Writing For An Artist

[Kimo]

Writing for an artist:

I read this, and wanted to post it here.

Steve Lieber, artist of White Out and Detective Comics:

" There are several strategies involved in tailoring one's writing to the artist. On the most basic level, it means writing about the things they like to draw and avoiding their weaknesses. If an artist draws conspicuously unattractive women, a writer should keep that in mind when writing a story in which a woman's beauty is an important plot point. If the artist likes drawing dogs and can depict all the nuances of canine behavior, it'd be a good idea to write something about dogs for him.. .
...There is a risk of typecasting when a writer does this, but (much as it pains me to say this) typecasting often happen for a reason. Really good writers will sometimes spot previously unrevealed capabilities in an artist and write for that, and the results can be breathtaking. And sometimes they just get lucky and push the artist in a direction he or she was ready to go.

Most of the content of a comics story is in the pictures. Imagine the same script, dilligently illustrated by Charles Schulz, George Perez and S. Clay Wilson. You'd have three completely different stories. Every artist, no matter how hard he works to communicate the writer's ideas, brings his own understanding of the world to any script he illustrates. A writer with an understanding of his collaborator's work is better prepared to write stories that make sense in that context."



Personally, I remember a 2am phone call years ago .

"Hello?"

"What are doing to me?"

"Excuse me?"

"I can't make it work"

After a moment, I realized it was an artist working on my one of my scripts. He had taken two shots of tequila and had finally worked up the nerve to talk to me. The more I talked with him, the more I realized it wasn't that he couldn't make the story work-- it was he couldn't make the story work in the fashion that I'd written it. We walked through the story, tinkering with angles, character details, panels-- in the end, minor details. After looking at his pages, I made my mental notes-- he could draw a mean piece of city, couldn't draw birds, but could detail a diverse crowd scene.

I don't bring this up assuming I'm talking with a group that is currently working with artist. It's as much about developing a mindset-- thinking of your work beyond your own concepts and vision. Flexability. Willingness to adapt. Not becoming so calcified by your own perception of how your story should turn out-- that instead of bending to consider your artist's imput, that things become brittle-- even shattering in frustration.

The moment your own ideas become sacrosanct, you open yourself to the worst kind of excess.

I'm not speaking of watering your work to accomodate an artist's weakness-- the opposite actually. Gear yourself to work and look for strengths, and enhance them.

kimo

Steve Lieber's impressive work can be seen at :

http://www.unrewarding.com/steve

I encourage anyone to check it out.

[pitchbright]

Thanks for posting this, Kimo. Steve Lieber is as sharp and insightful as he is talented.

Your own insight is valuable, as well.

The magic comes in having your vision realized by another's hand. It's important--I would say crucial--to work at becoming a team, rather than specialists in a creative assembly line. This can take as much effort as the writing itself, but the results often exceed your highest expectations.



Walter

[ghost-x]

Thanks for posting this Kimo. I think a lot of writers starting out trying to write comics have a big problem with this (myself included). Sometimes it is hard to strike a balance between what works and what it is you want to work. I think one of the most important skills a writer in any medium can ever have is to be able to communicate his/her ideas distinctly and adaptively.

It helps a lot to know your artist ahead of time—not necessarily know them in person, but know their work. Know or have an idea of what it is that they can and cannot do – what they like to do, and if possible – how the like to do it.

I think that one of most appealing things to working in comics is the aspect of collaboration. It’s just basically you and your artist working jointly to create something special – something that only the two of you could have made. No one script will turn out the same when done with a different creative pair. Each panel – every page is a monument to the idiosyncratic tendencies of both artist and writer.

When you gel creatively with an artist it’s an amazing thing – pages start to flow better – things start moving faster. You just cannot discount the worth of it.


Anyway, that’s enough from me I guess.


Thanks for posting,

--Marc

[Converter]

Good find. I see what he is talking about when he says if you can write to the pencillers good traits. That's something I think most writers should know to help them with there story if it's not being portrayed the way you want it to be. Where ever the writer posted/said this thank you.

[Wise_Omni]

I lot of folks try and write beyond their own means..which is basicly saying they try not to limit themselves and then run off and write something that they have no reference too..and dont bother to research ..and some folks are good at covering it up, but its the tiny details that a writer includes in a story that makes one realize he/she knows their subject matter and relays that to the artist...thus its all about the tiny details between myself and the artist and the reader that makes the overall conversation flow on the pages!

[Lovecraft13]

I'm surprised this thread didn't blow up with responses.

I'm currently working with a professional artist on a Houdini project for Digitial Webbing Presents, and the experience has taught me a lot about writing for an artist. However, if I knew this artist was going to be on the team from the start... I would have catered specifically to his strengths. But that wasn't the case. Instead, him and I have been building this world from the ground up as we go. It's neat to watch this organic script evolve into something along the lines of a Moulin Rouge-esque celebration. It started off way out in left field, but now it's coming in for a home run.

[FIG]

I may be a bit late for this thread but reading that really helped me think about something I've never thought about when drawing sequentials. Thanks kimo.

[Steve Lieber]

Originally posted by Lovecraft13
I'm surprised this thread didn't blow up with responses.

No surprise to me. I've been killing threads for almost a decade.

Glad to see my thoughts on this matter have been of some use. It's kind of a shame that such things even have to be said. If the biz was set up decently, genuine collaboration would be standard operating procedure instead of the rarity it is now, and writers would always know who'd be illustrating their scripts.

SL
http://www.stevelieber.com

[Vendetta]

HA!

In the writer's forum, no thread is dead... just sort of lying there, bleeding.

[themadcreator]

after reading the main post and thinking about it, i realized that this concept of writing to improve an artists strengths can work in reverse.

how?

an artist could draw to a writer's strength (or make a writer's work better through his art).

think about it?

jim lee and chris clearmount,
they turned out some good stuff back in the day.

mar silvestri and clearmount also. but after that, clearmount's comic work hasn't seemed to have had the same umph it once had.

look at scott lobdel and travis charist... wow! those wildcat's books were great! but if you asked me to put 2 and 2 together in that storyline, i'd have to tell you i'd be at a loss for words.

funny how it all works...

[Dredweezul]

Learning to communicate with your artist(s), is as important as finding the right artist for the project. IMHO.;)

[Lee Man]

Its unfortunate, but I've yet to know who the artist will be at the time of writing a script - but I do encourage collaboration. When an artist commits to one of my scripts I like to have a conversation where I tell them 'have fun with it! You're the artist, so if you can see a better way to tell the story, experiment!'

Naturally, we'll always talk about the changes and whether or not it effects the story. If the artist wants to change an angle, or condense the action from 3 panels to 2 panels - I have no problem with that! But the more involved an artist gets with the creation of a project, the more excited I am! If there is no collaboration - that saps away half the fun for me.

[mcmalbrough]

Great post.

As an illustrator, i like to pop over and see what you writer's are talking about....

(i somehow missed this thread before...)

Anyway, i thought i'd give my 2 cents.

Another important circumstance where writing for artists is helpful, is when you are trying to put together some sample pages to show to editors, and you need an artist.

As you probably know, Cons are great palces to meet and team up with artists who are also climbing the proffessional ladder.

I have been approached by a lot of writers who want to team up with a penciler to work on a project and fly it by the big boys in hopes of publishing..... in a sense they pitch their scripts to artists. They try to make it sound as exciting as possible so that artist dude will make working on these pages a priority. (the writer usually can't pay.)

Some writers pitch to artists by name dropping, which is great, but i think that tailoring your work to an artists strengths is a great "strategy". Check out an artist's work, and if you like it, strike up a conversation with him or her, and take an interst in what they are doing. find out what they want and like to draw, and if you have something that fits, cool, if not, make it up.

It's alot better than shoving a script into an artist's face. Most of the time they get used as scrap paper for his or her Epson Stylus Photo 1280 printer.

Collaboration gets artists excited, they fell like less of a tool, especially if a writer is open to letting an artist help sequence a fight scene.

M

I don't know if any of that made sense. Maybe it was helpful...sheesh.

[Vendetta]

I know what you mean about the artist and the fight scenes.

Personally, I love to turn the basic fights over to them and let them just work their magic. I'll give them the relevant and important things that NEED to be in the fight... usually, the way it starts and the way it ends, but most everything else, I just want to see what they can do :D

[shipp]

Personally, in my short time of writing scripts, I've come to expect that my script is going to be a little tweeked. It's the artist's job and love of that job, to bring about their own way of laying something out. As I can appreciate Alan Moore's encyclopedia format for a script, I can't see how tieing an artist down like that is in their best interest. I want to make the creative process fun for both of us. It makes it easier to bond with the artist and makes it more likely that they'll want to work with you again.

[Runemaster]

Very insightful.

I've also noticed that some artists like things spelled out to the most minute detail and others prefer the writer to leave them as much latitude as possible.

[Vendetta]

that is very true. It's best when the writer has a relationship with the artist so the writer can taylor the script to the writer... then you have a happy artist doing a better job on your script.

[Steve Lieber]

As weird as it seems, I still get email from people who read this thread looking for further thoughts about the stuff quoted in the first post.

Though it's horribly self-serving of me to mention it here, I've got a book out now that's full of such advice and observations:
http://www.unrewarding.com/steve/images/cigsm.jpg

If you want to flip through it, there'll be copies at my table in San Diego. I'll be in Artists Alley: EE03 or thereabouts, with the rest of the guys from Mercury Studios.

Best,
SL
http://www.stevelieber.com

[Lee Man]

Steve!

I missed you at SDCC, but I'm not that suprised. It was a monster of a Con - absolutely gigantic. I spent most of my time in artist's alley at my table and didn't get out as much as I would have liked.

I'm a writer, and a couple of friends in my 'circle' had noticed this strange book coming out called 'Creating a Graphic Novel'. I hadn't actually noticed it was your name on the cover but was intending to pick it up anyway.

I just missed my chance to have it signed. ;)

Congratulations on the book - can't wait to read it!

[Hired_Sword]

I'm pretty new at writing for comics (or rather, anything that consists mainly of dialogue), but have the definite advantage of knowing my artist, personally, and collaboration is definitely the key to success. (Funny. My father always told me it was organization.)

My first script I gave him was full of things he couldn't draw or was a little hazy on, especially one vague description of a "cool looking space battle" (I tend to leave a lot of the visual details up to him). After a brief meeting, we discussed the problems with said space battle, so I went back to the proverbial drawing board.

The result keeps the spirit of the story, and, in both of our opinions, it improves the scene and the flow of the narrative. It also led to a few new ideas for future projects.

[workhorsecomics]

Organization is a part of it, collaboration/teamwork is another part, creativity and of course money. You need money to make money.;bat;

[Gonzogoose]

Organization is a part of it, collaboration/teamwork is another part, creativity and of course money. You need money to make money.;bat;

Ain't that the truth!

Anyway, back on topic, the first post in this thread is very interesting, and sadly something I hadn't thought about before. Thanks Steve, I'll remember this in future scripts.

What is the general consensus on being descriptive in panel descriptions for artists? I tend to be very specific, but I always tell the artist if they think of a better way to do something we can talk. I don't want to quench their artistry, but I also want to keep my vision. A few times they have come back with better ways to do stuff and it's worked out well.

[amadarwin]

What is the general consensus on being descriptive in panel descriptions for artists? I tend to be very specific, but I always tell the artist if they think of a better way to do something we can talk. I don't want to quench their artistry, but I also want to keep my vision. A few times they have come back with better ways to do stuff and it's worked out well.

I don't know what the consensus is, but I try to keep it simple and concise - and I always preach it. Keep the important things in the panel, allowing the artist room for embellishments and be available to the artist for input and flexible for alterations. Communication and collaboration will take any team far.

[Bruce Lee]

Good post, Kimo.

Here's my 2 cents:

While it's important to know your artist's strength's and weaknesses, I don't think an artist's shortcomings should ever keep a writer from writing the story he or she desires. If an artist doesn't draw pretty women for instance, I'd just tell the artist to use "pretty girl" reference. If they say, "...but I can't draw pretty women!", I'd say, "Learn how to quick, because I know some other artists who can draw VERY pretty women!" Heh. Personally, given the choice (and speaking on a professional level here) I would never work with an artist who couldn't draw adequate women, cars, dogs, etc. To do so would only be a hendrance to the project. An artist with huge inadequacies would only be tossing an anchor and chain around the project, and I don't really like seeing a story I've written pulled down to the bottom. lol.

IMHO A comic artist has to learn how to draw just about EVERYTHING well, or at least must make things appear passable. An artist who can't draw everything well has no excuses, because there is always reference to be had that can assist them in their endevours. If they still can't get it together with reference at hand, then they're simply in the wrong business. :rolleyes:

As an a pro artist, I expect the same level of skill and commitment from a writer that I might work with--in terms of visual writing, etc. I expect a writer to know how to stage a story, pick the right shots, etc. If a writer wants to leave the page layout, etc up to me, I'm fine with that, but they should realize that by giving me the reigns, they've given up their voice on such matters.

In what might be considered contrast to what I've written above, I do believe in working WITH an artist or writer on a story in order to make the story the best it can be. As someone who wears the hat of an artist and the hat of a writer, I find myself in a unique position to be able to offer assistance in both categories, and will gladly help out by switching hats whenever necessary. I'm a flexible guy--really, I am--ut I'm also a practical fellow. I try not to fall into any project where everyone isn't pulling their own weight. I'm a slavedriver (ask anyone who's ever done a JAM project with me! lol).

No mercy. No prisoners.;)

Loston
http://www.lostonwallace.com

[Steve Lieber]

Good lord. It's still going.

Re: Loston's comment:

Well, yeah, ideally, an artist should be good at everything, but to paraphrase Rumsfeld, you go to war with the artist you have, and most artists have strengths and weaknesses. Steve Ditko couldn't draw a pretty woman to save his life, but most writers would happily lose the cheesecake for a creation like Spiderman or the Question. Alex Toth, by his own admission, couldn't do horses and would twist his compositions in all sorts of odd directions to avoid putting them on camera. Jack Kirby was brilliant at many things but he wasn't terribly dilligent about keeping light sources consistent. There was a monster story he drew that turns on aliens who don't cast shadows, but most of the time none of the characters were casting a shadow, so the story doesn't play fair with the reader.

I'd think of these sorts of stumbling blocks as being like those a screenwriter faces, with the limitations of an artist being a hurdle like an inadequate sfx budget- something that a sharp writer will try to work around.

[Brian Germain]

You know Jim Lee is one of my favorite artist's but at the time it just looked to me like he was picking up where Art Adams left off when it came to the X-Men. Which this was not only genius it also worked out great for jim developing his sharp style i think. I just think that Art Adams is one of the greatest X artists out there and doesn't seem to get as much credit as he deserves. In fact were i Todd I would have tried to nab him up when creating Image...

Just one guys opinion however off base it may be.


after reading the main post and thinking about it, i realized that this concept of writing to improve an artists strengths can work in reverse.

how?

an artist could draw to a writer's strength (or make a writer's work better through his art).

think about it?

jim lee and chris clearmount,
they turned out some good stuff back in the day.

mar silvestri and clearmount also. but after that, clearmount's comic work hasn't seemed to have had the same umph it once had.

look at scott lobdel and travis charist... wow! those wildcat's books were great! but if you asked me to put 2 and 2 together in that storyline, i'd have to tell you i'd be at a loss for words.

funny how it all works...

[Bruce Lee]

Good lord. It's still going.

Re: Loston's comment:

Well, yeah, ideally, an artist should be good at everything, but to paraphrase Rumsfeld, you go to war with the artist you have, and most artists have strengths and weaknesses. Steve Ditko couldn't draw a pretty woman to save his life, but most writers would happily lose the cheesecake for a creation like Spiderman or the Question. Alex Toth, by his own admission, couldn't do horses and would twist his compositions in all sorts of odd directions to avoid putting them on camera. Jack Kirby was brilliant at many things but he wasn't terribly dilligent about keeping light sources consistent. There was a monster story he drew that turns on aliens who don't cast shadows, but most of the time none of the characters were casting a shadow, so the story doesn't play fair with the reader.

I'd think of these sorts of stumbling blocks as being like those a screenwriter faces, with the limitations of an artist being a hurdle like an inadequate sfx budget- something that a sharp writer will try to work around.


Every artist has weaknesses for sure, but an artist who has too many weaknesses is probably not a person I'd care much to work with. With guys like Kirby, Toth and Ditko, it's a bit of a no brainer though-- their artistic strengths far outweigh(ed) their artistic hindrances, so a writer not wishing to work with the likes of artists of that caliber would be foolish, IMO. What the bring to sequential art outshines their inabilities. In the old days, one might say, "that's what inkers are for", in regards elevating a penciller's drawing, but that probably doesn't apply in today's industry, because many modern inkers only follow what the penciller puts down, period. The business has changed a lot in the last decade and a half.

Loston

[TheFightingFoetus]

I agree with the main point of this thread. It's not that I don't agree with Loston, but there's no way of avoiding the fact that *all* artists have weaknesses, and that a writer should work away from them. Barring the artist wanting to be challenged or something, of course.

[penciljack]

I think it's a given that an artist that has "too many" weaknesses is a detriment, but I don't think that's the point of the thread.

Everybody's got their own kryptonite, and in a true collaboration (even writers), it behooves the writer to be aware of his artist's strengths and weaknesses.

[Bruce Lee]

I think it's a given that an artist that has "too many" weaknesses is a detriment, but I don't think that's the point of the thread.

Everybody's got their own kryptonite, and in a true collaboration (even writers), it behooves the writer to be aware of his artist's strengths and weaknesses.

I absolutely agree with Steve's points. The point I'm making is that while I do agree that one should tailor scripts to an artist's strengths if possible, I believe that making comics is a marriage between the writer and artist, and it's necessary for both parties to live up to their part of the marriage. Should a writer compromise a good story idea just because an artist isn't good at drawing cars, etc? I know that's not what Steve's suggesting, but I figured something about that should be mentioned.

A good comic marriage to me is about two people working in harmony with one another. I'm not suggesting anything differently here. This partnership should be about working together and playing to strengths always.

[penciljack]

Edited to reword what I meant, because I'm afraid my original message sounded too antagonistic -

Sorry, Loston, but it sort of reads as if you're trying to disagree while totally agreeing at the same time. Maybe it's just me, I have lost a lot of sleep lately. I think we agree on the key points, for the most part.

But nobody's saying a writer should just take all the cars out of a script because the artist isn't that good at cars or anything like that. We're all on board with the notion that an artist ought to strive to be able to draw everything convincingly, and all, but the reality is everybody has weaknesses.

In any partnership, to achieve any sort of harmony both parties have to be aware of the others' strengths and weaknesses. In the opposite extreme, I doubt any partnership would last if one party only played to the other party's weaknesses, etc.

[Bruce Lee]

Edited to reword what I meant, because I'm afraid my original message sounded too antagonistic -

Sorry, Loston, but it sort of reads as if you're trying to disagree while totally agreeing at the same time. Maybe it's just me, I have lost a lot of sleep lately. I think we agree on the key points, for the most part.

We do agree on the key points, but I don't see this quite so black and white/wrong way and right way, maybe. You might have been confused because I agree and disagree to some extent. I just think one has to be cautious about compromising a good script simply to avoid an artist's weaknesses, which is the danger lurking on the other side of the fence here. There's no reason why a writer should have to fall into the trap of catering to the artist just to cover for an artist's lack of ability. Play to an artist's strengths-sure-but there's no reason (IMO) that an artist's weaknesses should ever hold a good story back.

"Gee--George can't draw zombies, so I guess that horror story I wanted to do is out of the question-- unless I rewrite the script so that it's rabbid squirrels attacking, since George is good at drawing animals."

My point is that an artist has to live up to their part of the bargain as much as the writer does, and I thought that needed mentioning here too. An artist sometimes has to draw things they're not particularly good at or comfortable with, and needs to rise up to the level of the needs of a script. It's a two way street. It's a marriage. I don't think it's a marriage that's working if both parties aren't meeting half-way. I absolutely think it's very wise to play to an artist's strengths, but a writer shouldn't handicap himself or bow down to the limitations of an artist in the process of making a comic.

Maybe my thoughts here belongs in a thread entitled "DRAWING FOR A WRITER", but I think my thoughts are relevant to what's been said in this thread, even if they do stray in a slightly different direction. In my view, making comics should always be a team effort, and the burden shouldn't fall upon the writer's shoulders alone to make compromises. It's a two way street, and that's worth pointing out.

Steve's advice, I do agree with, but I felt there was more to be said, and I've tried my best to elaborate my opinions towards that end. Writing and penciling for comics requires a little give-and-take on both sides. As a writer, I think it's good to give in sometimes--just not all the time! The artist certainly deserves some maneuvering room, ground floor input, etc, but there's no reason a writer has to concede too much. Like the writer, it's worth pointing out that the penciller should live up to his obligation also. The writer deserves his fair shake in the deal too.

Loston

[jmil]

I've been off and on following this thread for a couple of months now and I just thought i'd throw into the conversation.

Lately, I've been taking stories particularly because they have things in them that I either can't draw very well, or haven't really ever drawn before. The exercise here is that after I'm finished with the assignment, I'll be much better ( or at least more comfortable) with the particular element that was troubling me.

Lets say horses are troubleing me, for example. I read the script, download/find all the reference I can find on horses. Sketch the crap out of them while I'm working out my layouts (or longer if i need to) until I've got a grip on the basics, and then work the character out in my pencilling and inking stages, constantly redrawing if I have to. And then each subsequent time i have to draw horses I get better and better.

I think that's our job as artists to be constantly figuring out how to evolve our methods to tackle each challenge that comes our way.

[penciljack]

I suppose if I was confused, Loston, it was because on the one hand you literally said you fully agree but then on the other hand, you disagree. Does not compute ;)

If we're talking philosophy, then yes I suppose we'd all fully agree that an artist should be able to draw everything under the sun. That's a terrific goal, and I daresay one we'd all strive for.

The reality is, though, that nobody is perfect.

I think were we're running into a roadblock here is in acknowledging weaknesses doesn't mean we're advocating hiding those weaknesses.

Nobody's saying, for example, that a writer ought to cut elements out of his script to hide an artist's deficiencies. I don't know how that extreme got introduced, actually, but it really doesn't seem to be anything Steve's advocating, or anybody else.

Anyway, I think we all understood that Steve wasn't pulling for writers to dumb down their scripts. He can speak for himself, obviously (darnit, Steve, why do you only have three posts here?), but I think he was just talking about a real world situation.

[Justice41]

Los is an question wrapped in an enigma or is that vice versa. I think this book would help artists more than writers. I say let the writers write and have the artist meet or match what was written. I don't think a writer should have to hold the artists hands but if he has issues, he(the artist) should ask for help Writers have a vision too, just not the skill to illustrate it for the most part. It would suck if writers catered to the artists and not to self or the comics audience.
Is that book at Amazon or can we just buy it direct from your site and do you use paypal?

[Bruce Lee]

You know, Terry, I absolutely agree with a LOT of things--for instance: I agree that nuclear power is beneficial to mankind. But you know, that doesn't keep me from being objective or realistic about nuclear power. It's pretty easy to see the horrible danger that nuclear power brings just as easy as it is to see the benefit.

There's two sides to every coin, as I see it, and it's often good to look at the flipside of things. I think it's wise to always look at the big picture as a whole. I do agree with Steve, but I also think there's more things to consider in the big picture, and more to be said, so I said more. There are lots of traps and pitfalls out there that we should all watch out for. It's a good idea to compromise, but it's likewise a bad idea to offer too much concession, I think. The hat trick is figuring out the boundaries of such matters.

Sorry if I confused you guys along the way. I'm not getting much sleep either these days.

Loston

[penciljack]

My apologies, Loston. I thought I was being both objective and realistic. I can see you've got that covered for us, though.

[Brian Germain]

Well God only knows what happened to the other post I wrote... but it was very lengthy and perhaps it got editied out or something happened upon posting it... at any rate i was just trying to say that communication between artist and writer is one of the most important things... of course since I posted that post, someone else has basically said the same thing at least once LOL

Anyway so yeah.... there... umm communication :D


-Brian

[Bruce Lee]

My apologies, Loston. I thought I was being both objective and realistic. I can see you've got that covered for us, though.

I never said you or anyone else was NOT being objective or realistic--only that I was trying to be with my own particular comments. I was speaking for myself only. If it seemed like I was implying otherwise, again, I apologize. Your last comment seemed unnecessarily laced with venom, Terry. We're basically agreeing here, but the more I read your replies, the more hostile they seem. Am I misinterpretting them? :confused: I think there's been a lot of miscommunication here between us. Much of it is undoubtfully my fault, but I think we're both guilty, eh?

Loston

[penciljack]

Venom? No. More like profound frustration.

[Bruce Lee]

Venom? No. More like profound frustration.

I can understand that. A lot of time wasted on this thread by both of us, I think. It was never my intention for this to go on and on, I assure you.

Loston

[workhorsecomics]

It is my experience that when a topic is popular, you can ride it out, the preferred, or put an end to. My recommendation, just enjoy the respondse.

[Bruce Lee]

It is my experience that when a topic is popular, you can ride it out, the preferred, or put an end to. My recommendation, just enjoy the respondse.

That's good advice. I'm just sorry that I've added to PJ's headaches. He has enough of them to deal with on PJ without me adding to his stress. That wasn't my goal here, but I do think it's a good topic and is open for discussion. I'm just all out of thoughts about the subject.

Loston

[Justice41]

Well the two of you just demonstrated why it's important for a writer to be veddy clear about what he wants in the books he's writing for or the audience who'll be reading his/her novels.

[workhorsecomics]

Yeah, too many writer depend upon the artist to visualize the story. I, as a writer, try to think in terms of scripting a movie. However, when the writer is the artist, then he needs to depend on some one for feedback.

[Brian Germain]

I didn't get that from that post bruce... it just seemed like he read your last post and seen now that you weren't trying to be a jerk and responded to it. could be that he was venting but it does kinda sound to me like you have a minor issue with yourself though not penciljack. but I have been wrong before... anyway my point to this post was that it didn't seem overtly hatefult to me when i read it... actually if anything I think his previous post was more "venom laced" than this last one.

but after being engaged for five years... I have no opinion.

-Brian


I never said you or anyone else was NOT being objective or realistic--only that I was trying to be with my own particular comments. I was speaking for myself only. If it seemed like I was implying otherwise, again, I apologize. Your last comment seemed unnecessarily laced with venom, Terry. We're basically agreeing here, but the more I read your replies, the more hostile they seem. Am I misinterpretting them? :confused: I think there's been a lot of miscommunication here between us. Much of it is undoubtfully my fault, but I think we're both guilty, eh?

Loston

[Ugga Bugga]

but after being engaged for five years... I have no opinion.

-Brian

If you've been engaged for five years, and are not yet married, it would seem that you have a very strong opinion;)

[Bruce Lee]

Well, we can all conclude one thing: Steve Lieber's a damn good storyteller! :)

Loston

[Brian Germain]

If you've been engaged for five years, and are not yet married, it would seem that you have a very strong opinion;)


Yeah actually I did because I am not engaged now but I was for five years... actually I think 5 years is a pretty short time to be engaged considering you can be with someone your whole life and not completely know them... after all you don't even usually have you car paid off before five years if you buy it new ... and you woulddn't want to buy a car without a test drive would you? LOL


j/k I know I'm an ass sorry ... lol


-Brian

[ScottWegener]

Just a great little bit of advice!

I'm sure it can be very difficult to give up some control of a project to the artists after birthing it, but if your partnership is genuine I think that the end result will be a mix of both the writter's and the artist's vision.

I know on one or two projects I ahve done art for I have developed a certain sense of ownership, and in one case actual legal ownership.

The only idea I might add, or perhaps throw out there for discussion is be careful what you are asking your artist to do. I have seen some scripts where in a single panel the writer is asking for certain camera shots or character actions that can't be done. They can be done in multiple panels, but this often dictates a rewrite.

Along similar lines on pages with a lot of action I have found it good to keep the number of panels to a minimum. I remember one page in particular that was 9 or ten panels, all packed with action and movement. On the page though it looked horrible because I could not do justice to the scene.

[xadrian]

Cheese and Rice! I believe this is the oldest thread on the board. It predates the TOS.

[ScottWegener]

LOL, I just know as a frustrated artists who has seen some horrible scripts this thread almost made me cry with joy when I read it.

[gynocrat]

It took me years to find the artist I write for. And yes, even though I still sell scripts that are 'assigned' artists, I still do my best work with the artist I've been working with since 2003.

[ScottWegener]

It took me years to find the artist I write for. And yes, even though I still sell scripts that are 'assigned' artists, I still do my best work with the artist I've been working with since 2003.

I suppose artists have the same problem in reverse. Have you had to work with artists who just "don't get it" no matter how many ways you rewrite "it"?

[gynocrat]

Artists, and editors. >_<; It took me quite a awhile to find someone who was able to illustrate my work without me having to literally walk them through it. We've been making comics together for 3 years now, and it's to the point where when I write I see her style of art in my mind. If that makes sense...

One thing I did find curious--and it disturbed me somewhat- was the notion that as a writer, frame planner, and letterer, the finished product I make with my partner Caroline isn't considered 'mine' as well. I posted a page here to show 'script to page' and was told I couldn't post them because I was considered a 'surrogate'. I suppose that's like saying once you write it and it's given to the artist to pencil and ink than it's no longer yours.

[ScottWegener]

No, what you say makes perfect sense. My writter told me recently that he now sees the characters in his head looking the way I draw them.

As for "ownership"; that is a funny thing. Right now its the writter who is most often associated with a book. The artist much less so. Of course, that is probably because the majority of people working right now are banging out very similar stuff -I always think of it as generic superhero art. You really can't tell one guy from the next.

But I can see how some folks might get a hair across the neather regions about a writter posting finished pages. I guess its a little odd.

In my head I tend to think of individual pages and panels being mine, and the overall story being the writer's. I realize thats sort of stupid, but it just how my brain breaks it down.

[gynocrat]

Well that isn't stupid, and I guess I never asked Caroline how she looked at it. I've noted when people asked us questions we both tend to say 'ours' and I feel the need to point out the art is hers. Perhaps it's more of an issue in manga rather than comics.:confused:

[Inkthinker]

Hahaaa... this thread is so old it deserves a pension. :D

As an artist, the thing that frustrates me most is when writers don't properly stage their scenes... describing actions that can't feasibly take place as written, or moving elements around without making notice of the same.

It's very, VERY helpful, if the writer has a visual concept planted firmly in mind (layout, staging, whatever) to throw down a thumbnail or rough doodle... it doesn't matter if it's stick figures in a box, the artist ought to be able to interpret something from it that they might not see in just the prose.

[ScottWegener]

Yeah, totally, Inkthinker. I think that as writers get more experienced you don't have as much trouble with this though.

My theory is that when I writer conceptualizes a sequence of events they do so in moving pictures -like they are watching a movie in their head. But a bit of time writing for comic books and they start to think more in terms of storyboards, focusing on the pivitol actions that sum up the energy and movement of the action.

[gynocrat]

And that's where that stupid storyboarding class they make you sit through in film school really helps! ^_^;. I hated that class with a passion because I couldn't draw! Of course I never made a movie, but I write comics with real cool thumbnail layouts. Yeha!

Seriously though, I tend to use script with thumbs as a loose guide only and don't care too much when the Caroline veers from it and pencils out the scene where so plays out smoother on the page. Given her education with framing pages, she knows more about the balance of it than I would.

Hell is when artists illustrate something opposite of what's written so much so my dialogue has to be re-written to accomodate their illustrations. I had a few artists like this before Caroline, it was unnerving.

[Brian Germain]

after reading the main post and thinking about it, i realized that this concept of writing to improve an artists strengths can work in reverse.

how?

an artist could draw to a writer's strength (or make a writer's work better through his art).

think about it?

jim lee and chris clearmount,
they turned out some good stuff back in the day.

mar silvestri and clearmount also. but after that, clearmount's comic work hasn't seemed to have had the same umph it once had.

look at scott lobdel and travis charist... wow! those wildcat's books were great! but if you asked me to put 2 and 2 together in that storyline, i'd have to tell you i'd be at a loss for words.

funny how it all works...


I know this is an old thread but I just wanted to add something. I have noted that alot of writers have said "hey we'll let the artist figure out how to draw that one aftewr all he's the artist!" but when writing you have to consider that some things aren't going to be as viable in black and white and even if they are oin color some things could very difficult for an artist to figure out how to draw. If I can come up with a good example I'll post it here.

[Deth]

one other thing. I hate it when writers write a page with 9 panels, tons of dialogue, and wanna add 101 things in each panel and then expect an artist to figure out a way to draw it. Gotta think about the artist man. It aint a novel you gotta think about space needed and all that.

[Garf]

Kinda like when you get some writers who go crazy on dialogue during fight scenes.
The ballooons end up covering some good work at some point, unless you write in the margin or space out the panels, which never looks good. (Obviously writing in the margins is out of the question)
I find that a good writer knows how to pace narration with action, and put dialogue in its' proper place without taking from the artwork.

But yes, there are some writers out there who expect that the pencillers or the colourists can come up with groundbreaking new ways to create four-dimensional space with the confines of an 8 panel page.
They need to at least be shown storyboards, so they can understand what some of the limitations are.

[Brian Germain]

exactly... I think nat gertler and steve leiber say it pretty welll in the " creating a graphic novel for dummies" book when they say stick to around 6 panels per page at the most. I am paraphrasing of course but I think there is a place for nine panel pages but use them rarely. If in fact you feel the need to a a nine panel page have a desired reason and effect that will be the outcome.

when you use more panels iut actually slows down the action which can be good and when you use less panels it speeds up the action so when you are writing for an artist at least know those two things.

-Brian

[Brian Germain]

Hey I know it's been forever but I thought of an example... actually I had forgotten about this thread but I think that a good example would be I want you to draw a dark elf with black skin wearing a black outfit in an extremelt dark room, in black and white that might be very difficult or it might just come up as white lines on a black background. Very often as a writer and an artist i get the luxury of thinking to myself how would I go about drawing this panel whiule I am writing it. well not all writers can draw it but they can imagine what they would want it to look like and try to convey it that way as simply as poosibly but yet in detail.



exactly... I think nat gertler and steve leiber say it pretty welll in the " creating a graphic novel for dummies" book when they say stick to around 6 panels per page at the most. I am paraphrasing of course but I think there is a place for nine panel pages but use them rarely. If in fact you feel the need to a a nine panel page have a desired reason and effect that will be the outcome.

when you use more panels iut actually slows down the action which can be good and when you use less panels it speeds up the action so when you are writing for an artist at least know those two things.

-Brian

[slash]

I've been reading full scripts of published comicbooks recently, and with the exception of Frank millers ASBAR script, everyone of them overwrote the action per panel. Imo. Now who am I to criticize the most popular writers in comics, so take this as my opinion.

I think the way Frank miller arranges his description must be a dream to work with.

Neil Gaimans script in the back of the 1602 collection didn't exactly flow visually. he was very specific with what he wanted, but as you can see looking at Andys choices, it was impoosible for him to include alot of the information visually Neil wrote.

John Romita Jr said of working on Millars scripts for Wolverine that it was the first time in his career he couldn't draw more than 2 books a month. I'm not saying everyone should be able to work as fast as John, But i don't think it's a good quality to have in your scripts to slow an artist down from his regular speed.


If I were writing for an artist, I'd adopt Franks method of clarity. I'm sure he's just as wordy in early drafts of his plot as anyone else, but his final script for the artist, is really written for the artist.

[grandson]

hello,
It helps a lot to know your artist ahead of time—not necessarily know them in person, but know their work. Know or have an idea of what it is that they can and cannot do – what they like to do, and if possible – how the like to do it.
I think that one of most appealing things to working in comics is the aspect of collaboration. It’s just basically you and your artist working jointly to create something special – something that only the two of you could have made. No one script will turn out the same when done with a different creative pair. Each panel – every page is a monument to the idiosyncratic tendencies of both artist and writer.
When you gel creatively with an artist it’s an amazing thing – pages start to flow better – things start moving faster. You just cannot discount the worth of it.

thanks !!

[ajunwun]

Thanks for posting this.

[Lonrott]

Not to be a stink on this excellent thread, but a 6 panel per page really makes no sense (if it is a general rule). It should really depend on the rhythm of the story. I have seen excellent 8-9 panel pages that were done well and 8-9 panel pages that look cluttered. What every writer should try to do is draw thumbnails or layout a page with simple scribbles. If the layout works already, it can always be improved. And to stick up for writers, it is not always the writer's fault. Some artists are lazy or sometimes they just can't draw backgrounds. I have seen so many amateur comics where the background is a yellow or pink blur or some photo shop effect. I feel cheated as reader. I am not blaming artists (you can't have a comic without an artist), but I am saying that it is not all on the writer.

[Steve Lieber]

Is it wrong to reply to a message just so I can have a thread that lasted for a entire decade? If it is, I don't want to be right.

Anyhow, responding to what Lonrott wrote above, I agree, though in my capacity as a "commercial" comics artist, drawing comics for ad agencies and other clients who aren't experienced with the medium, I often find myself advising commercial clients to limit the number of panels per page to five or six. I've drawn much, much denser pages than that, but it takes a lot of cramming and cropping and tetris-type effort to make it readable and appealing, and that's without the need to communicate to a non comics-savvy audience.

[amadarwin]

Is it wrong to reply to a message just so I can have a thread that lasted for a entire decade? If it is, I don't want to be right.

I see no harm in it. In fact, I think it's long overdue to be added to our new-ish Tips and Tech 2.0 (http://www.penciljack.com/forum/showthread.php?111293-Tips-and-Techniques-2.0) section, where it will be forever immortalized.