Define "Reference" Around These Parts

[Wassy]

OK, so I'm new around here, looking forward to Pummeling next month. As I read the weigh-in threads, I keep seeing comments about "referencing", and some of it is not in a positive light. I need some clarification.

I'm going into my senior year for getting my BFA in Illustration. I would be given a tongue-lashing and probably docked a grade if I DIDN'T gather reference. I've heard everyone from James Bennett to Frank Stockton to Tim O'Brien speak, and while some used models more than others, they all talked about gathering their reference for their pieces. It almost makes me projectile vomit to have referencing be thought of as "bad", because it is now almost muscle memory for me.

I understand about not being a SLAVE to your reference and making your artistic choices. Value arrangements and compositions aren't perfect in real life. Is that the issue?

Is the reference thing not so much reference but more swiping? Is it just a semantics thing? Please help me to understand so my brain can stop being boggled.

Also, sorry if this should be in an even more general discussion place, but I've seen these comments in the weigh-in area, so I figured I'd keep it here.

[benjonesart]

Im with you wassy and kinda would like to know what all the hoopla is about with reference using. Its VERY common even frowned upon when you don't use them in the professional market. Kinda would like to know whats the deal with it here.

[sirandal]

It is an unfortunate semantical discrepancy. You guys along with most professionals here know the importance of appropriate research and references for completing work. The grumblings you are hearing are not against reference per se but rather people tracing and/or copying finished illustrations and passing them off as original works.

[Beastie]

The issues of 'referencing' and 'swiping' have been debated long and hard on these boards.

You weren't to know that - so I'm not having a go or anything - I just think it would be counter-productive for everyone to immerse themselves in this debate yet again.

If you would like to see what was said on the subject last time - you couldn't do better than read through the huge thread that we put together before......

Here's the link to that: http://www.penciljack.com/forum/show...acing...-Oh-my!

It would be very disappointing if everyone piled on this subject again

As a suggestion to the MODS - how about a sticky that defines referencing? I think we came to some kind of agreement in that other thread.

[Wassy]

Yeah, I didn't want to start a debate, I was just getting the nagging feeling that what I think of as the word "reference" isn't necessarily the definition on these boards. Hate it or love it, it's just hard being a newcomer and getting what seems like strange feedback because of semantics.

I'd love to see a sticky up of some sort.

[spidey976]

Penciljack himself JUST Closed that thread so... Yep read it and when in doubt PM a commissioner.

[dfbovey]

The reason there is confusion between referencing, swiping and tracing is that some people don't know the difference or call swiping and tracing "referencing" to justify what they are doing.

Swiping and tracing are what's not allowed. Don't trace and don't swipe and you are within the rules.

[Wassy]

Ah, OK. It makes a bit more sense. We've definitely got a "Would a rose by any other name smell as sweet?" issue going down. I can keep back the projectile vomiting because my definition of "reference" isn't what was being disparaged.

I appreciate the clarifications =)

[Aabh]

When this cools down, I'd love to talk about another aspect that had crossed my mind and wasn't brought up about tracing (And I was just about to bring it up when PJ closed the thread 0.0). Perhaps we can have a safe place to discuss this and let everyone put in a clean and clear definition of what it is, boil that down to a set of rules that are as clear as we can make them, and then post that as a sticky (Because the thread itself is a little full of venom and spitty-ness which, as Wassy had pointed out, is a little scary for someone coming in... I remember doing the same thing in college, having to gather references and using models and things like that for my pieces, and if I hadn't been in that argument from the start, I too would totally be confused and a little gunshy to put referenced work out).

[spidey976]

When this cools down, I'd love to talk about another aspect that had crossed my mind and wasn't brought up about tracing (And I was just about to bring it up when PJ closed the thread 0.0). Perhaps we can have a safe place to discuss this and let everyone put in a clean and clear definition of what it is, boil that down to a set of rules that are as clear as we can make them, and then post that as a sticky (Because the thread itself is a little full of venom and spitty-ness which, as Wassy had pointed out, is a little scary for someone coming in... I remember doing the same thing in college, having to gather references and using models and things like that for my pieces, and if I hadn't been in that argument from the start, I too would totally be confused and a little gunshy to put referenced work out).

Tracing anything in PUMMEL is a no no. UNLESS it is your own work or a photo that you yourself took for a reference. However tracing backgrounds is a bit hinky because it is better to work them up yourself