created by anyone else. A porsche, a harley? They'd be off limits.

I'm not sure that's in keeping with the spirit of the rules.

But I also don't think that tracing over a model created by another artist is in keeping with our intent.

[Aabh]

Usually I used the default mannequin (That "Da Vinci" mannequin... I think it's called: Made of wood with ball joints and the like, there is one in Poser that mimics that), but I had thought about modified sculpts. Anyway, the reason I brought it up was that I kinda think it should be addressed in your PUMMEL rules to some degree as if I thought it up, invariably someone else will, too

[Juggertha]

Yeah, I think that if someone is using any mannequin, whether digital or real, there's an onus to "use" it, rather than "abuse" it. If we're using these things to help us in referencing poses, we owe it to ourselves not to be constrained by the figure, but to rather use it as a jumping off point.

[sirandal]

I actually didnt think beyond anyone using poser only to just get their figure's pose down (for the skeleton). I really didnt think beyond that so didnt consider someone actually trying to trace the contours of a model.

[Juggertha]

I actually didnt think beyond anyone using poser only to just get their figure's pose down (for the skeleton). I really didnt think beyond that so didnt consider someone actually trying to trace the contours of a model.

Yeah, I've seen quite a few people just trace poser models... not necessarily in PUMMEL, but DA seems full of 'em. If you know the poser models, all of a sudden DA seems like a familiar family. lol

[Aabh]

Yup. You can render in Toon shading mode as well, which means you can get a start on lineweight and everything. Poser is great, but as Juggertha points out, you are VERY limited by it. Still, it can and does get used, so I think it deserves a little mention

[dfbovey]

Guys, I think what's getting lost is that this is a competition. It's not the pros. And this contest isn't about taking short cuts or standing on the back of others. What some pros get away with in order to meet deadlines (and in some cases build a very bad reputation for themselves), isn't a justification to allow it to happen here.

To the poser question. I would think it would be ok to print something out to use as reference or as a resource. But to print it out and trace over it and add to it would seem to fall into what I think shouldn't be allowed. If you have to skip over fundamentals, gesturing, building a figure with proper proportions and adding the correct anatomy... this activity should be used to sharpen those skills. If you go take a figure drawing class you wouldn't be able to sit there, take a photo and trace over it for a grade while everyone else is looking at a live model and drawing what they see and interpreting it. I think that mentality needs to apply here.

Tracing something isn't referencing. Looking at something and interpreting it is referencing.