who's the best... NOT!!

[SHAMWOW!]

Which of these guys are the best at what they do?

[fatmancomics]

I know it's hip to diss john byrne lately but, really, he shouldn't be on this list.

[Huerta]

I picked Byrne. His art is still in stuck in the 80's.

[dfbovey]

I wonder why Byrne is still working, because he seems to hate the state of the industry and is a very bitter old man. When you're that jaded, why continue?

I voted for Pat Lee though, because he sucks and is a shady character. Not sure why people still hire him.

Although a case could also be made for Land. But that's more of a why the hell do people buy his work kind of thing.

Liefeld... hate his art. But he has a love and enthusiasm for comics. And he has alot of fans.

Turner... eh. There are worse artists working in the industry.

[fatmancomics]

hmm...Liefield, Lee (Jim), McFarlane and Larsen haven't changed their style since the 90s.

[Dri]

I know it's been discussed to death but Land is one of those people who will always get illustrating jobs because it seems generally accepted in the industry if you can copy people's style of artwork. I'd imagine it would be the same to appropriate artworks too. If he meets the client's expectation and they want it he gets paid. Sad, but it seems to be true and accepted.

[Mr.Hades]

hmm...Liefield, Lee (Jim), McFarlane and Larsen haven't changed their style since the 90s.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it... Well that really only relates to Jim Lee in my opinon.

[SINCE SLICE BREAD]

What I'm wondering is whether there are people who would line up to actually get their autographs still. John Byrne excluded, I can still see him getting autographs.

[Popninja]

I wonder why Byrne is still working, because he seems to hate the state of the industry and is a very bitter old man. When you're that jaded, why continue?

I can't speak for the man, but I totally agree with him when it comes to the state of the industry. Bottom line, though, he clearly loves the characters, and I don't hate him for that.

However, Byrne SHOULD NOT be on this list. Whatever you want to say about his "attitude", when it comes to the creation of comics and his talent, the man is a professional 100% and should not be lumped in with any of the other guys on this list.

Byrne blows away everybody on this list. "Stuck in the 80s?" You mean stuck in a time when books came out of time and the focus was on the characters and not the creators? I'll take the 80s over now any day.

[fatmancomics]

I can't speak for the man, but I totally agree with him when it comes to the state of the industry. Bottom line, though, he clearly loves the characters, and I don't hate him for that.

However, Byrne SHOULD NOT be on this list. Whatever you want to say about his "attitude", when it comes to the creation of comics and his talent, the man is a professional 100% and should not be lumped in with any of the other guys on this list.

Byrne blows away everybody on this list. "Stuck in the 80s?" You mean stuck in a time when books came out of time and the focus was on the characters and not the creators? I'll take the 80s over now any day.

Amen. tencharacters

[SHAMWOW!]

What I'm wondering is whether there are people who would line up to actually get their autographs still. John Byrne excluded, I can still see him getting autographs.

should'nt it be more like what convention would want them to guest in?

[dfbovey]

hmm...Liefield, Lee (Jim), McFarlane and Larsen haven't changed their style since the 90s.

Don't really like Liefeld or McFarlane... but why should an artist change their style? Style is what distinquishes one artist from another, no matter what the genre. It's not something that needs to change. It's almost like asking someone to change who they are.

[dfbovey]

I can't speak for the man, but I totally agree with him when it comes to the state of the industry. Bottom line, though, he clearly loves the characters, and I don't hate him for that.

Yeah, I can understand why he might feel a certain way. But whenever I see someone as jaded as he is, it surprises me that he continues on. My comment wasn't to the effect that I don't think he has what it takes... but more I'm surprised he keeps going given how jaded he is.

[Popninja]

Currently, it doesn't appear Byrne is working on anything for DC, and he says Marvel no longer exists. All he posts on his site are commissions that he does for random folks. It's sad, considering the impact he had on me when I was coming up. It sucks that his views, which he unfortunately freely shares with everyone, make it so people dog him out so much. The guy is a wealth of knowledge when it comes to comics and storytelling, and no matter what anyone here says, he is extremely talented. It really pisses me off when people that don't have a clue lump John Byrne in with someone like Greg Land as someone who you wonder why they still are working. Land straight up traces everything he does. Byrne has worked in the business for well over 30 years and has contributed greatly to everything that we read in Marvel and DC today. It just irks me.

[dfbovey]

I agree with you. He shouldn't be lumped into this thread given the nature of it.

[SHAMWOW!]

based on the "If you could permanently ban one person from comics, who would it be" he was seriously considered.
and if he really doesn't deserve to be there than all you would have is aztek voting for him.

[dfbovey]

based on the "If you could permanently ban one person from comics, who would it be" he was seriously considered.
and if he really doesn't deserve to be there than all you would have is aztek voting for him.

With all due respect to Aztek, he's obviously in the minority in this case.

[Huerta]

I would have voted for all of them except Turner. So I just picked the crazy guy.

[Singles]

Being a crappy artist is one thing, but being a theiving scumbag is another. I don't know what's worse, the fact that Pat Lee has ripped off so many artists and made money off of it, or that people in this industry still want to give him work.

[Popninja]

based on the "If you could permanently ban one person from comics, who would it be" he was seriously considered.

On what grounds, though? His views on Steve Irwin? Or his thinking on Christopher Reeve being a "hero?" Or the fact that he is one of the most prolific artists in the business?

If it weren't for LITG and a few other witch-hunting forums, no one would even care about what John Byrne posts on his forum. But people are so focused on the negative, that they look past the rich history that Byrne has brought to comics. Apparently his viewpoints on various subjects completely negates his contributions to comics.

If no one ever read anything John Byrne wrote on his forum, would he still suck? Or would he still be one of the most influential creators in comics history?

[Juan2.0]

...the man is a professional 100% and should not be lumped in with any of the other guys on this list. You do know that Turner has NEVER missed a deadline since he started working professionally...EXCEPT for when he had to undergo the surgery and the chemotherapy to take care of the cancer. Ever since he started his stuff was always on time. But you already knew that, so... ;)

[Manji]

Being a crappy artist is one thing, but being a theiving scumbag is another. I don't know what's worse, the fact that Pat Lee has ripped off so many artists and made money off of it, or that people in this industry still want to give him work.

Amen that is why Pat Lee gets my vote (as if it matters) and Greg Land gets a write in vote.

[Huerta]

You do know that Turner has NEVER missed a deadline since he started working professionally...EXCEPT for when he had to undergo the surgery and the chemotherapy to take care of the cancer. Ever since he started his stuff was always on time. But you already knew that, so... ;)

Thats's why I excluded Turner. I dont like how he draws but he's always on time and doesnt have any other negatives against him.

[Juan2.0]

Thats's why I excluded Turner. I dont like how he draws but he's always on time and doesnt have any other negatives against him.w0rd... ;)

[fatmancomics]

Don't really like Liefeld or McFarlane... but why should an artist change their style? Style is what distinquishes one artist from another, no matter what the genre. It's not something that needs to change. It's almost like asking someone to change who they are.

That was the point that I was making in response to the assinine "I picked Byrne. His art is still in stuck in the 80's" comment.

[Huerta]

That was the point that I was making in response to the assinine "I picked Byrne. His art is still in stuck in the 80's" comment.

Yup. And he can keep drawing like that because he's only limiting himself.

[Huerta]

hmm...Liefield, Lee (Jim), McFarlane and Larsen haven't changed their style since the 90s.


Lee, IMO, has gotten worse.

McFarlane is a business man not an artist.

Larsen has turned into a Hybrid of Kirby and himself.

Liefeld is on the list and should stop drawing.

[Physicdesigns]

Lee has fallen from his peak, but hes still better than 80% of the artists out there.

Liefield peaked like 2 years into the game and fell off. His mind is stuck in the extreme 90s era, he makes the same corny charachter designs and concepts that suck.

Pat lee, i really know nothing about other than the hatred you guys have, his art was hot sometimes, if it was his art that is.


Mcfarlane is the self admited super magician who fooled the world into thinking he was great with illusion tactics, takes some skill to do, but it worked. he isnt drawing anymore so whys he on the list?

Turner i dont love his style, hes an ok artists, he has a lot of skills that are on the bottom end of what professional is. However theres a bunch of artists in the game with similar skill, he just gets more recognition for it.

Byrne has fallen off, hes not as good as he used to be. ID say though that if you take his work from his peak throw it to a modern inker and colorist, hed be competing with anyone else out there for a top spot. But his work now, lacks what he used to have. Even still he is better than like 65% of people drawing anyhow so yeah

[Mr.Hades]

Pat lee, i really know nothing about other than the hatred you guys have, his art was hot sometimes, if it was his art that is.

The 'hate' comes from acts like this:
http://www.comicbookresources.com/columns/index.cgi?column=litg&article=2581

[Huerta]

Pat lee, i really know nothing about other than the hatred you guys have, his art was hot sometimes, if it was his art that is.

He's kind of like the Suge Knight of comics but without the killing and gangs.

[amadarwin]

Which of these guys are the best at what they do?
I'm not sure I understand...

are you asking if Pat Lee is a better scam artist than Greg Land is a tracer?

Or if Michael Turner is a better torso elongator than John Byrne is as a curmudgeon?

[Phatman]

Byrne:Yeah, his style could use an update and he is a really cranky dude. However, he can still tell a story clearly, hit a deadline and sell books. I don't see any reason to ban him for his internet bullshit.

Liefeld:Can't hit a schedule, but still sells books and doesn't seem to be a dick to work with. His past swiping sins aside, I can't see ever banning Rob just for the internet fodder alone.

Turner:I don't care for his work, but he sells, hits a schedule, and seems like a decent guy. Keep him.

Pat Lee:Seems like a major league tool and a prick for not crediting his "help". A piece of crap that deserves flushing, but not the worst guy in the poll.

Greg Land:Ahh, where to start. Not only does this guy trace photographs, he traces the work of other comic artists. To me, he is the lowest piece of shit in the business and has no artistic integrity to speak of. Not only should he be banned, every clueless fanboy who says it doesn't matter that he traces should be locked out of their LCB.

[SHAMWOW!]

surely a guy with a site like this cant be evil (http://www.angelfire.com/pa/infrarred/)

[Popninja]

Yup. And he can keep drawing like that because he's only limiting himself.

John Byrne is almost 60 years old. If you track his progression from his start in comics to now, you'll see tremendous growth. I find it laughable that you would even say that.

Byrne's got nothing to prove to anyone. He's already done it all.

[Huerta]

His work has gotten worse, IMO.

[F!]

Turner i dont love his style, hes an ok artists, he has a lot of skills that are on the bottom end of what professional is. However theres a bunch of artists in the game with similar skill, he just gets more recognition for it.Turner would be nothing without his colorists.

[CWmax]

John Byrne + 80's X-men = He Rules Forever.

[dfbovey]

Turner would be nothing without his colorists.

Yeah, which is nowhere near as bad as being nothing without having to trace a photo, or nothing without having to pay someone else to draw for you.

Turner's art has it's issues but it's not the worst I've seen.

[Popninja]

His work has gotten worse, IMO.

Then you really don't know a whole lot about art, IMO.

Pick up any issue of Iron Fist or MTU from the '70s and then compare it with any of the work he's done on Blood of the Demon or Doom Patrol just last year and you won't be able to say his work has gotten worse.

[Huerta]

I looked at all that stuff online. And Byrne isnt even close to the definition of art, nor am I or most comic artists. We are tools.

I dont get how some fans make it seem like Byrne was Michelangelo or something. Ridiculous.

[Logan]

I looked at all that stuff online. And Byrne isnt even close to the definition of art, nor am I or most comic artists. We are tools.

I dont get how some fans make it seem like Byrne was Michelangelo or something. Ridiculous.

i don't care for byrne nowadays very much either, but he was a really big influence on me and a lot of the artists i liked when i was younger. i still like some of his stuff, but certainly not all of it. he's no where near eisner or kirby or the other greats in my mind. that said, he definately had a large impact on comics in his heyday.

and pop, isn't it possible to talk about the guy's artistic merit without you slinging insults around all of the time? just because someone doesn't share your view on ONE artist doesn't give you the right to be a dick. ;)

[Popninja]

You don't stay in the comic business for over 30 years and have classic runs on characters from X-Men to Superman if you aren't somehow...um...I guess maybe sorta good.

Here's an example of the progression I was speaking of.

An old Avengers page from way over 25 years ago:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/Popninja/Photos/Avengers165.jpg

vs.

A Blood of the Demon page from maybe two years ago:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/Popninja/Photos/botd10.jpg

That was the only old page I could find off the fly, but it's clear that his newer work is the work of someone who really has a grasp of all things fundamental, from anatomy to perspective. I don't know what the eyes of you young fellas see, but I look at that Demon splash and I see skill that I wish I had.

[Huerta]

i don't care for byrne nowadays very much either, but he was a really big influence on me and a lot of the artists i liked when i was younger. i still like some of his stuff, but certainly not all of it. he's no where near eisner or kirby or the other greats in my mind. that said, he definately had a large impact on comics in his heyday.

and pop, isn't it possible to talk about the guy's artistic merit without you slinging insults around all of the time? just because someone doesn't share your view on ONE artist doesn't give you the right to be a dick. ;)

I can understand that. MAD! got me reading comics but if he still draws the same in 20 years, my respect for him as an artist wont be the same.

[Juan2.0]

I looked at all that stuff online. And Byrne isnt even close to the definition of art, nor am I or most comic artists. We are tools.

I dont get how some fans make it seem like Byrne was Michelangelo or something. Ridiculous.

Everyone has their favorites and no matter what you or I might say, it won't change anything. I'm not a big Byrne fan either...even back in the 80's I never much cared for his stuff...well, except for his She-Hulk issues...those were sweet...but it all boils down to each his own. Pop likes Byrne, that's his choice. I like Turner, Finch, Yu, etc...those are my choices. Thank God we all don't like the same thing...can you imagine how boring life would be then if we were all a bunch of sheep who liked exactly the same things. :D

[Phatman]

An old Avengers page from way over 25 years ago:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/Popninja/Photos/Avengers165.jpg


One comment on Byrne and this page you posted-he did this issue of Avengers, an issue of X-men and an issue of Fantastic Four in the same month. You can say what you want about him as a person, but nobody around today can match that kind of production (not even JR,jr). If nothing else, Byrne is certainly more prolific than any of the other artists mentioned and has created some truly great comics-wake me up when Joe Mad or Mike Turner do a great comic.

[Juan2.0]

p.s. It's threads like this that make me wanna slap people upside the head and say, " Stop being a damn nerd. "

Some of you just take this shit WAY TOO SERIOUSLY.

Now I could see if someone was ripping you a new one about your own artwork...then hell yeah, I'd spit fire back too...but when you guys get to fighting over another artist's art...that's just dumb because it's all about personal opinion and what that person chooses to like.

;)

[Popninja]

I don't care what anyone wants to claim, but if you read and love comics, you basically ARE a nerd.

[Huerta]

Everyone has their favorites and no matter what you or I might say, it won't change anything. I'm not a big Byrne fan either...even back in the 80's I never much cared for his stuff...well, except for his She-Hulk issues...those were sweet...but it all boils down to each his own. Pop likes Byrne, that's his choice. I like Turner, Finch, Yu, etc...those are my choices. Thank God we all don't like the same thing...can you imagine how boring life would be then if we were all a bunch of sheep who liked exactly the same things. :D

Everyone likes good art (La Pieta, Last Supper etc). That doesnt make us sheep and style is a different subject.

[Huerta]

p.s. It's threads like this that make me wanna slap people upside the head and say, " Stop being a damn nerd. "

Some of you just take this shit WAY TOO SERIOUSLY.

Now I could see if someone was ripping you a new one about your own artwork...then hell yeah, I'd spit fire back too...but when you guys get to fighting over another artist's art...that's just dumb because it's all about personal opinion and what that person chooses to like.

;)

Dont ever go to an art school or museum. lol

[Juan2.0]

I don't care what anyone wants to claim, but if you read and love comics, you basically ARE a nerd. Say that to my face and let's see if you walk away with any teef left. ;)

Uncle Juan ain't no nerd...but when I go to WWChicago I sure do get a kick out of some of you. :D

[Logan]

Say that to my face and let's see if you walk away with any teef left. ;)

Uncle Juan ain't no nerd...but when I go to WWChicago I sure do get a kick out of some of you. :D

i hope you're not serious. you're a nerd, and if your last post is indeed serious then you are in need of therapy to get over your severe case of denial.

[Juan2.0]

i hope you're not serious. you're a nerd, and if your last post is indeed serious then you are in need of therapy to get over your severe case of denial.I was kidding...jeez...get off my ****! :p

[nate lovett]

juan is really a wannabe backstreet boy.

i really should have gotten a pic of him last year to show everyone. i'll try to this year.

[F!]

Yeah, which is nowhere near as bad as being nothing without having to trace a photo, or nothing without having to pay someone else to draw for you.

Turner's art has it's issues but it's not the worst I've seen.I agree. I wasn't pitching to have Turner excommunicated or anything. It'd just be nice if the colorists started getting the credit they deserve.

[dfbovey]

I agree. I wasn't pitching to have Turner excommunicated or anything. It'd just be nice if the colorists started getting the credit they deserve.

Totally agree. He leaves alot up to the colorist for sure.

[Juan2.0]

w00t w00t! :D

[NJHinesJr]

This thread makes me laugh......I'm surprised at the amount of haters on this board.

Every artist on that list, whether you like them or not, are doing what most of you dream about: Draw comics and become a name doing it.

Instead of pointless crap like this thread (you can't beat em'), try doing something......like they did (join em').

Your attitude should be "If that ****er can make it in this biz, so can I!", not "He sucks and should stop doing comics."

However.....don't think I'm trying to get you all open, continue doing what you do; really, it's all good anyway.

Now.....feel free to hate on me.:cool:

Not that it will do any good.

[NJHinesJr]

But then again.....the title of this particular forum says it all:p

[dfbovey]

Yeah, maybe I could make it in comics if I traced photos or paid someone else to draw for me. Oh wait, if that's what it takes... no thanks.

Take "trying to make it into the industry" out of the equation and my opinions of Greg Land and Pat Lee would still be the same.

[NJHinesJr]

Yeah, maybe I could make it in comics if I traced photos or paid someone else to draw for me. Oh wait, if that's what it takes... no thanks.

Take "trying to make it into the industry" out of the equation and my opinions of Greg Land and Pat Lee would still be the same.

I meant to add a disclaimer at the bottom of my previous post that says "except Greg Land"

Can't give him any props.

[dfbovey]

Pat Lee doesn't deserve any either. He's the one that hires someone else to do his breakdowns for him, and then doesn't give them credit.

[NJHinesJr]

Pat Lee doesn't deserve any either. He's the one that hires someone else to do his breakdowns for him, and then doesn't give them credit.

That happens more often than you might think with a lot of creators. No big deal there.

I think I soared over some scalps....like I said...It's all good though, carry on.

[dfbovey]

I've heard of people having assistants to help out with backgrounds or other tedious things. But I've never heard of anyone doing entire layouts with it being credited to someone else. Usually, a breakdown artist is given credit in the book.

I think it's all pretty cheap from a true art standpoint. But if you don't see comicbook art as anything but an assembly line... then I guess I can see where you are coming from.

[NJHinesJr]

I think I soared over some scalps....like I said...It's all good though, carry on.

[dfbovey]

Yeah, you must have.

[Huerta]

That happens more often than you might think with a lot of creators. No big deal there.

I think I soared over some scalps....like I said...It's all good though, carry on.

It is actually. Some of us work for our money and some don't. But that's what seperates the real talent from the fake.

[Juan2.0]

juan is really a wannabe backstreet boy.

i really should have gotten a pic of him last year to show everyone. i'll try to this year.:p :p :p

I'll only be there one day this year...we'll be going up first thing Friday morning...spending all day there...and then driving back home that evening.

[Chris Major]

Just to drop a little line here... Pat Lee is not so much a hack or a rip-off as much as he is an anachronism.
Way back in the Silver and Golden Ages of comics, what he does now was just your common thing! What's more, artist mimicking another, more popular artist would not get credited: the artist they emulated would get the credit!!

And don't you guys go imagining that's only Pat Lee. It's not that uncommon to have breakdowns or layouts done by another artist before the main one goes to work.. albeit Pat Lee doesn't draw much considering how much work his "breakdown" artists do!!

Hey, he could use your basic art student and not pay him, telling him "it's good for experience, kid" :D

[thepunisher]

Hey, he could use your basic art student and not pay him, telling him "it's good for experience, kid" :D

Actually, if he doesn't give the kid credit in the publication as a breakdown artist, then it doesn't count as experience. A lot of times, people want to see your name in their as this or that. Not Pat Lee's name as doing all the artwork. That kid just shot himself in the head by agreeing to that type of deal.

I agree with Popninja as well on the whole Byrne thing. That man made some historic comics when he was in his prime in the 80's. I loved Superman, The FF, X-Men, Avengers West Coast and all the other books he did. He was one of the great inspirations for me as well as I'm sure many other artists to get into comics today.

You can sit there and say that you don't like his style and he hasn't changed, but it's like arguing that Dr. J. couldn't hang in today's NBA. Wrong.

It's all evolutionary. We take what we like and format it to fit us. It's progression, without Byrne, you get no Jim Lee, Adam Hughes, or artists of that calibre. Without Lee you get no Charest, Campbell, even Turner. It's all influenced from one artist to another.

Plus, like someone else said, style is what gets you there. If you change that, then what have you got? I look at a lot of artist here on these boards and I don't see anyone changing their style much. Most of you even say that you're 'trying to go in a different direction with your style' but when you pull back and look at the work you have done, at it's core is the style you formed to get you to that point.

Besides, I like Byrne voicing his crazy-a$$ed opinions. It let's me know he's still alive. I'm always surprised to hear that he is still alive every time I go into LCBS and listen to what crap he posted this week or last week.

[Huerta]

If there wasnt Byrne there wouldve been someone else. And Dr. J, Bird, Magic and Isiah all retired at their peak and left the game with respect.

[Popninja]

If there wasnt Byrne there wouldve been someone else. And Dr. J, Bird, Magic and Isiah all retired at their peak and left the game with respect.

You need to be told how retarded that reads.

Drawing comics should never be equated with playing basketball. Guys like Toth, Eisner and Kirby were drawing until the end.

[Huerta]

Punisher Brought up Basketball so I answered that part of his post. And I agree, sports and Art arent the same because Great artists keep EVOLVING.

[Manji]

Great artists keep EVOLVING.

I believe that really sums it all up. So many 'great comic artists' aren't really that great. They were great for a period of time in their career, but as a result of either ego or some sort of a comfort zone they become stale and boring. They no longer push themselves or have the desire, but the 'push' and desire is what makes truly great artists great.

[Popninja]

Punisher Brought up Basketball so I answered that part of his post. And I agree, sports and Art arent the same because Great artists keep EVOLVING.

Now you've lost me.

Name a couple of these Great artists that keep EVOLVING...

...that have worked in comics for decades...

...and currently still work in comics.

[Manji]

1. Adam Hughes
2. Travis Charest

[Dri]

It's pretty tough to evolve when a person works in mass production illustration like comics because you generally have to keep to that that you built because certain factors had influenced would have influenced an artist to reach that particular point. Having the time is an important factor. 23 pages a month...and that doesn't involve concept work of thumbnails.

I'm being taught by two book illustrators (regarded as the best in Australia) who were put into projects where they were allowed time to really research and build their ideas. Both of their works are varied and they use a huge range of mediums helping them evolve in their artistic progress. Add to that they had the time. 6 months for a 33 page book.

I think it's unfair the judge comic artists that keep to their style. Travis Charest may have hugely increased his technical abilities but his basic face model is the same as when he started in the early 90s.

I'd love to see Michael Turner evolve his art as well because it'd be great to see if he grasped anatomy and form.

I may not be a fan of John Byrne's style (don't like the way he does faces) but he did influence Dale Keown. I couldn't hate on that.

[Huerta]

I believe that really sums it all up. So many 'great comic artists' aren't really that great. They were great for a period of time in their career, but as a result of either ego or some sort of a comfort zone they become stale and boring. They no longer push themselves or have the desire, but the 'push' and desire is what makes truly great artists great.

You got it.

And the artists in the industry I can think of who keep changing and pushing their limits are Larsen, Charest, Hughes, Keown, Bachalo, Miller, Yu, Mignola, Ottley, Dell' Otto, Capullo, Immonen, Walker and etc...

All those guys are learning, taking what they like and applying it to themselves. They're not settling for what made them popular but just pushing themselves like real artists would. And I'm only like this because of my Uncle and he told me theres no excuse for not pushing yourself.


Now you've lost me.

Name a couple of these Great artists that keep EVOLVING...

...that have worked in comics for decades...

...and currently still work in comics.

When they reach their 60's I'll come back and post about em'.

[Logan]

You need to be told how retarded that reads.

Drawing comics should never be equated with playing basketball. Guys like Toth, Eisner and Kirby were drawing until the end.

and you need to be told that just because he has an opinion different from you that doesn't give you license to insult him. this is the 2nd time at least that you've done this in this thread. i know az doesn't need me to defend him, i'm saying this because it honestly pisses me off that you can't just deal with the fact that not everyone is going to think the same as you.

tolerance for the win.

[Juan2.0]

Here we go again... :rolleyes:

Damn...NERDS! :D

[Juan2.0]

All those guys are learning, taking what they like and applying it to themselves. They're not settling for what made them popular but just pushing themselves like real artists would. I have to agree with you on that one...artists should always constantly be evolving...and that is one of my goals this year is to really push myself and my art farther than I ever have before by trying new things, studying different new artists to incorporate into my art...and just generally pushing myself to really get out of my comfort zone with drawing and try something new...oh, and no more tracing either. None. That's why I haven't done a single commission this year...I don't even want to be tempted to do a reproduction commission for anyone. I want everything to be 100% me from now on and to really push myself to evolve very quickly this year. :)

[Popninja]

and you need to be told that just because he has an opinion different from you that doesn't give you license to insult him. this is the 2nd time at least that you've done this in this thread. i know az doesn't need me to defend him, i'm saying this because it honestly pisses me off that you can't just deal with the fact that not everyone is going to think the same as you.

tolerance for the win.

And you need to be told that this is how discussion works. We don't have to agree with opinions; we don't even have to accept opinions. We can listen to them, and understand that people are entitled to have them, but we do not have to agree with them, and best of all, we CAN argue with them.

If someone told me that they think all people with blue eyes are geniuses, I would let them know how stupid that sounds, whether they really believe it or not.

You also need to be told that you don't need to play policeman, Logan. We have moderators here for that. If I'm out of line, I want to hear it from Terry, MC or Bovey, or another moderator, and not from you.

I'll use Juan's line here: Logan, get off of my dick, man. You're making my wife jealous.

[Huerta]

tolerance for the win.

Eh. I just brush it off. Its teh InteRnET?!?!


If someone told me that they think all people with blue eyes are geniuses, I would let them know how stupid that sounds, whether they really believe it or not.

Yeah... I said something just like that. lol

[Popninja]

Eh. I just brush it off. Its teh InteRnET?!?!

Yeah, that too.

I had someone, who will remain nameless, PM me expressing concern that I didn't like him. I told him basically the same thing: don't take to heart anything that someone says on an internet message board. I don't know you and you don't know me. For me, it's all fun, for the most part. No matter how a post I write reads, I'm typically never actually pissed about it. I'm just discussing something.

[Logan]

And you need to be told that this is how discussion works. We don't have to agree with opinions; we don't even have to accept opinions. We can listen to them, and understand that people are entitled to have them, but we do not have to agree with them, and best of all, we CAN argue with them.

If someone told me that they think all people with blue eyes are geniuses, I would let them know how stupid that sounds, whether they really believe it or not.

You also need to be told that you don't need to play policeman, Logan. We have moderators here for that. If I'm out of line, I want to hear it from Terry, MC or Bovey, or another moderator, and not from you.

I'll use Juan's line here: Logan, get off of my dick, man. You're making my wife jealous.


wow man, you sure told me.

look, i'm just asking you to stop insulting people. i'm annoyed that you have to call people names whenever they don't agree with you and yeah, that adds up to i think you're out of line.

if you don't want to hear about it, too bad.. just like you feel you have the right to talk enormous amounts of shit, i have the right to tell you it's frustrating to deal with you lowering the discussion to playground name calling every time. i don't have to be a moderator to say that, either. this is a public board, people are going to react to you when you act like an ass.

you may call that "playing the policeman" but that's not what it is. it's me asking you to stfu if you can't stop using insults instead of logic to make your point. if everyone followed your example PJ would be a giant flame fest. i can always count on you to be some kind of reactionary whenever byrne's name comes up, and it's pathetic. he doesn't need a rabid defender, jumping from thread to thread calling anyone who doesn't like his work a retard.

[F!]

Ohana means family!

[nate lovett]

http://us.movies1.yimg.com/movies.yahoo.com/images/hv/photo/movie_pix/walt_disney/lilo___stitch/lilo2.jpg

[Logan]

Ohana means family!



http://us.movies1.yimg.com/movies.yahoo.com/images/hv/photo/movie_pix/walt_disney/lilo___stitch/lilo2.jpg

yeah you guys are right. sorry, pop.. you just really get under my skin sometimes. PJ is what you and i and everyone else makes of it, and i feel like if people start insulting each other then we are going to lose what makes this place so great. and no, i'm not talking about the manbeef.

[Popninja]

yeah you guys are right. sorry, pop.. you just really get under my skin sometimes. PJ is what you and i and everyone else makes of it, and i feel like if people start insulting each other then we are going to lose what makes this place so great. and no, i'm not talking about the manbeef.

I guess you and I think differently on what constitutes an insult. I don't consider stating that something "reads retarded" as being insulting.

However, if you considered it insulting, Aztek, then I apologize to you.

No one gets left behind.

[Physicdesigns]

I think evolution is ineresting but its a lie. Evolution implies your more adapted to drawing specifically, or loosely better in general. When in fact you reach a point you dont get better so much as different. whether thats good or bad is the thing. truth is IMO good art is good art, did artists evolve past michaelangelo? does madureira work beat arthur adams Classic X men covers?

You may think so, i dont. technolgy may have advanced, thats about it. Oh yeah mentioning travest and hughes.... yeah they make good pictures..., but niether of them can do a regular book, niether of them can publish a monthly comic. The evolved... into illustrators.

In byrnes case, hes simply not as good as he used to be, its understandable hes 57, he doesnt have that much to prove. his eyesight probably isnt as good etc. But hes still better than a lot of people in comics, and his bitching on a forum, thats basically what we all do here, you think your gonna stop getting mad and ranting if you get penciling carreer? probably not, does that mean you cant pencil, nope.

[Juan2.0]

I'll use Juan's line here: Logan, get off of my dick, man. You're making my wife jealous. :D :D :D

[Chris Major]

You may think so, i dont. technolgy may have advanced, thats about it. Oh yeah mentioning travest and hughes.... yeah they make good pictures..., but niether of them can do a regular book, niether of them can publish a monthly comic. The evolved... into illustrators.


I don't think that's such a great argument for discrediting them. The monthly, 22-page comic business in the US is not only draining and demanding, it's also at the expense of a decent level of storytelling out there. I sincerely believe that it is incredibly idealistic to think that a monthly comic book will always be fresh, innovative, have a poignant story and be beautiful to look at.

If Travis Charest would need three months to make a stunningly beautiful book from cover to cover, I say, let him take three months and two weeks.

Take Terry Moore for instance. Strangers in Paradise comes out every two months. He writes and does the art. The storytelling is compelling, the art delivers, his story arcs are solid and within his own continuity. I'd rather wait two months for a good book than buy overhyped run-of-the-mill crap every month.
I mean, there are so many continuity errors in Civil War, for instance, that I don't even want to hear about it anymore. My most recent beef in that department? The third Summers brother in X-Men: Deadly Genesis. What an incredibly stupid load of crap. Total break of continuity there. And a cheap storyline to back it up, too.

I guess I'm more of a European Bande Dessinee/Graphic Novel type, but there's only so much the 22 pages monthly can do. Every story should have an ending to tell... That's what makes it a story... but the almighty dollar makes the big companies forget that entirely.

Artists are made different for a reason. To force them to conform to specific work ethics and schedules and procedures is counter-nature to the very definition of art. The guy that pencils a 22-page book in a month is no more or less of a comic book artist that the chick who writes, pencils and inks her 48-page book in 5 months.

[Popninja]

I don't think that's such a great argument for discrediting them. The monthly, 22-page comic business in the US is not only draining and demanding, it's also at the expense of a decent level of storytelling out there. I sincerely believe that it is incredibly idealistic to think that a monthly comic book will always be fresh, innovative, have a poignant story and be beautiful to look at.

If Travis Charest would need three months to make a stunningly beautiful book from cover to cover, I say, let him take three months and two weeks.

Take Terry Moore for instance. Strangers in Paradise comes out every two months. He writes and does the art. The storytelling is compelling, the art delivers, his story arcs are solid and within his own continuity. I'd rather wait two months for a good book than buy overhyped run-of-the-mill crap every month.
I mean, there are so many continuity errors in Civil War, for instance, that I don't even want to hear about it anymore. My most recent beef in that department? The third Summers brother in X-Men: Deadly Genesis. What an incredibly stupid load of crap. Total break of continuity there. And a cheap storyline to back it up, too.

I guess I'm more of a European Bande Dessinee/Graphic Novel type, but there's only so much the 22 pages monthly can do. Every story should have an ending to tell... That's what makes it a story... but the almighty dollar makes the big companies forget that entirely.

Artists are made different for a reason. To force them to conform to specific work ethics and schedules and procedures is counter-nature to the very definition of art. The guy that pencils a 22-page book in a month is no more or less of a comic book artist that the chick who writes, pencils and inks her 48-page book in 5 months.

All good points. I don't think any artist here will dispute any of that. I think every artist should be given the time they need to deliver their best work possible. But, at the same time, hopefully whatever company is publishing the comic won't solicit it for February if the chick can't have it done until July.

[Juan2.0]

I think every artist should be given the time they need to deliver their best work possible. Even Steve McNiven? ;) :p

[Popninja]

Yes, even Steve McNiven. Marvel should be held responsible in every instance that a book is late, because they should know what all of their artists are capable of. And in the case of Civil War, they're so anxious to get it out there, when they should have it all set first, even have a few issues in the can first.

The most frustrating part is they don't seem to learn from their mistakes; they just keep making the same ones over and over.

[Juan2.0]

Yes, even Steve McNiven. Marvel should be held responsible in every instance that a book is late, because they should know what all of their artists are capable of. And in the case of Civil War, they're so anxious to get it out there, when they should have it all set first, even have a few issues in the can first.

The most frustrating part is they don't seem to learn from their mistakes; they just keep making the same ones over and over. Is the Civil War (McNiven's series) over yet? I keep wanting to pick them up...but I'm waiting for them to complete the run so I can pick up the lot off eBay for cheap. Have they finished it up already?

[Chris Major]

All good points. I don't think any artist here will dispute any of that. I think every artist should be given the time they need to deliver their best work possible. But, at the same time, hopefully whatever company is publishing the comic won't solicit it for February if the chick can't have it done until July.

Yeah, I'm probably more of a Graphic Novel/Self-publishing kind than anything else. It's more appealing to me I guess.
Might be why I'm keeping my day job :D

[Juan2.0]

Hello? Civil War...done? Yes? No? A little help here. :o

[Popninja]

I think it's got one more issue to go. I believe it was a 7 issue series, and I know they've published #6, so...

But then, you never know with Marvel. They sometimes will add issues and stupid shit like that.

[Juan2.0]

Cool. I'll pick them up later then. That way once they aren't hot anymore...people will nickel and dime them on eBay so I can save some cash off the cover price. :)

[Huerta]

Hello? Civil War...done? Yes? No? A little help here. :o

Google is your friend.

[Juan2.0]

Google is your friend. Does everyone have to be a smartass around here? :rolleyes: ;) :D

[Justice41]

Bah all of you suck and couldn't hold the jock straps of most of those artists except for Lee and Land. Now stop with the chick fighting and get back to your boards.
But seriously, the reason people hate on some of these artists is well just plain ole envy. I also love the cycle of a fan. First love and adoration which leads to indifference which leads to eventual down right hatred which leads to wanting that person dead. You guys got serial murderer mentalities. This is what happens when you have continued to read comics past your time. For you guys bitching and dissing it's time to move on to books without pictures and funny colors. You guys bitch about Byrne but are doing exactly like you claim he's doing. Never hate anyone, you'll just wind up like the person you hate. Ask Dan Blather and Dick Nixon.
Now get back to drawing slackers.

[Juan2.0]

I've been drawing all morning and I plan to draw straight through and well into the evening! :o

[Justice41]

Yeah yeah yeah yappity yap yap get back to slinging lead you slackasses.

[Juan2.0]

Yes sir! :o

[Huerta]

http://www.byrnerobotics.com/forum/uploads/CraigMarkley/2004-05-11_155654_John_Byrne_Toothless.jpg

Trust me. I'm not jealous.

[Justice41]

Never said Jealous I said Envious. Words means things.

[dfbovey]

Has nothing to do with envy or jealousy for me. People are capable of giving opinions without bias or outside emotion. If I tell you that I don't like Michael Bay movies, it's not because I'm envious that he's making them. And it's no different here.

Can't say that I've ever truely liked any of the work from the artists on this list. Although I do respect Byrne... not really because I enjoy his work but I can see where his work influenced some of the artist that I do like. And I also realize that he's one of the top 5 artists of all time when it comes to the impact that he had on the industry.

[thepunisher]

If there wasnt Byrne there wouldve been someone else. And Dr. J, Bird, Magic and Isiah all retired at their peak and left the game with respect.

Yes there would have been someone else, but how would he have influenced the coming artists? Definitely not in thte same way that Byrne did. Enough of this for me though, I need to study and get some drawlings started. Peace people.

Oh and you totally missed my point on the basketball correllation.

I think you need to go back and review some of the retirees you mention though, cause I remember the same guys retiring and it wasn't at the top of their game that they left. Especially Magic Johnson, but that's a discussion for another thread.

[Huerta]

I got the basketball analogy and we will never know. Byrne was doing the Atom for DC some months ago so we CAN compare him to the artists of today. And he was average.

[Physicdesigns]

I don't think that's such a great argument for discrediting them. The monthly, 22-page comic business in the US is not only draining and demanding, it's also at the expense of a decent level of storytelling out there. I sincerely believe that it is incredibly idealistic to think that a monthly comic book will always be fresh, innovative, have a poignant story and be beautiful to look at.

If Travis Charest would need three months to make a stunningly beautiful book from cover to cover, I say, let him take three months and two weeks.

Take Terry Moore for instance. Strangers in Paradise comes out every two months. He writes and does the art. The storytelling is compelling, the art delivers, his story arcs are solid and within his own continuity. I'd rather wait two months for a good book than buy overhyped run-of-the-mill crap every month.
I mean, there are so many continuity errors in Civil War, for instance, that I don't even want to hear about it anymore. My most recent beef in that department? The third Summers brother in X-Men: Deadly Genesis. What an incredibly stupid load of crap. Total break of continuity there. And a cheap storyline to back it up, too.

I guess I'm more of a European Bande Dessinee/Graphic Novel type, but there's only so much the 22 pages monthly can do. Every story should have an ending to tell... That's what makes it a story... but the almighty dollar makes the big companies forget that entirely.

Artists are made different for a reason. To force them to conform to specific work ethics and schedules and procedures is counter-nature to the very definition of art. The guy that pencils a 22-page book in a month is no more or less of a comic book artist that the chick who writes, pencils and inks her 48-page book in 5 months.



well charest last i checked doesnt even try to do sequentials, and hughes, they wont let him do wonderwoman till he completes his whole run ahead of time.
This isnt to say they arent good and highly skilled, but its a different thing, comparing their cover work and illustrations to other peoples sequentials isnt really on point.

As too time, well manga artists tend to do like 8-12 pages a week, so its not implausible to make it fast, it just doesnt work with certain artists.

basically im not really disagreeing, im just saying, compare people who are doing similar tasks.

Anyhow all these guys are at the point where they can get work. so they aint going anywhere till they want to.

[Justice41]

Has nothing to do with envy or jealousy for me. People are capable of giving opinions without bias or outside emotion. If I tell you that I don't like Michael Bay movies, it's not because I'm envious that he's making them. And it's no different here.

Can't say that I've ever truely liked any of the work from the artists on this list. Although I do respect Byrne... not really because I enjoy his work but I can see where his work influenced some of the artist that I do like. And I also realize that he's one of the top 5 artists of all time when it comes to the impact that he had on the industry.
It was all tongue in cheek man Just proving an absurd point by being absurd.

[Popninja]

I got the basketball analogy and we will never know. Byrne was doing the Atom for DC some months ago so we CAN compare him to the artists of today. And he was average.

I'll take monthly Byrne over "Guess-the-Month" Dodson, Lee and Quitely any time.

[Huerta]

Nah, you can keep those guys. I'll take Ottley, Yu and McGuinness.

[F!]

well charest last i checked doesnt even try to do sequentials, and hughes, they wont let him do wonderwoman till he completes his whole run ahead of time.Actually, it's at Hughes' request that the book isn't solicited until all the issues are complete. DC would rather make a buck sooner rather than later, but Hughes knows his work rate and respects his fans enough to make them wait so they can have the book released on a regular schedule rather than piecemeal like ASB&R.

[Physicdesigns]

well thats good to hear in anycase. Still much as i love his art, i wouldnt try to compare him to say, romita. Dif artists have totally different goals and methods like comparing a marathon runner to a sprinter.

[gatorboy]

Rob Liefeld is too easy.

Turner on the other hand has always left me cold. And his women aren't really that attractive. Never understood his popularity except for maybe being grouped with the right property at the right time.

[SHAMWOW!]

did Rob just dissed Pat Lee ""I have missed ship dates on my titles but have never substituted the quality. I could easily follow in the footsteps of other creators and have ghost artists produce more Youngblood material but I have a vision that looks further down the road than the here and now. "

(http://www.comicbookresources.com/columns/?column=13)

[Morganza]

John Byrne is a creative and artist genius! nuff' said

[Justice41]

John Byrne is a creative and artist genius! nuff' said
Well said .tencharacters

[Juan2.0]

John Byrne is a creative and artist genius! nuff' said What about the people who try to draw exactly like him because they can't think of their own style??? :confused:

[Popninja]

What about the people who try to draw exactly like him because they can't think of their own style??? :confused:

You mean like the way you try to ape Finch?

Oh, wait, here you go...

...;)

[Juan2.0]

You mean like the way you try to ape Finch?

Oh, wait, here you go...

...;) No...I meant are they geniuses too? ;)

[Morganza]

What about the people who try to draw exactly like him because they can't think of their own style??? :confused:

I don't know of anyone who draws exactly like Byrne, I know people who draw like Finch though.

[Juan2.0]

I don't know of anyone who draws exactly like Byrne, I know people who draw like Finch though.Then how will I ever get the answer to my question on whether or not they are geniuses too? :(

[Morganza]

Then how will I ever get the answer to my question on whether or not they are geniuses too? :(

Ask an intelligent question first.

[Juan2.0]

Meh.......

[Popninja]

I don't know of anyone who draws exactly like Byrne, I know people who draw like Finch though.

There were some straight-up Byrne clones a decade or more ago. Victor Bridges comes to mind, as well as Anthony Castrillo, neither of them made it very far though. Castrillo did some X-Force issues, while Erik Larsen employed Bridges during the first years of Image. I would say that, to some degree, Dale Keown in his first few issues of Incredible Hulk was a Byrne-clone.

And Juan, your question makes no sense. I'm not comparing, but Kirby was considered a genius and I believe this to be true. It doesn't make his clones geniuses, just wannabes. Same in the case of anyone who borrows a style, be it Finch's or Madureira's.

[Juan2.0]

There were some straight-up Byrne clones a decade or more ago. Victor Bridges comes to mind, as well as Anthony Castrillo, neither of them made it very far though. Castrillo did some X-Force issues, while Erik Larsen employed Bridges during the first years of Image. I would say that, to some degree, Dale Keown in his first few issues of Incredible Hulk was a Byrne-clone.

And Juan, your question makes no sense. I'm not comparing, but Kirby was considered a genius and I believe this to be true. It doesn't make his clones geniuses, just wannabes. Same in the case of anyone who borrows a style, be it Finch's or Madureira's.
What I want to know is how do these guys come up with their styles in the first place...is it just that they start out imitating someone else and slowly evolve over time...or do they just start out drawing in their own style and that's that. I mean take Travis Charest for instance...the guy was a straight up Jim Lee wannabe/clone in the beginning and then he just started doing his own thing...but what caused it? What made him start drawing in a different style...what made him give up trying to be like Lee? I guess that is what I don't understand...I mean I like Finch (obviously), but I don't want to draw exactly like him either. I want my own style...but how do you change that when you are used to drawing something a certain way or in a certain style? I figured with my art, what I would do is try to learn to draw like one of my favorite artists...in my case that would've been what started out as Todd McFarlane and just add new things into the mix to try and create my own style. Unfortunately it didn't work...I started out trying to do the Todd thing...then I turned to a Turner thing...and then a Finch thing...and lately it's been a Benes thing....but how do you take all of that and discard it and create something new and refreshing that people will really dig? Something that is easy for you to draw, so not only will you be faster and get more stuff done, but just easy in the amount of headache that your art gives you. I mean I love drawing more than anything in this life...but there are some days when it's like pulling teeth just to get anything even halfway decent to puke out onto the page...

[amadarwin]

It's real simple Juan.

Quit aping his mistakes, and instead, try and improve upon them.

Aping his mistakes (often referred to as 'style') only teaches you to draw how he draws. By being cognizant of his mistakes and trying to improve upon them, you'll find something that suits you better. Sure, you'll keep a few lines here and there because you can't figure out how to improve, but in the areas you DO have success in, you'll realize that you've developed your 'style' while still retaining the influence you originally possessed.

[Juan2.0]

I'm not even trying to draw like Finch anymore...:mad:...with the New Freesia stuff, I'm just trying to do my own thing...although there will always be influences...to some degree. :o

I also have this theory now that the pagework will really help me break away from those influences...just for the simple fact that I'm trying out new things...from movement, to perspective, to whatever...it helps me focus more on the technical aspects of the images and that alone I think will help me grow as an artist a lot faster. Time will tell. I'm shooting to have the NF project fully complete by March 1st...so we'll see how things go.

[Huerta]

If you want to have a different style in your art you have to start looking at new, different artists and stop looking at all those Marvel/top cow guys.

[Juan2.0]

If you want to have a different style in your art you have to start looking at new, different artists and stop looking at all those Marvel/top cow guys.I have been...for the past few days, I've been studying Cho and how he draws women because I'm tired of drawing skinny, cracked-out chicks with no rib cages. :cool:

[Popninja]

I have been...for the past few days, I've been studying Cho and how he draws women because I'm tired of drawing skinny, cracked-out chicks with no rib cages. :cool:

Cho's a good start. Good move not using your Mom for reference anymore.

:eek:

[Juan2.0]

Cho's a good start. Good move not using your Mom for reference anymore.

:eek: * shakes fist * :mad:

It's too early in the morning to start that crap! Gimme a break! :p

[Justice41]

Charest moved to France, I believe and was heavily influenced by the artists there, hence his new more Euro look.
Look at Barry Smith, He was a bad Kirby clone who decided to take some time and re learn how to draw.
It takes a concerted effort to break from what you know and do to something newer, newer for you at least.
Forget Cho. Forget all the comics artists, go look at Raphael or Da vinci or any of the Masters. Learn the craft which includes perspectives landscaping, hell learn how to draw buildings and cars and stuff that a lot of artists neglect to learn, instead they trace from car mags.
Works this way Juan. When I was learning Golf a golfer told me never watch anyone else's swing or putt because you will only pick up and remember their bad habits and mistakes.
Oh and Anthony Castrillo still draws like Byrne and does some work for Digital Webbing. You can see his stuff here. That guy is fast.
http://valiantfans.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5164

[Physicdesigns]

i think what constitutes style is mostly you practicing finishing, and using different sources from other people, whether it be life, grafitti old painting, everyone has a different sight, learn to draw what you see in cool ways, it will take some time before one develops their own style, look at campbells start to finish. Charest for example probably combined some of teh things he liked in art that he wasnt able to quite get when he started. I think he also started as a graphic designer, so take some of that.

Anyhow, i dont really think turner or finch are geniuses, to me their styles are permutations of silvestri, not to mention turner has a lot of mistakes he makes consistently. But the ones who were geniuses, well maybe they just are. Posessing teh potential to surpass other artists and have a unique take on something thats been done many times.

[SHAMWOW!]

easy answer juan just ape Charest:o worked for copiel,mcniven:p

i'm curious, those who voted other, who should have been included then. and not in jest but in seriousity

[Juan2.0]

easy answer juan just ape Charest:o worked for copiel,mcniven:p

i'm curious, those who voted other, who should have been included then. and not in jest but in seriousity

Finch has Charest in his art...so does Yu...maybe I should...all my favorite artists have Charest in their stuff. :o

[Justice41]

Which goes to show how inbred this community of artists is. It's one thing for editors to request that type of style but another when someone sees this as a means to get in. Charest still has many flaws, which you can see in the clones and their clones. If your going to ape at least start from a master so that even your watered down version will still be at least better than most. Like the Frazetta apers, Bisley, Boris, Brom, and the like.

[Juan2.0]

* sigh * Reading about all this just makes me frustrated...AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!! !!!!!!........I can't seem to draw worth a shit today after reading all this stuff this morning. Now I'm back to sitting here worrying about how my artwork looks to everyone else. ****! This is the type of shit that makes me just want to give it up because it feels like I keep pounding my head against a brick wall because I can't seem to get anywhere with my art. My style isn't good enough...my style is too much like Finch's/Turner's/whoever. Goddammit, I just want to ****ing draw and be myself!!!!!!!

I want my own style...but I also want to be fast so I can get shit done on time...dammit...dammit...dammit...I'm so ****ing frustrated again...

* breaks pencil in half...throws it across room...throws sketchbook too...rips page of artwork he's been working on all day in half...throws it to the side...stomps out of the apartment...slams door *

**** this shit! :mad:

[SHAMWOW!]

"Fear leads to Anger. Anger leads to Hate. Hate leads to suffering."

[amadarwin]

which all lead to the dark side of the force.

[dfbovey]

Juan, don't let it frustrate you so much. There have been some great artists out there who started out with a style that looked like so and so, and they develop into their own thing given time and repetition. The more you work the more chances you give yourself to find something uniquely you.

I don't know that anyone is truely unique. I have my influences, you have yours, Nate has his and on and on. I don't think people look at my work and see something that says "there's Bovey's work". But my stuff used to look alot more like Jim Lee's than it does now. It's just a matter of growing and evolving.

[Justice41]

Heh I still draw like all my faves like Silvestri Lee and Buscema. I'm just not trying to sell a book with that style.
Juan my best advice is to get off the net finish your book get it printed and sell it. You will never get anywhere constantly looking for approval. Just do the work. This was said to Brett Ratner before he did X3, ignore the net and places like AICN because they will just rip you apart.

[Juan2.0]

Juan my best advice is to get off the net finish your book get it printed and sell it. You will never get anywhere constantly looking for approval. Just do the work. This was said to Brett Ratner before he did X3, ignore the net and places like AICN because they will just rip you apart. That's what I have been thinking about all afternoon...because there are so many clones out there already who are getting paid work...and those clones will eventually change over time. Everyone starts out trying to ape someone else...that's just how artists are...we learn to draw from looking at other artist's work. My stuff may have some Finch/McFarlane influences in it right now...but I'm sure over time they'll work their way out and something new will slowly be incorporated. I think I just take everyone's advice to heart sometimes, because I really REALLY need to do something with my art. It's either now or never...so I'm giving myself until the end of the year to see what I can do with it. If things don't work out this year, I am honestly calling it quits and going to my local hospital to get a job that pays good...and then probably start going back to college after that...but I want to give this art thing one last chance before I throw it all away. This has been my life's dream for the past 23 years...and it's time to actually give it my all and see what happens. I want to have the New Freesia stuff done by March 1st and then I want to get back on Allison and get her finished up so I can have her published before the Wizard World Chicago show.

[dfbovey]

Yeah, Roy is right. You just need to get the ball rolling and get things done. If you wait for perfection it will never come and you'll keep finding reasons to redo something. Just do it, and let things evolve naturally as you work.

[Chris Major]

My take:

there will always be clones.
You can't help it. What you need is to deconstruct how you draw, to identify from where comes each and every technique you use, and leave it behind. Then reconstruct your style using theories and applications, not examples.

I'm glad to say that I'm not a master, but I don't think my style ever reeked of this-and-this-and-that artist. Is it because I went through Fine Arts and then Fashion instead of Illustration and graphic design? Who knows.

There are of course artists who use techniques that are mind-boggling but there only so much a single artist can do like another. I'd never get the thin-line texturing that Charest does, neither will I ever like my style if I started over-crosshatching faces and bodies like Jim Lee and Silvestri.

remember, it's NOT because they are in the business that they do everything right: rather, it's because they do *some* things right that they are in the business, Huge difference. For instance: personally, I can't stand Cho. His proportions are horrible, his lines are wobbly, and his costume details and renderings, inconsistent. Doesn't mean he can't lay out a page with impressive skill or that his faces don't convey the proper feel for the scenes, though.

Did you ever know that Picasso forced himself to draw with his left hand to acquire the style he had in Cubism? Prior to that he was an excellent figurative artist with impressive, realistic rendering skills. So for a comic book artist, that'd mean, remember your terms, but leave your visual references behind. See what comes out of it.
And repeat.
And repeat.
And again.

...heck, I've got the "X-Men: Inferno" collection right next to me now, and lemme tell you, Silvestri was really a beginner in there. Little texturing, simple faces, etc. But his style evolved. That's the power of repeating over and over and over. You can't jumpstart a personal style by observing other artists, and you can't bypass natural evolution by ignoring your own vsualization.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have some lead to burn...

[Justice41]

Juan I should scan in this book I was drawing about 10 years ago and you can see from page to page not only influences but swipes , swipes i didn't even know I was doing. I think I will and send you a .pdf file of it just to show how it doesn't hurt to have influences. Just acknowledge it and get on with the doing. Remember we are our own worst enemies. No one can inflict as much damage as oneself.

[Chris Major]

Juan I should scan in this book I was drawing about 10 years ago and you can see from page to page not only influences but swipes , swipes i didn't even know I was doing. I think I will and send you a .pdf file of it just to show how it doesn't hurt to have influences. Just acknowledge it and get on with the doing. Remember we are our own worst enemies. No one can inflict as much damage as oneself.

Amen to that!
God knows I looked at Jim Lee's women and thought, "My God if I could draw like that"...
Now I'm older and I say, "hey, Lee can only draw ONE woman... I'm not so sucky after all!!"

How about that? An flashback thread where we'd post our old, old, OLD and sucky artwork from our humble beginnings ? :D

[Huerta]

That's what I have been thinking about all afternoon...because there are so many clones out there already who are getting paid work...and those clones will eventually change over time. Everyone starts out trying to ape someone else...that's just how artists are...we learn to draw from looking at other artist's work. My stuff may have some Finch/McFarlane influences in it right now...but I'm sure over time they'll work their way out and something new will slowly be incorporated. I think I just take everyone's advice to heart sometimes, because I really REALLY need to do something with my art. It's either now or never...so I'm giving myself until the end of the year to see what I can do with it. If things don't work out this year, I am honestly calling it quits and going to my local hospital to get a job that pays good...and then probably start going back to college after that...but I want to give this art thing one last chance before I throw it all away. This has been my life's dream for the past 23 years...and it's time to actually give it my all and see what happens. I want to have the New Freesia stuff done by March 1st and then I want to get back on Allison and get her finished up so I can have her published before the Wizard World Chicago show.


Completely stop looking at your favorite artists like Finch and whoever else u look at. Just stop completely. Dont stare at their pictures and examine them because I know thats what you do and that is whats making you draw like those guys. Look at shit you don't normally look at. I used to be influenced by MAD! and as soon as he stopped drawing my style over a couple years started changing. I like his art but I moved past that in my tastes and it shows. Lately i'm trying to capture the energy and imagination shown in mangas and anime. I'm buying a lot of Guyver, Beserk, watching Vampire Hunter D, Tekken art etc...

Luckily, I have a Kinokuniya bookstore near my house so I'm going to stock up on a bunch of japanese art books. American style comic art doesnt do it for me anymore because a lot of it looks a like.

[Manji]

Just draw Juan. It's that simple. Art is a slow process...in the beginning. But over time with practice it will become a quicker process and once it becomes quicker and you are comfortable then your style will really shine through. Your style is already there, it is just marred by doubt and insecurity.
I always compare artistic style to handwriting. You start out struggling to make the letters correct, and you will do your best to mimic the teacher. But over time you develop a confidence and understanding of what you are doing, which of course ends up being your own very distinctive style of handwriting.

[Manji]

And yeah exposure the other artforms other than comics would be beneficial also. Check out John Singer Sargent, Andrew Wyeth, Frederic Remington and/or Norman Rockwell. All gods.

[Physicdesigns]

a personal style is something you develop over time, when you stop trying to follow someone elses ways. Its definately good to look toward new artforms, just to get a different take on something, sometimes methods are linked. dont just look at pencils look at colors, finish more pieces.

Fact is though you can be a good comicbook artist with no great eye catching style. The guy who does naruto isnt one of the cutting edge artists, but he made and draws stories that have sold millions and captures peoples interests. Just do your sequentials, draw experiment do studies from time to time. and you may become great.

[Juan2.0]

Thanks for the words of wisdom everyone. I'll keep pressing onward...

* back to the drawing board... *

[Justice41]

Yeah stay off the net man it rots the creativity.

[Garf]

Liefield???

No.

Turner's work is easy to get involved in, and is less technical than Pat Lee's but I prefer it more.

[smygba]

I went with Land because of the amount of tracing he does. Pat Lee seems dodgy too. I've heard he was paying people to put his name on the work. dunno how true that is, but if it was, I'd have gone with him.

the rest of them are quite talented or enthusiastic at least.

[Deth]

i cant believe theres even a doubt. 100% should go to rob as far as Im concerned.

[50%grey]

Can't believe Byrne made the list with rest of those asshats.

[saint manji]

Byrne is there because of his industry jackoffery.
Plain and simple.
His style may be dated but he's still artistically light years ahead of the other chumps lumped with him.
Byrne's also a chump.
Judy is a punk. :D

[antquinonez]

i voted for byrne. the guy must be a billionaire with that superman money. the industry is not worthy of his talents.

[FIG]

This is so easy but yeah, its Liefeld. Sucking artistically years after on top of missing lots of deadlines and unwillingness to grow and learn as an artist to me indicates someone who should never again be published. Plus half if not all of his characters are ripoffs or one-offs of existing characters which shows no creativity. At one time, I showed enough admiration for his work because to me it brought nostalgia and took me back to when I was a kid. I went as far as even wasting lots of time in his lame closed forums and on a huge pinup even though I could see that his characters were ripoffs. His characters to me have lots of possibilities for this reason because one can make them original with some redesigning and hard work. Alan Moore and Alex Ross did it with the Supreme redesign and stories. That said, Rob is his own worst enemy because his ability level equates to that of an entry level art student and his attitude sucks because of his arrogance. Arrogance because of no desire to learn and grow as an artist since he is content with his art and because he always defends his work with sales numbers. Sure, people may buy his work but that does not mean its any good. People are suckered into buying crap all the time. Plus, I heard from someone who worked close with him for a long while that Liefeld hates and belittles all his fans which indicates to me that he is a phony.

[ScottEwen]

hmm...Liefield, Lee (Jim), McFarlane and Larsen haven't changed their style since the 90s.

I could probably name you fifty artists whose style hasn't changed since the 90s. It was only eight years ago.

[spidey976]

Well personally there are a lot worse artists out there then these guys .... hence the "other" vote. However, I could have easily thrown a vote towards Liefeld ... just because he references other guys work with no credit given to others, and he has major attitude . Here is a quick reference thread ... and I have seen others. http://www.myconfinedspace.com/2007/10/30/liefeld-vs-the-world-of-art/copycat/

[FIG]

Scott, its not about changing ones style, its about evoloving the style for the better. This is what people are referring to. Looking at Erik and Todds work, I can see a progression especially with Eriks work. Hes incredibly fast and efficient with his linework. Todd doesn't have much work out there so hes probably not as good as we was back then.

[ScottEwen]

Right, I was making a joke.

[frazman]

I can't speak for the man, but I totally agree with him when it comes to the state of the industry. Bottom line, though, he clearly loves the characters, and I don't hate him for that.

However, Byrne SHOULD NOT be on this list. Whatever you want to say about his "attitude", when it comes to the creation of comics and his talent, the man is a professional 100% and should not be lumped in with any of the other guys on this list.

Byrne blows away everybody on this list. "Stuck in the 80s?" You mean stuck in a time when books came out of time and the focus was on the characters and not the creators? I'll take the 80s over now any day.

Again...there really should be an applause smiley. :)

I like Byrne's style. He is a great illustrator and visual story teller. His characters have weight and substance. Too many times people get hung up on the style of the moment and fail to appreciate the value of a craftsman who simply hits the mark everytime and on-time. Compared to Byrne, there is stuff being published right now that looks Saturday morning cartoonish.

[larq2525]

Pat Lee is nowhere near one of my favorite artists, but while I don't like his work I don't really have a beef with him. The same goes for Byrne.

Michael Turner is an okay artist, but in order for him to get better, people need to pull their noses out of his ass and force him to work a little harder for his keep. He knows how to draw one man and one woman and continues drawing those two figures over and over again with different clothing and slightly different facial features. I'd like to see Turner go on hiatus for a year and then come back to comics having taken some time to learn how to draw a bit better.

Greg Land should have been shamed out of the industry years ago. 'Nuff said.

Overall, I gotta go with Rob Liefeld. Yes, the man has a genuine enthusiasm for the medium, but if he likes it so much, why doesn't he work harder at being better at it?! The man has been drawing comics professionally for about 20 years and hasn't gotten any better than when he started! You'd think that after twenty years of drawing fists he'd have gradually learned how to make them not look disfigured. The same goes for general anatomy. I'll admit that I don't know the ol' "the knee bone's connected to the whatever" song myself, but after twenty years of drawing muscles, shouldn't he know where they go? For all-out lack of talent despite ample time to have gotten better, I vote Rob Liefeld even though he is always the easiest to pick on. For god's sake, man...TRY HARDER!

[hipsterburns]

Styles don't have to change if they're good.

So Liefeld get's my vote...

His art sucks, his attitude sucks, his writing sucks, his taste in clothing sucks.

He is an unpleasant man completely lacking in originality and talent who consistently steals from other professionals both artistically and, apparently, financially. Dirtbag.

[smygba]

Styles don't have to change if they're good.

So Liefeld get's my vote...

His art sucks, his attitude sucks, his writing sucks, his taste in clothing sucks.

He is an unpleasant man completely lacking in originality and talent who consistently steals from other professionals both artistically and, apparently, financially. Dirtbag.

He's a good creator though. Without him Marvel wouldn't have had a lot of its 90s X-Men like Deadpool and Cable. Not to mention all the stuff he did over at Image.

[Popninja]

He's a good creator though. Without him Marvel wouldn't have had a lot of its 90s X-Men like Deadpool and Cable. Not to mention all the stuff he did over at Image.

Marvel would have had characters like Cable and Deadpool; they just would have looked different. Liefeld is NOT a good creator. Bloodpool. Bloodwulf. Bloodstrike. He's a one-note creator. Every once in a while, though, someone else gets a hold of his characters and make them seem cool.

[Paulo_P]

Byrne blows away everybody on this list. "Stuck in the 80s?" You mean stuck in a time when books came out of time and the focus was on the characters and not the creators? I'll take the 80s over now any day.

Well said, on all counts!

[Wild&Uncouth]

I know why Rob Liefeld's working. Same for Pat Lee.
I just don't have a CLUE as to how Land gets work.

[BIOHAZARD]

I'm not sure who those guys are but the guy who drew batman returns(when batman was an old man) the drawings sucked!But Micheal Turner shouldn't be on this list, he rocks!I got most of my drawing styles from him.

[Wolverine_nl]

Liefeld, man o man