Before you post an ad looking for an artist...

[Symson]

Writers before you put up an ad for an artist, please check out these these links by fellow writers.

Mark Evanier
http://www.povonline.com/cols/COL209.htm

http://tiny.cc/q6y0w

http://mikeluoma.com/SUAPOYCB.html

Harlan Ellison
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj5IV23g-fE

Here's a piece written by James Rainey of the LA Times and a writer's view of freelance getting a little too free in his industry.
LA Times

It's a consensus. Pay all of the talent. Please don't ask someone to work for free.

If you can't pay the talent, then you have to cut them in on co-ownership of the property.

[salmonguy]

That's all well and good, but what nobody ever seems to realise is that the artist is getting something too. I would argue that while art is important, writing is far more so. Pretty much all the most succesful comics I know of, with the exception of Hellboy, are succesful because of the writing, and a hell of a lot of them have some pretty atrocious art. The fact is, people will forgive poor art for good writing (think much of Sandman, Powers etc), but very few (none that I know of, in fact) comics succeed based on the art despite awful writing.
The only time a poorly written book will do well is when it's already an established and popular property (think Loeb on the Ultimates), and fans will suffer out of loyalty or just so they don't miss anything important before a decent writer takes the reins back.

I agree that the artist should share in the spoils, but I get so sick of artists disregarding the importance of writers, or thinking that they can write themselves (some can, but a hell of a lot that try can't). If you want to make it into the industry, the best thing an artist can do is attach themselves to a great writer with a great idea. That's going to land you industry attention you just won't get sending in random submissions.

[Symson]

I agree that the artist should share in the spoils, but I get so sick of artists disregarding the importance of writers, or thinking that they can write themselves (some can, but a hell of a lot that try can't).

Where is this coming from?

The links are are all from writers, not artists.

[Orphangrinder]

I agree that the artist should share in the spoils, but I get so sick of artists disregarding the importance of writers,

Certainly, writers are extremely important, and I doubt any sensible person would disagree. What we have here, however, is a simple issue of supply and demand. How often do you get e-mails from artists asking if you'd please write something for them? My guess is not very. Every time I post a page, I get a flurry of e-mails from writers asking me to draw for them.

[salmonguy]

Yeah, but how many artists on this site, who've been drawing for years, have made it into the industry? I read comics all the time by artists way worse than a lot of the people on this board, so it's not that the people here aren't talented enough. How many titles have you drawn for Marvel or DC?

I'm not suggesting professional artists should work for free, but the fact is, the rest of us are all in the same boat, trying to crack into the industry. Artists need writers as much as we need artists, there's just this skewed sense of value, where for some reason good writing is considered worthless by most artists.

Where is this coming from?

The links are are all from writers, not artists.

It's coming from my experience reading the attempts of artists to write. For whatever reason, most people think they can write, or that writing doesn't take as much skill, talent and practice as drawing or playing music or whatever. They're wrong.

[Orphangrinder]

Yeah, but how many artists on this site, who've been drawing for years, have made it into the industry? I read comics all the time by artists way worse than a lot of the people on this board, so it's not that the people here aren't talented enough. How many titles have you drawn for Marvel or DC?

How many titles have I drawn for Marvel or DC? None yet, but I've only been drawing comics a couple of years. I started working for pay that I could live on within a few months, and I'm currently in the middle of a graphic novel project for an indie company that's paying my bills. When I finish that, we'll see where I go from there. I don't know what the situation is with anyone else, but my experience thus far has been that if you're good enough to do the work, it's not terribly hard to find work.

I'm not suggesting professional artists should work for free, but the fact is, the rest of us are all in the same boat, trying to crack into the industry. Artists need writers as much as we need artists, there's just this skewed sense of value, where for some reason good writing is considered worthless by most artists.

I've never heard a sensible artist say that good writing is worthless -- but the fact is, in this industry, art is a more valuable commodity than writing. Note my choice of the word "commodity" -- that's what it is. An artist can draw one book a month if you're lucky. Most writers can write, what, four? There are FAR fewer writing slots in this industry, and there are probably more writers than artists who mistakenly think they're ready for the big time. That means that in the writer/artist relationship at the self-published/indie level, the balance of power is tipped waaaay in the artist's favor. It's just numbers.

EDIT: In addition, there's the fact that I can write some garbage story all by myself, draw it, photocopy it, staple it, hand it to an editor, and it'll get read. If what I'm really interested in selling is my art skills rather than my stories, that's all I need. A writer generally needs an artist to draw their scripts before any editor will look at it. That tips the power balance toward the artist even further.

[salmonguy]

But that's assuming all writers are of equal value. They're not. Most are pretty crap. Even most professionals in the comic industry are pretty crap. I'd say there are a lot more good artists out there than good writers.

If you could hook up with the next Neil Gaiman or Alan Moore, are you telling me it wouldn't majorly help launch your mainstream career? Because they're most likely out there right now, and they just don't have the money to afford you.

Tell me honestly what's going to be more beneficial to you in the long run, drawing bad comics that go nowhere for shit writers who can afford it, or doing five pages for the next Bendis in exchange for half ownership.

[Orphangrinder]

You're right -- if I could hook up with the next Neil Gaiman or Alan Moore, I'm sure it would help a lot -- assuming that he's going to take me along for the ride. I don't really have the time to do the research right now (should really be drawing), but what happened to the first artists that Gaiman and Moore worked with when they were doing their submissions? I'm going to take a wild guess and say that they aren't superstars. And how am I to predict which writer in my inbox is the next Gaiman? It's a crapshoot.

Anyway, this has gone a bit far afield from the initial topic, which I think has been well-covered.

[salmonguy]

The industry is a lot more geared towards creator owned properties now than it was, which means a new Alan Moore would have a lot more control over who his artist is once he gets picked up. At the same time though, a good writer's only going to showcase an artist's work, the artist still has to be good enough to benefit from the attention. Have you seen the art on Swamp Thing? It's pretty bad.

[Lingling]

If you want to write without depending on an artist, write prose.

I'm saying that as a writer who's had to admit that I'm not good enough at drawing to draw my own work. Annoying.