Civil War TPB

[Juan2.0]

I just finished reading the Civil War TPB (collecting issues 1-7) this morning and man, that was pretty damn good. It really threw me for a loop when they killed that one character...I definitely did not see that coming. And McNiven's art is just phenomenal! How does this guy do it and keep the quality and consistency up? I did notice at the end of the book they show his original pencils and the finished inks for one of the promo posters for this series and it looks like his inker really goes over his work and adds all the little detailings and costume accessories to McNiven's figures. I also noticed that his pencilling is pretty damn loose compared to what I expected to see from him. (I'm basing that off of what I saw in the Young Guns sketchbook Marvel put out a couple years ago featuring McNiven's pencils). He's come a long way since his Crossgen days. Good stuff.

But anyway, I'm sure most of you already read the series, but I wanted to wait for the TPB to come out so I could get the entire run in one shot without missing an issue...and I must say, it's a good read. Kind of gets me interested to see what else Marvel is putting out there right now.

Oh and as a bonus, the TPB also includes all of the Michael Turner sketch covers in the back of the book, that in itself makes the book worth buying. Better than paying $80+ apiece for the individual issues when you can get them all here in one shot for a fraction of the price. And not only that, but the book also includes all of Mike's covers in full color plus his variant edition covers. Sweeeeeeet!

So all in all, I liked it. Well worth my $16.00 delivered that I paid for it through eBay. :)

[bindlestitch]

I want to get this just for Mcniven's art. I would buy it in an instant if it wasn't colored, just raw pencils or inks.
But yeah I bought the New Avengers tpb collecting his run the other day so this is on the list.

[Bruce]

I was very, very unimpressed with this story line.
I am not a big Marvel fan to start with, but this series was just bad on so many levels.
So poorly handled from the start. So many WTF? moments in it that just didn't work. The art was good and that was about it. That said, you just stated that his pencils were loose and the inker added quite a bit. The layouts and the Figures I thought were really stiff and uninteresting for the most part. Save few panels. So it looks lie I really enjoyed the Inker and Colorist. The color was Amazing.

And McNiven's art is just phenomenal! How does this guy do it and keep the quality and consistency up?
He didn't do it. He was late on book four and because of it Marvel had to delay their whole line of books in almost the whole Marvel Universe.
That also puched back the whole CW mini.
Everything about this series was bad.

[Popninja]

Everything about this series was bad.

Damn near everything, you're right. I had such high expectations for this mini, but it was a HUGE letdown. Horrible writing; characterizations so off base they were laughable, especially Iron Man and Mr. Fantastic. And the whole premise, when finally realized, just didn't work at all. It defied all logic. The ending was the worst part, with Cap turning himself in. Poor poor poor excuse for an ending.

The art was great, but like Bruce said, McNiven almost singlehandedly sank that whole crossover due to not having his part done on schedule. Civil War, the mini, was supposed to be the foundation of the entire storyline. When they had to hold everything up, it threw everything off.

Story: D-
Art: A-

[Crimson Spider]

Yeah, Iron Man's characterization was off. If this was handled better, I'm sure it would have improved the overall story. However, as a What If--? story, it's pretty good. Too bad it took place in regular continuity.

My biggest two complaints about CW were 1)Bringing back Black Goliath just to kill him off. That was lame and a slap in the face for longtime fans. 2)Spider-Man's unmasking. Both were done for shock value and felt cheap.

Aside from that and other relatively minor flaws, I enjoyed this story. It wasn't an instant classic by any standard, but it was a fun ride.

[Popninja]

I had forgotten the unmasking; that's how unimpressed I was with the story.

The problem with unmasking a character is that, after all is said and done, there is now absolutely no reason for that character to wear a mask.

It's like Rey Mysterio Jr. being unmasked in WCW, and then coming to WWE a couple of years later wearing a mask again. What's the point now?

[bindlestitch]

I bought the tpb this weekend. I have to agree that the story left a lot to be desired. I expected more from Millar.
The worst thing about it imo is the $25.00 price tag. :eek:
But it was worth it to me just to see Mcniven's work.

[JPJ]

Civil War is a very prettily drawn piece of crap.


I about flipped when at Waldon's some employee had it as his "Pick of the Month" and had written in that it was "So much better than Watchmen! It has more action and better art!"

Yeah....

[Logan]

lol. better than watchmen. did the kid have a steel rod through his brain or something to justify such a ludicrous assertion?

[Juan2.0]

Personally, I didn't like Watchmen. Just wasn't my thing. Interesting story, but overalll...it didn't really do much for me.

As for the Civil War TPB...some of you guys take this comic book shit way too seriously. :eek:

[Popninja]

Personally, I didn't like Watchmen. Just wasn't my thing. Interesting story, but overalll...it didn't really do much for me.

As for the Civil War TPB...some of you guys take this comic book shit way too seriously. :eek:

What do you mean by that? The story is either good or not good. In this case, Civil War was not good. Yes, the art was exceptional, but that wasn't enough. Unless you're buying these things just to look at the pretty pictures, you should be able to accept that a lot of people thought Civil War, the story, sucked.

Have you actually read the story, Juan? All you mentioned about the actual story was "when they killed that one character." I would be more interested in what else you think made it pretty damn good...aside from the artwork.

[Juan2.0]

You know, as much as I would like to argue with you, Mr. Seriously High and Mighty, I don't think I'm going to waste my time...it's pointless and I have better things to do. Besides, I'm still on probation on here...and I'm not getting the boot over something as piddily as this. I never said it was GREAT...but I don't think it's as bad as some of you are making it out to be. I just see it as entertainment. Either you were entertained or you weren't. It's all in the eye of the beholder. ;)

[Popninja]

All I asked you was what about it made you think it was pretty damn good. That's not wanting to argue; it's merely wanting a more detailed point of view from you. It amazes me how easy it is for someone to take a simple question and turn it into something else. If you read Civil War, it should be real simple to tell me(us) what you liked about the story, or even disliked, if anything.

Is this really what you consider arguing, Juan?

[Juan2.0]

It is if we are already not seeing eye to eye on the particular subject.

I tried to keep my initial post on this topic vague to keep it spoiler free in case anyone who clicks on this thread hasn't read it yet. I just enjoyed the story for what it was (for the most part...there were some things I didn't care for)...but overall I didn't find it as weak as what everyone is claiming it to be. And this is coming from a guy who hates crossover/run through all the titles + a miniseries crap.

[ielle77]

anyone know if they've come out with the iron man civil war trade paperback? Seriously if you don't read the Iron Man Civil war stuff, he really comes off like a dick. and you fail to get the full picture of BOTH sides of the issue. However if you read it Tony's opinion kinda makes sense... although he utterly messed up with the villain idea.

also curious if they're going to do a fallen son trade paperback
where should i look to find out? Marvel.com??:confused:

[DJ Kenobi]

I tried to keep my initial post on this topic vague to keep it spoiler free in case anyone who clicks on this thread hasn't read it yet.
Never be afraid to put spoilers in Comics Analysis. When CA was first envisioned it was supposed to only be for detailed discussion and analysis of particular instances of the medium, aka, detailed and insightful reviews and discussion about comics. We wanted to do our best to stay away from "I liked this book. What did you think?" Or arguments about whether Batman could be Superman or something, that's for the Fanboys Unleashed forum. I've been letting it get a little slack in here about what I don't boot over to general discussion because (A) getting someone to take the time to write a well thought out review is tough, I know this. It's time consuming. And (B) I was just happy to see some activity in the forum. But this is hopefully a place to pick apart the medium with respect and intelligence. What about the story was good enough? Or what about the story was made it so weak? Specifically. What about the art? Not just it was good or bad, but was the story telling a part of the plot failure? Was pacing sacrificed to provide more space for splash pages? Get as into the comic as you want and don't worry about spoilers.

Just a quick plug for some of the older reviews that are good examples what we hope for from Comics Analysis:

Persepolis (http://www.penciljack.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50969)

Carnet de Voyage (http://www.penciljack.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51635)

Shaolin Cowboy (http://www.penciljack.com/forum/showthread.php?t=54406)

David Lapham's Detective Comics run (http://www.penciljack.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58236)

Akira (http://www.penciljack.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56369)

[Popninja]

anyone know if they've come out with the iron man civil war trade paperback? Seriously if you don't read the Iron Man Civil war stuff, he really comes off like a dick. and you fail to get the full picture of BOTH sides of the issue. However if you read it Tony's opinion kinda makes sense... although he utterly messed up with the villain idea.

I'll have to give that a look see. Marvel really soured me on the character after reading Civil War.

[ielle77]

i kinda feel bad for him now (tony). I mean sure he made his bed but he did it for a reason (trying to protect his friends is a weird way) and then it backfired HUGELY and to top if off if you read the fallen son stuff you get a sense the Tony feels really guilty for everything (which ok he should). I think they're sllllowly trying to redeem him. He means well he just gets stuck in this sense that his way is the right way. which that kinda fits for a guy who is the head of a giant weapons manufacturing industy and super super smart.

[Teratophile]

I had forgotten the unmasking; that's how unimpressed I was with the story.

The problem with unmasking a character is that, after all is said and done, there is now absolutely no reason for that character to wear a mask.

It's like Rey Mysterio Jr. being unmasked in WCW, and then coming to WWE a couple of years later wearing a mask again. What's the point now?

it keeps debris from getting in his mouth and face when he's webslinging. duh.

[Deth]

for all the potential that this story had it was very poorly done as far as writing is concerned. Many of the characters acted out of character to facilitate the storyline. Especially Mr Fantastic. The side stories seemed to inconsiquential that they made no impact on the story at all. In Fantastic Four, Thing goes to France and fights and Sue mopes around and complains about Reed. (thats original)
The Main Story itself CW just seemed to broken up. Like it wasnt a complete story. I was very dissapointed and after the series ended with the death of CAPTAIN AMERICA. I have not bought a comic since.

[Huerta]

I liked it just fine. Only picked up the main mini and I dont have 40+ yrs. of knowledge of the characters, so they acted normal to me.

[Popninja]

I liked it just fine. Only picked up the main mini and I dont have 40+ yrs. of knowledge of the characters, so they acted normal to me.

Well how nice it is to be ignorant of the history of those characters then. Because I'm older, and have been reading and enjoying these characters for over 25 years, let's just forget all that because Skippy McYoungun doesn't have a clue that Tony Stark and Reed Richards wouldn't be such boneheads.

[Deth]

I wouldnt say all that. If Aztek liked it then he liked it. Theres nothing wrong with that. But, For me knowing what little I do know about the characters histories. Every character was out of character and it just made for a frustrating read. If you look back at FF history you will see many scenarios where Doctor Doom had gained godlike powers and could distroy the world with ease. But Reed Richards never once said "Well probably shows that Doom will probably win so we might as well give up and serve him." Thats exactly what Reed did in this series. It pretty much took away any notion that Reed was a hero.
I dont know much about Ironman so I cant camment much on him. But I do think that Captain America's actions were very out of character. As was Spidermans. Now I can see how this miniseries could lead to new readers. Especially since it characterizes the heroes in a new way. But Marvel does so at the cost of it's older readers who have read far too much history to see it all wiped away with one storyline.

Now in probably five years, Cap will be alive again and everyone will be back to normal. Thats the way comics are. But until then I aint buying another comic. Im sure others feel the same. I have given 52 a chance yet though. I might buy the trade and check it out.

[Huerta]

Well how nice it is to be ignorant of the history of those characters then. Because I'm older, and have been reading and enjoying these characters for over 25 years, let's just forget all that because Skippy McYoungun doesn't have a clue that Tony Stark and Reed Richards wouldn't be such boneheads.

Those 2 were always dicks, so I dont think the way they were being written was too far off like some fans claimed. Oh and Tony got his heart injury from the middle-east, not Vietnam anymore. Stuff changes and it sucks for the older readers.

[Teratophile]

I didn’t think it was so out of reeds personality to act the way he did. He’s the kinda guy that would conform as long as it was for the greater good. Also it’s not in his best interest to go against the people who fund him.

Ironman is just a dick. He always has been a dick.

[Popninja]

Those 2 were always dicks, so I dont think the way they were being written was too far off like some fans claimed. Oh and Tony got his heart injury from the middle-east, not Vietnam anymore. Stuff changes and it sucks for the older readers.

Reed was never a dick, but I'll go along with Stark acting like one at times. Doesn't change my opinion of the story, which I've read more than once because it was so incredulous it deserved a re-read. IMO a lot of the characters were off. It's the older readers that they're writing this stuff for anyway. Only older people with good cash flow can afford to really get into comic books nowadays.

[Crestmere]

It was an ambitious project.

Not all of it worked.

What I've noticed from other fan boards is that the people saw the series they wanted. The pro-reg people especially.

My biggest criticism of the series was that it never went in to a human rights angle. One side argued for the Nuremberg laws and the other side was forced in to rebelling against the government but nothing regarding the human rights side of things came up.

Except in Frontline. Which was an interesting series. I did love the idea of drawing all of the historical paralells. the problem was that not all of them worked, especially to Americans, who have no real collective memory regarding history, to the point where looking at something that happened a month ago is taking a pretty broad view of things.

[JPJ]

Just finished reading the Annihilation books 1 and 2 and I gotta say this was the better Marvel event when comparing it to Civil War.

[Huerta]

For the guys who "hate" MArvel, youre missing out.

[Popninja]

For the guys who "hate" MArvel, youre missing out.

As far as I'm concerned, you guys have already missed out. Marvel isn't even close to as great as it used to be, and Civil War is no example to give on what we're "missing out" on.

[Huerta]

Read WWH#1 and New Avengers #31

[Crimson Spider]

NA #31 was yet another drawn out issue that felt like it could have taken two pages to tell. But aside from Bendis' awful dialogue and nonexistent story, the real tragedy is Yu's art, the only part of the book that's genuinely good, and how poorly it's being handled.

[Huerta]

TEchnically, most stories can be told in 2 pages. But if you want a little action, convo and story it'll take more than that. I liked it cause it also connects with the Illuminati, which I love as well.

[Crimson Spider]

Not all stories feel like they're being prolonged specifically for the inevitable trade. And I'm sorry, but twenty pages of a makeshift Avengers team fighting ninjas (something that's been happening for FOUR issues) is not my idea of good storytelling.

[kid vorpal]

Not all stories feel like they're being prolonged specifically for the inevitable trade. And I'm sorry, but twenty pages of a makeshift Avengers team fighting ninjas (something that's been happening for FOUR issues) is not my idea of good storytelling.

Well, judging by the last page of that New Avengers ish, they weren't all ninjas. Heh.

[Crimson Spider]

Well, judging by the last page of that New Avengers ish, they weren't all ninjas. Heh.

I've learned years ago to not buy into the hype. Seriously. But even now, whenever a comic I'm following promises a "last page that will destroy the Earth and will force us to expedite any terraforming projects so we can find a new inhabitable planet to read the next issue on"...well, I get a little excited. So I expected at least some kind of shocking revelation. We never got what was promised, but what we did get has potential. Depending on how it's handled, upcoming stories will piss off a lot of people. I'm not going to judge just yet.

[Juan2.0]

Not all stories feel like they're being prolonged specifically for the inevitable trade. And I'm sorry, but twenty pages of a makeshift Avengers team fighting ninjas (something that's been happening for FOUR issues) is not my idea of good storytelling.But it's blended together with the other story of what's already happened while they were at the house...so I think that keeps things interesting.

[Crimson Spider]

This last issue, though, just seemed like they were milking it for the last three pages.

[Huerta]

You know who drags out fights? Superman

That alien could take out most of his villains in 3 panels.

[Chris Major]

Civil War... there's a lot to be said about it.

Story - good idea, poorly executed. Let's not even point out the inconsistencies between individual issues. To those who think Reed Richards is out of character, look up Grant Morrison's Fantastic Four 1-2-3-4, the official start of Reed Richards' redefining as an elastic guy who uses it to shove his head up his arse so far it takes his wife about 3 minutes in his presence to consider cheating on him with an aquatic version of Lord Flauntleroy with a severe case of anti-socialism.
A lot of the dialogue in Civil War was monologue, and I could say fully 75% of what is being said could have been said by ANY superhero character on Earth. Really.
The last page does very, very, very little to redeem Tony Stark of his actions. It only makes him look like a power-hungry armored prick who gives himself good conscience by guarding all the heroes secret identities. Very poor. He reminds me more and more of that alternate version of him that we see in Exiles, plotting to rule the Earth unopposed by everyone. Looking up his series is pointless argumentation: people in and out of the business always look at the main event to define a maxiseries.
Spidey's unmasking was too disrespectful, but had been long incoming. Peter always thought about it. I hear he's having it rough ever since, and Spidey's was always a character whose best stories happened in the grip of pathos and angst.

Art: I was impressed with McNiven, and his pencils were very enjoyable. However a few things bothered me.
First, I don't know who to credit for the lettering IN the panels themselves, just as signs and stuff, but they were incredibly poorly executed. They did not meld at all with the artwork. They were there, they were popping in your face, way too apparent.
Another flaw, at least for me, was the use of way too much color holding by the colorist. When you fade out the lines on a character's face to smooth it out you take away quite a chunk of the penciller's interpretation of the character. I remember more vividly that page where some rebels are in the diner assuming their new secret identities. All the line in their faces are color held and smoothed out. That's too much gimmicky for my tastes. Same thing with a throughly-apparent use of filters and such PS FX all throughout the book. Too much takes away from the art. I fullyt hink the colorist (don't remember who) stole McNiven's thunder entirely.
It's also difficult to make McNiven take all the blame for the delays, since he was very sick for a while. But it's also tough not too. I won't go in-depth on that one, it's sorta "damned if you do, damned if you don't" kinda deal.

That's my Civil War. Worth looking at.... reading, not so much. But it's nevertheless an interesting footnote in comics history. It's a title that says, "Marvel cannot make a maxiseries as well as DC could."

[Crimson Spider]

Now that you've said that, I'm reminded of another thing: I hate that crossovers like Civil War put the company's entire universe on hold. Nearly every book's story is interrupted and writers are supposed to somehow deal with it. Some writers cope better than others (Peter David on X-Factor and Warren Ellis' Nextwave come to mind), but I can't really blame the writers who fail to do so.



You know who drags out fights? Superman

That alien could take out most of his villains in 3 panels.

Agreed. This is why I'm turned off by Superman's books. I can only list a handful of books in which Superman was handled in an interesting way.

[Chris Major]

I think it's Orson Scott Card who once said that it is far more compeling to tell stories about a guy like Batman than Superman, because Batman remains, at heart, a simple human, whereas to battle Superman you have no choice but to bring out kryptonite at some point. The stuff is supposed to be rare, for heaven's sake.

That's another problem with never-ending comic franchises: escalation. You always want a new gimmick to wow the readership. After 50 years, you sorta run out. I mean, Energy Superpowers Superman? That was so lame.

I'm more attracted to something like Hellblazer: John Constantine is one of the very, very few comic heroes out there who has consistently aged along with the comic in real time. That means it's going to end someday. Besides, the superhero genre is becoming less and less appealing with time. It's getting less and less like novelty and more and more like Kraft Dinner: it works at times, but everyday, you sorta get sick of it.

[Deth]

Frontline started off as a good read but by the end it simply became a build up to the new Thunderbolts line-up.

[Popninja]

They should do with Superman what they did with Hulk. Send him off to other planets to face completely brand new villains with powers that rival his. He shouldn't be on earth at all. Earth should be completely obliterated, and Superman should roam the galaxy looking to help other planets. But no Earth-2 or anything like that, though. Just galaxy-roaming Superman.

[Bruce]

I'm more attracted to something like Hellblazer: John Constantine is one of the very, very few comic heroes out there who has consistently aged along with the comic in real time..


Hellblazer has always been one of the best books on the market.

[Teratophile]

As far as I'm concerned, you guys have already missed out. Marvel isn't even close to as great as it used to be, and Civil War is no example to give on what we're "missing out" on.



When was marvel greater? I remember unsophisticated stories/art when I was growing up…and when reading older comics. Once in awhile you'll have a frank miller come along and shake things up.

I think the quality of marvel has been consistently top notch these last couple of years.

[Popninja]

I think the quality of marvel has been consistently top notch these last couple of years.

And I disagree with you.

Once upon a time, Marvel employed giants like Byrne, Davis, Simonson, Starlin, Perez, etc, etc. All these guys turned in top quality work and ALL of it was on time.

They still have one of the best working for them now, their savior JRJr., who they consistently use to bang out a great story quick. Lucky them because no other Marvel artist could get World War Hulk out on a regular schedule and make it look as good as JRJr. can.

I get it. Comics are high art now and it's all about how much you can shove on a page, ala Hitch, but the comics I remember were more than just well drawn. They were lots of fun and came out on time.

[Juan2.0]

Jeez...quit living in the past, ya old fart. ;)

[Huerta]

And I disagree with you.

Once upon a time, Marvel employed giants like Byrne, Davis, Simonson, Starlin, Perez, etc, etc. All these guys turned in top quality work and ALL of it was on time.

They still have one of the best working for them now, their savior JRJr., who they consistently use to bang out a great story quick. Lucky them because no other Marvel artist could get World War Hulk out on a regular schedule and make it look as good as JRJr. can.

I get it. Comics are high art now and it's all about how much you can shove on a page, ala Hitch, but the comics I remember were more than just well drawn. They were lots of fun and came out on time.

Sure about that?

Bagley, Yu, Frank, Aja, Garney, McGuinness etc...

[Popninja]

Cross McGuinness off that list. He's not always on time.

Gary Frank is good but he's no JRJr.

Yu is good too, but he's not JRJr.

Much respect to Bagley, but he's also no JRJr.

Don't care for Garney, and he's no JRJr either.

Remember, I said "make it look as good as JRJr. can."

I've never heard of this Aja person.

And Juan, don't hate me because I come from a time where I could toss a dollar across a counter and grab two comics and still have enough money left for a candy bar.

[Huerta]

Nice come back, there. lol

Of course theyre not jrJr, theyre their own person. And half those guys are better than JrJr.

[Teratophile]

you know why those guys were always on time? cause the stuff they were doing wasnt that complicated.


and there wasnt cool videogames to distract. thems were simpler times.

[Juan2.0]

And Juan, don't hate me because I come from a time where I could toss a dollar across a counter and grab two comics and still have enough money left for a candy bar. You're acting like I wasn't around back then...I remember those days as well...but they are long gone, pal. Sorry, but I look towards the future to see what they can come up with next. I already lived the past...once was enough for me. ;)

Also, I gotta ask this...if you don't like the way they are running Marvel comics and the current way artists do their jobs...then why do you buy their comics?!?!? I just don't get that...there are all types of comics and companies out there today...you don't like one company, then go find something you do like and give them your hard-earned money.

[Popninja]

Also, I gotta ask this...if you don't like the way they are running Marvel comics and the current way artists do their jobs...then why do you buy their comics?!?!? I just don't get that...there are all types of comics and companies out there today...you don't like one company, then go find something you do like and give them your hard-earned money.

I've bought ONE Marvel comic in the last 4 months: Ultimates 2 #13. It's the first time in 25 years that I've stopped buying Marvel comics. Yeah, I give them a glance over at the shop or at Borders, but I no longer buy them. Clearly, I'm not in their demographic any longer.

I've considered purchasing the next Astonishing X-Men trade because that's the single comic from Marvel that I miss the most.

[Popninja]

...half those guys are better than JrJr.

The unfortunate thing is that a lot of young people truly believe that even though it is not true.

[bindlestitch]

And half those guys are better than JrJr.
:eek:
Wait , let me fix this.

And all those guys are not nearly as good as JrJr.
There we go. Much better.

[Huerta]

:eek:
Wait , let me fix this.

There we go. Much better.

I know what I said. Ive studied all those guys and each have their strengths and weaknesses. Dont be acting like JrJr is the god of comic art. No.

[Deth]

I like JRjr as well. But I look at Travis Charest's work and i gotta tell yah. There are many new artists out there that have improved the game.

and if you wanna talk about deadlines. I could draw a bunch of stickfigures and meet deadlines. I think its more about the quality of work.

Not saying that JRjr's work lacks quality. He's a great artist.

But other artists with DIFFERING styles are offering something that appeals to others.

I grew up on Jim Lee I thought no one could trump that man. Although he is still a great artist I can think of 10 artist off the top of my head that I now think are better than him.

Its just a matter of opinion.

[Popninja]

I know what I said. Ive studied all those guys and each have their strengths and weaknesses. Dont be acting like JrJr is the god of comic art. No.

He's not "the god of comic art" but he's definitely better than Mark Bagley, Ron Garney, Gary Frank, Ed McGuinness and, yes, even Leinil Yu. I don't know what you've been studying, but you're off the mark on this one. And, yeah, that's my own personal opinion.

I still don't know who "Aja" is.

[Huerta]

He's not "the god of comic art" but he's definitely better than Mark Bagley, Ron Garney, Gary Frank, Ed McGuinness and, yes, even Leinil Yu. I don't know what you've been studying, but you're off the mark on this one. And, yeah, that's my own personal opinion.

I still don't know who "Aja" is.

http://www.arune.com/images/IronFistCvr02.jpg

[bindlestitch]

I know what I said. Ive studied all those guys and each have their strengths and weaknesses. Dont be acting like JrJr is the god of comic art. No.

I think if there was a god of comic art, JrJr would be in the running for the title.
I love all those guys you mentioned in your first post but without a doubt JrJr is the best for my money. If I had a short deadline and needed beautiful art and I had an unlimited budget, the first person I would call would be him. And I'd wager that most editors in the industry would do the same. He consistently produces high quality, dynamic art and you never have to wait on a comic he's doing because he hasn't met his deadline.
Just my thoughts.

[DJ Kenobi]

I love all those guys you mentioned in your first post but without a doubt JrJr is the best for my money. If I had a short deadline and needed beautiful art and I had an unlimited budget, the first person I would call would be him. And I'd wager that most editors in the industry would do the same.

For me, Mike Wieringo would be on that short list. He has all the characteristics previously described, plus I feel he has the ability to draw his characters with more subtle emotional nuances. And his sense of narrative is impeccable. All around I'm just a fan. Plus he has one of the best sketch blogs around :D

[Popninja]

Wieringo is quite awesome. He doesn't seem to be Marvel's goto guy, though. But damn if they don't hit up JRJr quite often, from the Sentry mini to the Eternals and now World War Hulk. The man's on fi-yah.

[JPJ]

Aja is good but his art is very dark/pulpish.

For something as big as WWH, Aja's art would not mesh well.

Don't get me wrong, Aja's art is awesome and Iron Fist is one of my top five right now, but he's now WWH artist.

I'm going to have to agree with Popninja on the artists.


I loves me some Gary Frank, Ed McGuinness, Leinil Yu, etc etc

But their storytelling skills aren't as up to par as JRJr and none of them come close to touching JRJr's ability to keep deadlines.

Yes, Mark Bagley could but he's also like Aja. Just doesn't fit the "huge event comic".

[Huerta]

Aja is good but his art is very dark/pulpish.

For something as big as WWH, Aja's art would not mesh well.

Don't get me wrong, Aja's art is awesome and Iron Fist is one of my top five right now, but he's now WWH artist.

I'm going to have to agree with Popninja on the artists.


I loves me some Gary Frank, Ed McGuinness, Leinil Yu, etc etc

But their storytelling skills aren't as up to par as JRJr and none of them come close to touching JRJr's ability to keep deadlines.

Yes, Mark Bagley could but he's also like Aja. Just doesn't fit the "huge event comic".

That doesnt make much sense. JrJr doesnt have an "event style" hes just simple and straight to the point. And he wouldnt mesh well with a lot of books out there depending on their tone and concept. And out of those guys I mentioned Frank, Garney and Bagley's storytelling are on par. And Aja is a guy who would work better on dark and gritty comics, not Hulk, Superman or any ish like that.

Im judging these guys purely on skill, not nostalgia or what I grew up with.

[kid vorpal]

For me, Mike Wieringo would be on that short list. He has all the characteristics previously described, plus I feel he has the ability to draw his characters with more subtle emotional nuances. And his sense of narrative is impeccable. All around I'm just a fan. Plus he has one of the best sketch blogs around :D

I've loved Wieringo's work ever since his run on Flash back in the day - started collecting it the moment I saw his first issue, and dropped it the second he moved on to other projects.

Great stuff.

[Popninja]

I'm judging these guys purely on skill, not nostalgia or what I grew up with.

Nice.

I'm judging them the same way. You may be a really good artist, but don't think for a second you have some sort of inside track on who's more skilled. If you're judging on skill and putting JRJr. below guys like Yu, Frank, and Bagley, then you don't know what you are talking about. It has nothing to do with nostalgia and everything to do with skill level.

JRJr. is above all of those guys skill-wise. If you can't see that, as an artist yourself, then I don't know what to tell you, Az.

[Logan]

yeah, JRJR stomps most of those guys when it comes to composition and staging, storytelling and backgrounds.

[Dri]

Yeh, if your father is John Romita, you better be good. Learn from the one of the best. How good is that?

[Huerta]

Nice.

I'm judging them the same way. You may be a really good artist, but don't think for a second you have some sort of inside track on who's more skilled. If you're judging on skill and putting JRJr. below guys like Yu, Frank, and Bagley, then you don't know what you are talking about. It has nothing to do with nostalgia and everything to do with skill level.

JRJr. is above all of those guys skill-wise. If you can't see that, as an artist yourself, then I don't know what to tell you, Az.

I like JrJr more than Bagley, so I am a fan of JrJr. U asked who is as good or better and I brought some names. He's human lik the rest of them, which means, he has strengthes and weaknesses like evryone else. If u think JrJr is above Yu and McGuinness on anatomy, design and faciel expressions, then I dont know what to say. No one is perfect in their profession, so u wont hear me call anyone a "god" or "master" of anything.

[Popninja]

If u think JrJr is above Yu and McGuinness on anatomy, design and faciel expressions, then I dont know what to say.

Howzabout "You're right, Pop." ;)

[Deth]

I have always prefered Adam Kuberts art over JrJr

[Huerta]

And I prefer Art Adams over both those guys. too bad he's slow, but I can see why.

[Crimson Spider]

I must say, John Romita, Jr.'s art has never looked better to me than when it was inked by Al Williamson. Holy crap! The JR, Jr./Al Williamson art team is easily in my top five of all time. I'll have to look up those issues and scan some pages.

Which reminds me: Say what you will about the Clone Saga, but it gave us the greatest assemblage of artists on all four of the Spider-books. We had Romita, Jr. inked by Williamson on Spider-Man; Bagley on Amazing; Sal Buscema inked by Bill Sienkiewicz and later by Williamson on Spectacular; and Dan Jurgens inked by Klaus Janson on Sensational. The Spider-books never looked better. When Bagley, Buscema, and Jurgens ended their runs, they were replaced by Steve Skroce, the amazing Luke Ross, and Mike Wieringo, respectively, which wasn't a bad bargain either.

[Crimson Spider]

Wow, this took longer than I thought. The comics were at the very top of my closet. I couldn't find the Onslaught issue or issue 75, both of which were really cool.

The first 4 pages are a sequence in which Ben Reilly, who thought he was the real Peter Parker at the time, was waging an inner battle with the Carnage symbiote:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/CSD/105e8790.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/CSD/fb3d6e73.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/CSD/ba5de9eb.jpg

[Crimson Spider]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/CSD/16c127d2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/CSD/8751f110.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/CSD/947abbd2.jpg

[Crimson Spider]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/CSD/9d150d4d.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/CSD/39493786.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/CSD/081f380e.jpg

[Crimson Spider]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/CSD/9d090e5b.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/CSD/7157dee0.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/CSD/73b51608.jpg

[Popninja]

And I prefer Art Adams over both those guys. too bad he's slow, but I can see why.

Now you're talking! Art Adams is my all time favorite artist.

CS, you're right about the JRJr/Williamson combo. They are one my favorite penciler/inker teams of all time, too. Absolutely amazing together.

[DJ Kenobi]

So does anybody have anymore to say about Civil War? Just curious since the last 30 posts in this Civil War thread seem to have nothing to do with the Civil War thread ;)

Good conversation though. :D

[Huerta]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/CSD/9d150d4d.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/CSD/39493786.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/CSD/081f380e.jpg

That is the JrJr I know. Im not feeling his recent work tho, starting with the Sentry. It's good and all but it looks rushed and lacks consistancy.

[bindlestitch]

I would agree with you there. I though wwhulk was sub par for JrJr. It looked really rushed.