I refuse to read Ultimate Avengers- SPOILERS!

[John Shine]

If you are a fan of the title and have not read issue #4, do not read this.

I absolutely refuse to buy this book anymore after reading issue #4. I wondered how long it would take me to reach this point; I have not been a fan of Mark Millar's writing for some time (although I loved his run on SWAMP THING). He far too often throws out stuff he thinks would be cool without thinking through the full repercussions of his ideas. Sometimes entire events at Marvel are formed around these poorly thought out ideas. But this issue was the final straw. This wasn't just dumb, like having a blind Hawkeye drive cross country, or turning the Hulk and She-Hulk into lovers, or saying Hawkeye could kill someone from five feet away with a fingernail (physics, anyone?). No, what he did in this issue was morally reprehensible.

Captain America, Captain effing AMERICA, used kindergarten children as human shields. What the hell?!? This is the sort of thing middle eastern dictators do to protect their missile sites, saying, "You may attack me, but I know you won't bomb innocents." That is EXACTLY what Millar has Cap doing here. I wanted to throw up.

Is this what Millar thinks the USA is about? If so, why do we have him writing this book? Is Marvel so cynical that it is willing to let its icon of American virtues be portrayed in such a way? Sure we have seen times when Cap questioned orders and those in charge. As Americans we are supposed to do this. But he uses children here as shields against personal harm. That's the sort of thing the Red Skull does, not Cap.

I'm sure fans of the book will defend Millar, but I don't see it as something that can be defended. It is evil and inhumane. When Cap (the one I know and love, anyway) finds himself in a room of children with a villain hot on his heels, he turns and fights to defend those children at all risk to his personal well being. He doesn't go into that room intentionally, gambling that that adversary (who just the page before had no qualms about shooting up traffic) won't harm kids. That is just sick. That is the kind of writing I expect from Rob Liefeld.

Clearly Marvel has lost its moral center. Spider-Man makes a deal with the Devil to save a woman who would likely die of natural causes in a year anyway. Tony Stark creates a law, and then when enforcing said law, constantly says, "It's not me, it's the law." Captain America just outright quits in the middle of Civil War (Aren't we all glad he didn't say, "Too many civilians are in danger, we have to stop," during WW II?). If you pay close attention at Marvel right now, you will see that there are a lot of books of villains sitting around talking like very believable villains, but for some reason they can't seem to play the heroes right. This makes me sad beyond belief. I grew up on Marvel, and would like to think that some of the morality on display then could be found today, but I don't think that morality is a big issue for them right now.

And so, I will bid farewell to Ultimate Comics Avengers, and Mark Millar's Captain America who thinks it is cool to gamble the lives of children, because he is pissed off.

[Popninja]

Are they really up to #4 already? I just bought the first one, but that was the last one I physically saw on the shelf.

John, what you've described is one of the main reasons that I've chosen to leave Marvel as a whole. Despite my weakness for my favorite artists, I've pretty much given up on the company. It's being run by people who don't care about me at all. And I know that statement gets people up in arms. "Why does Marvel have to care about you?" Well, the Marvel I grew up with cared a lot about me. They shipped my books on time and cared that I was a young boy enjoying good stories that weren't being written just to shock 19-25 year old males.

Marvel is a flimsy, flailing husk of what it once was. I used to LOVE reading Marvel books. But now, these books are just made by these writers as a way to amuse themselves. They aren't thinking about readers at all. Bendis, with his smugness, is more concerned about how cool it is that he's tied together all of these huge, nonsensical crossovers from years back, before he's even bothered to understand that no one with a fixed budget could have even bothered to read any of those books.

I'm ranting now, so I'll stop. But I understand where you're coming from. These writers, Bendis and Millar, don't care at all about the CHARACTERS. It used to be about the CHARACTERS. But now it's about the creators. They don't care about how we grew up knowing these characters. That's all out the window. It's about what would be the coolest way(in their mind) to shock people. To maybe get a soundbyte on a news site.

Marvel is dead as long as Quesada runs the show.

[John Shine]

These writers, Bendis and Millar, don't care at all about the CHARACTERS. It used to be about the CHARACTERS. But now it's about the creators. They don't care about how we grew up knowing these characters. That's all out the window. It's about what would be the coolest way(in their mind) to shock people. To maybe get a soundbyte on a news site.

Marvel is dead as long as Quesada runs the show.

Amen, brother! Someone, I think it may have been Peter David, once said that the creators need to remember that these characters are bigger than them, and they will be here long after them too. I don't feel that is being kept in mind anymore.

Likewise, where is the strong editorial control that used to be the driving force? Where is the editor that should be standing up to these creators and saying, "No, you can't do that for a quick visceral thrill." But then again, the Editor-in-chief did sell Spidey's soul to the devil...

[DJ Kenobi]

I pretty much agree with you, Pop. I still buy Ed Brubaker's Captain America because I love Brubaker's writing, and I at least look at whatever Matt Fraction is writing for the same reason. But other than that I've stopped buying Marvel for the exact reasons that you've stated. And the couple books I do buy I've bought precisely because they were well written books about the characters. The last few years of the Iron Fist is a great example my problem with Marvel. Brubaker and Fraction co-wrote some really great stuff on Immortal Iron Fist, but only a year after they left most of it is wiped away to fit Iron Fist into the Dark Reign crap with Norman Osborne brainwashing Danny Rand or something.

I'll continue to buy a few books from great writers, but I have completely lost interest in the Marvel Universe as a whole.

[John Shine]

Ha! I got negative rep for this thread that read, "Settle down." My first ever. And all it took was Cap using human shields to bring it out...

[NickRocks]

millar ignores continuity and characterization as much as loeb. its entertaining, but i have to read it with a grain of salt almost. like enemy of the sate, millar has wolverine go beserk, but he never has to answer for it.

millar writes everything with a very sarcastic, slight anti-america overtone

marvel needs jim shooter back

[cbikle]

What was the full context of Cap using kids as shields ?

[Dri]

He used them knowing War Machine could not engage in using his
weaponary. Yes, one has to suspend disbelief as the issue before
that War Machine didn't hesitate killing innocent civilians.

The bottom line is that Cap made a calculated risk and he knew
War Machine wouldn't fire. Lazy writing? Maybe. But I think some
people are reading way too much into this. I think he's writing
the Ultimates like he wrote The Authority. The difference is that
Marvel characters are perceived to act heroically under any
circumstances.

[cbikle]

OK, that's an important distinction that the OP didn't mention.

Also, technically, Millar "created" Ultimate Cap, so I don't really see how anyone can see his portrayal of the character as "wrong".

Additionally, the Hulk-She Hulk thing is from the "Old Man Logan" storyline, which takes place in a dystopic alternate future run by super-villains; it's not in the official MU.

[Popninja]

Also, technically, Millar "created" Ultimate Cap, so I don't really see how anyone can see his portrayal of the character as "wrong".

That's a stretch. The characters are pretty identical because they couldn't skew too far from the 616 version. It's like Ultimate Spidey. You put them side-by-side and you can't tell the two apart. Sure, they tinkered with second tier characters quite a bit, but they didn't stray off the path at all with the core characters.

However, I must say, once the action is put into context, it changes my thoughts on it completely. I actually prefer the Ultimate universe, even though Loeb really effed it up with Ultimatum. But I've still laid Marvel to rest in my heart. My Marvel, the one I grew up with; the one that is lovingly collected in roughly 20 short boxes in my office, has been dead for quite a few years now.

[John Shine]

OK, that's an important distinction that the OP didn't mention.

Also, technically, Millar "created" Ultimate Cap, so I don't really see how anyone can see his portrayal of the character as "wrong".

Additionally, the Hulk-She Hulk thing is from the "Old Man Logan" storyline, which takes place in a dystopic alternate future run by super-villains; it's not in the official MU.

I genuinely am not trying to rant here; but, I do believe this to be a serious moral issue, and certainly worthy of debate, but it is not something in my mind that can be brushed over. (Seriously, if you have ever known me to rant needlessly, bring it up now.)

In the opening post, I said:

"When Cap (the one I know and love, anyway) finds himself in a room of children with a villain hot on his heels, he turns and fights to defend those children at all risk to his personal well being. He doesn't go into that room intentionally, gambling that that adversary (who just the page before had no qualms about shooting up traffic) won't harm kids."

But, to be perfectly clear, War Machine (not the one we know and love in the standard MU, but one that displayed no problems with killing civilians to achieve his goals as clearly was the point of the previous issue's scene with him) chases Captain America, on the run from authorities at that moment, through the streets, causing untold dollars in damage, until Cap leads him to a school full of kindergartners, betting he won't fire on him there.

Now in the context of garishly clothed action heroes, this may not seem so bad. I guess. But put that into a context that is easier to picture on the news: A lone unarmed man on the run from the police, who are armed and firing on him, leaps into the McDonalds Playland, knowing the police won't fire on him there. Could you possibly put this guy in jail long enough?

As for Millar having "created" this Cap, I'll give you that. Perhaps then the issue does fall on Editorial's shoulders for allowing such vile conduct from a character bearing their trademark.

[cbikle]

That's a stretch.

Not so much of a stretch; Ultimate Cap is more of a 1940's soldier and something of a hothead, whereas 616 Cap is more of a professional superhero and tends to be more statesmanlike in how he handles things.

Both Captain Americas are patriots, leaders and both protect the country, but 616 Cap is guided by doing so in the ideals and spirit of our country, while Ultimate Cap is much more pragmatic and serves country above all else.

616 Cap is Kennedy/Obama and Ultimate Cap is Teddy Roosevelt/Lyndon Johnson and a little bit of GW Bush.



The characters are pretty identical because they couldn't skew too far from the 616 version.

I dunno about that; Ultimate Quicksilver & Scarlet Witch are heavily implied to have an incestuous relationship, Ultimate Black Widow was a murderous triple-agent and Ultimate Hulk is more of a monster who rapes, kills and eats his opponents.

[PunkPenciler25]

ok so i guess i'm really behind here. i thought in ultimatum they killed off cap? i thought they were all done with the ultimate u and was just going to keep ultimate spiderman? idk all i have is the full ultimatum spiderman and looked over the ultimatum "guide" type graphic novel. so i know things like Strange gets his head blown open (pretty freakin sweet) and wolverine gets fried. (goddamned sin, that got me confused and heated but whatever)

so they're keeping the ultimate u?

[John Shine]

Ultimate Cap is much more pragmatic and serves country above all else.
Except for the two times (at least) that he has been on the run from governmental authorities thus far.

[salmonguy]

Personally I love Marvel as it is now, and find their older stuff almost unreadable. Civil War was one of the best things that happened to the 616 universe.
I think if you look through the history of super hero comics they present a fairly good representation of people's attitude to government. Back during World War 2 people believed all the propaganda without question, and you had Cap punching Hitler on the cover. Now the world has been let down by the American government too many times. Nobody can trust it anymore, let alone to do what is morally right if there's no benefit to the corporate elite. Marvel's more realistic, morally ambiguous slant reflects that. It's no longer so black and white because the world isn't either.
What Millar did with the original Ultimates was one of the most important things in main stream comics since Watchmen, and it matured the Marvel collective consciousness (with some obvious exceptions). Anything that encourages people to question power, authority, and those that claim the higher moral ground is fine by me.

[SHAMWOW!]

whats funny is that u guys hate marvel so much yet would still think their better than dc

[cbikle]

Whether you like the current direction or not, one thing that Marvel deserves credit for is making big, permanent changes in the status quo of their universe; there's not going to be any big magic Franklin Richards/Scarlet Witch-style reset button this time, like with Heroes Reborn.

I remember years back, John Byrne (in the early days of his craziness) saying that comics should only create the illusion of change, but nothing significant in a serialized comic should ever really change.

Also, Marvel characters finally feel like they're all in the same universe; in the 90's, the Spider-titles and X-titles always felt like they were in separate universes, mostly due to all the editorial fiefdoms that Marvel had at the time.

[Popninja]

Also, Marvel characters finally feel like they're all in the same universe; in the 90's, the Spider-titles and X-titles always felt like they were in separate universes, mostly due to all the editorial fiefdoms that Marvel had at the time.

But now they're TOO connected. I shouldn't have to buy 40+ comics a month to follow some epic, sweeping storyline that effects EVERY Marvel title.

It's ridiculous and I guarantee you they will change it back at some point. Funny you mention that they won't use some trick like Franklin Richards or Scarlet Witch, but that's essentially what they did to Spider-Man. They'll find some way to bring it all back into scope. Right now it's just too huge. What's the new big epic? Siege? Now they're taking it to the cosmos. I promise you something huge will compact it all back down.

[NickRocks]

Also, Marvel characters finally feel like they're all in the same universe; in the 90's, the Spider-titles and X-titles always felt like they were in separate universes, mostly due to all the editorial fiefdoms that Marvel had at the time.

not true. look at spiderman. he had his continuity erased but the rest of the marvel universe didnt.

[paladis]

I just recently started to read comics again, I picked up a bunch and was committed to reading more DC but slowly over the last 6 months I have completely migrated to Marvel again, but I'm not completely happy. I missed the whole story line of how Osborne took leadership of HAMMER, Osborn has always been evil in my world and I have a hard time grasping that he somehow became the head of a government agency that employees heroes to track down and apprehend threats, ....it just all seems really forced to me.

I agree on the separate universe feeling Marvel had when reading their comics, two heroes could be on the same block on the same day but would not encounter each other. It was as if everyone was in an alternate universe. They seem to have corrected that, but now it's geared towards making the most money possible by churning out constant crossovers. Now you're forced to buy titles that you may not normally have bought if you want to follow the story line.

[cbikle]

not true. look at spiderman. he had his continuity erased but the rest of the marvel universe didnt.

Right, but AFAIK, only two elements of his backstory were really affected: his marriage ending and Harry Osborn being alive again
(Gwen Stacy is still dead, right ?) and those two elements don't really affect the overall MU.

Those aren't really the kind of sweeping changes that will affect other titles.

[cbikle]

But now they're TOO connected. I shouldn't have to buy 40+ comics a month to follow some epic, sweeping storyline that effects EVERY Marvel title.

It's ridiculous and I guarantee you they will change it back at some point. Funny you mention that they won't use some trick like Franklin Richards or Scarlet Witch, but that's essentially what they did to Spider-Man. They'll find some way to bring it all back into scope. Right now it's just too huge. What's the new big epic? Siege? Now they're taking it to the cosmos. I promise you something huge will compact it all back down.

A few years back I would have agreed with you, but if they "magic wand" it back to pre-Civil War MU, it would seriously screw up continuity across the board (it would be like OMD squared).

If any kind of big reset button does happen, I don't think it'll happen until there's a new EIC and right now, I think Disney is happy with him.

[jbwill84]

I've always thought Ultimate Cap was an ass. I love 616 Cap, but Ultimate Cap is more up to date on how other countries perceive the US.

If you were willing to sit through Ultimatum, and just now decided to drop the Ultimate U, something is wrong, ha ha.

I agree that this crossover stuff needs to be cut down, but it sells like nothing else. Editorial says Siege will be the last one for awhile, but we'll see about that. I can't really complain about the MU right now. I enjoy all the books I get. I think Joe Quesada has done a great job handling the Marvel Universe. It's not perfect by any means, but he helped bring the company out of a terrible slump and there's no telling how it would have all ended up in the hands of anyone else.

[Random Hero 7]

i love the Ultimate U, i grew up on that stuff!
Im excited for the rest of the ultimate avengers, and
cant wait for thier sequel, ultimate avengers 2, and the soon
NEW ULTIMATES! But hey, its not for everyone and i kno that. Its
really for the new readers and those who love hard-core bad-ass super heroes!

[JPS017]

Regarding Captain America using children as human shields, I haven't read the issue so need some more info before I decide.

Were these kids REALLY annoying spolit brats? Maybe they deserved it.