Superman & Batman: Which of the two best represents America?

[Beastie]

So yeah, Superman & Batman: Which of the two best represents America?

- and please give your reasoning......

[NickRocks]

neither, really. superman is an alien and batman is a darkly colored guy who hides in shadows and doesnt wear the american colors.

[Mr.Hades]

I find this a really strange question that you have ask Beastie.

[Beastie]

neither, really. superman is an alien and batman is a darkly colored guy who hides in shadows and doesnt wear the american colors.

Yeah, but thats really only scratching the surface.

Both characters have grown to the size that they have now because the American audience loved them so much - and was able to identify with them so strongly.

In terms of Superman, those elements include his immigrant roots (US has strong immigrant history), the biblical links and suggestion at him being a Christ figure (US deeply religious), his use as a tool in wartime propaganda (as a promotor of US military might and supporter of troops), the way that his power levels and abilities within the world of superheroes relates directly with the power levels of the US on Earth (he is a 'hyperpower' amongst 'superpowered' allies) etc etc

Thats the kind of level that I'm pitching this at.

Its for my ever evolving dissertation which started off about Batman, changed round to being about Superman - and has now settled on distinguishing which of the two is the best representation of the American people.

So, with that in mind, does anyone have any more thoughts?

[NickRocks]

well to counter your point, superman really kind of embodies the world....so i guess more batman.

[Beastie]

Hmmm. Superman does, indeed, take it upon himself to protect the entire planet - but is that not a similar role to that played by the US?
After all, the US intervenes in countless global conflicts.

[Huerta]

Captain America.

[Beastie]

Captain America.

Yeah, you may have noticed that his name wasn't in the title of the dissertation?

He was too 'obvious' a character to bother with.

Batman and Superman both have traits and behaviours which make the decision more interesting (thereby ensuring that I can get 10, 000 words out of this question......)

[Huerta]

I was just joking. I'd have to say Supes. Bats is a little psycho.

[fatmancomics]

Interesting how you brought the two up when they both interpret the country just as it is. Superman represents the country's ideals. He has all these abilities and could, basicaly, rule the entire world as a tyrant if he chose to (like he did in Red Son) but instead chooses to police the world from threats that can only be handled by him. He takes action only when the need arises and usualy does it in a high profile way. He works in the daylight so he's always seen doing what he does. He's understanding, diplomatic, forgiving and benevolant. His actions have an effect on the entire world as well as the country. He's like the "war on terror" going on in Iraq.
Batman works in the shadows and has "questionable methods". He deals with crime that effects his city directly and the populace is ignorrant (for the most part) of his actions. They know that he's there and they enjoy the liberties that his secret war affords them but they are still ignorant of why they have those liberties. Batman's enemies are small time crooks and thugs while Supes' are huge and capable of destroying the whole world. But Batman's enemies can rise through the ranks and become bigtime criminals so he is like a pre-emptive strike. Batman is like the secret wars that America has waged on countries in Central America, the middle East (before the Iraqui wars) and Africa. Just like Batman getting rid of one crime boss only to have another one take over, those wars have gotten rid of one regime only to have another one take over.

[Beastie]

Great point.

I'm splitting the essay up into sections - so they can 'draw' on some aspects of their characters. This will fit nicely into one of the sections I've started to flesh out.

Thanks!

[Beastie]

I was just joking. I'd have to say Supes. Bats is a little psycho.


Yeah, that was one of the definite downsides that I was going to mention with Bats.

His loony side.

I was also going to point out that only a very small percentage of the US population could ever identify with Bruce Wayne - as a billionaire playboy figure.

Clark is much easier to relate to.

Any more thoughts on the Clark / Bruce links?

[Prevaricator]

I was also going to point out that only a very small percentage of the US population could ever identify with Bruce Wayne - as a billionaire playboy figure.

True, but even less can identify with a person who can fly, has never felt pain, gotten sick, and can lift buildings without breaking a sweat. All of which is a lot bigger part of how most people see Superman, than wealth is in how most people see Batman.


I think that in terms of who most Americans will identify with Batman wins out because Superman is just so alien a concept by comparison. Americans will identify with Batman not in spite of his flaws and slight mental instability, but because of it. We are all flawed, and even if our flaws our different than Batman's, this very basic similarity allows us to connect to the character in a way that we never can with Superman.


However, your original question was who represents America and not who America identifies most with. That one is much tougher for me to decide on. Because to decide that you have to decide what exactly America is. Is it defined by the actions of the nation as a world power? Is it defined by the ideal upon which it is based? Is it defined by the desires of it's people? Is it simply a descriptor for the land encapsulated by United States borders? I don't know the answer, and I don't believe that there truly is one since definitions of this sort are more a matter of opinion than of fact, and since my answer varies depending upon which of these definitions you give to the word "America" I suppose I will have to say both represent it equally well, depending upon your point of view.

In other words, I haven't got a clue.

[Beastie]

In other words, I haven't got a clue.

:D ten characters

[WillTurner]

Superman represents the immigrant ideal of America- the ability to reinvent yourself and transcend your origins to "be somebody" (note how this also mirrors The Great Gatsby).

In keeping with the Great Gatsby parallel, Batman is the dark side of this, the violent side that won peace by war. He is the side that controls by fear and turns it back on those who use it.

Both have ideals but both in very different execution. I'd say Batman at the moment is closer to contemporary America (trying to heal old wounds. Sadly this makes us Robin)

[Singles]

I think Superman represents America a lot more due to Batman's comparative lack of concern for the world outside of Gotham. As many Justice League adventures he's been involved in, Gotham has always been the highest priority to him. Considering the second half of the twentieth century up to today has been one long story of America defending its interests in other lands, this definately puts America at odds with Batman's values. Up until World War II, however, America was probably a lot more like Batman: Aiding in worldwide efforts through production without getting wholly involved in the conflict. (until Pearl Harbor, of course)

[fatmancomics]

Well, most Americans don't give a crap about anything happening outside of the United States. The fact that they only consider the United States America shows how much they don't care. So if you take THAT into consideration, Batman represents at least the people of the country more.

[Beastie]

Yeah, theres a definite conflict between the US as a superpower nation and the US as a people.

[WillTurner]

Well like most nations there's a gap between ideal and reality. Those who associate England with gentility would be shocked to see the recent goings on Celebrity Big Brother

[Bruce Lee]

Neither of these characters truly represent America, but they both share some traditional American values and similarities, I suppose. The belief in the idea that one man can make a difference, for instance. Both Superman and Batman believe in justice, hope, and so forth, and I think most of America believes in those things.

Superman, though born on Krypton, grew up in Kansas. Yet, he often has been depicted as feeling alone--in his unique burden, at least. He is an island onto himself at times with no one to truly understand his situation and unique place in the world. His burden is often very heavy, because so many people depend on him daily. I think America sometimes sees itself this way, and certainly is seen this way by many other countries around the world. America is unique in it's isolation, and has been blessed with many amazing natural resources (not unlike Superman being blessed with his amazing powers). The America I know and love is champion to those oppressed and need help. Superman is like that.

There is another side of America too. A side of America that is in pain. The tragedy of 911 was a great loss for us, and there is a part of us that screams out for revenge and/or for justice (sometimes, it's very difficult to know how these terms differ). Batman lost his parents in a tragedy, and has dedicated his life to keeping such a tragedy from happening to someone else. In this way, Batman represents America--an America that is forever wounded and scarred by a horrible event--but an America dedicated towards making the world a safer place.

Hopefully, these two heroes--two of the oldest superheroes in comics--represent the best parts of America, but I don't think looking at either of them is an accurate dipstick for measuring 100% what America is about. We are not superheroes--we are human beings like the rest of the world. Crime, greed, cowardous, and other human fallacy is not foreign to us. We make mistakes just like the rest of the world. We are very much human beings. We don't pretend to have a Utopia or to have all the answers--we do not. Superman saves the day every day. We can not do that. We can only try to do our best given any situation.

America is forever defining itself. Our daily actions played out on the world stage will continue to shape what we stand for here at home. Social, moral and political conflicts are inevitable, and the landscapes will change back and forth over time. Who we are today will not be who we are tomorrow. However, it's my hope that we continue on the pathway towards the higher values our Founding Fathers wished for us.

Loston

[CWmax]

I hope your done with your little soliloqy Loston....Cause here's the answer....

BATMAN - 'Cause he KICKS ASS.


USA USA USA WHOOP WHOOPP!!!


;)

CW

[WillTurner]

If you actually read what Loston wrote it's a very balanced look at a complex issue and he certainly wasn't slagging off his country.

I love Britain, but I'd be lying if I said we had a flawless record, now or ever! :D

[Beastie]

My dissertation is now finished and handed in.

Thank you all for your opinions and help.

:)

[shoryukenmaster]

Is there any way I could get a copy of it? I'm interested in reading it.

[Beastie]

Is there any way I could get a copy of it? I'm interested in reading it.

Hmmm.

Whilst I enjoy writiing 'creatively' - my essay writing is crap with a capital 'C'.

I'm really quite ashamed of how bad it is.

We were given 7 months to write it - but I kept putting it off and putting it off -- and ended up doing it in the last 2 weeks.

It sucks.

Maybe, when I get my grade back -- I'll email it to you. :)

[shoryukenmaster]

haha...fair enough.

[Durakken]

>.> even though your dissertation is done I'm gonna say what i think anyways.

Neither Superman nor Batman represents America, but rather together they are what makes up America on a large scale. You can not have one without the other. This is why they are looked at as both great friend but great enemies to each other. While Superman has great power he can be broken by Batman. It's not because Batman is smarter either, he technically isn't. Batman is inferior to Superman in every way save for 2, wealth and wisdom. Superman often makes the less wise decision. They really are two sides of the same coin..Their cities are even considered twin cities.

Or perhaps you can look at it like it was stated in Smallville, It's not the man with power that is truly the hero, but the man who stands against and keeps the man in power in check that is really the hero.

[WillTurner]

>.> even though your dissertation is done I'm gonna say what i think anyways.

Neither Superman nor Batman represents America, but rather together they are what makes up America on a large scale. You can not have one without the other. This is why they are looked at as both great friend but great enemies to each other. While Superman has great power he can be broken by Batman. It's not because Batman is smarter either, he technically isn't. Batman is inferior to Superman in every way save for 2, wealth and wisdom. Superman often makes the less wise decision. They really are two sides of the same coin..Their cities are even considered twin cities.

Or perhaps you can look at it like it was stated in Smallville, It's not the man with power that is truly the hero, but the man who stands against and keeps the man in power in check that is really the hero.



It also depends how you define power- both are the most powerful symbols in the world, yet both represent very different values.

It's like old testament versus new testament- Superman represents a kind of benign power, the use of power for peace, to nullify evil.

Batman on the other hand is the fire and brimstone, the embodiment of vengeance. Batman's intellegence is essentially a weapon, the ability to read and adapt. And it's always interesting how brains are often depicted as more frightening than brawn.

[Durakken]

The thing is that both of them have things that they have because without them they'd turn out differently and these things are what also separates them from the common more so than their vigilantism or powers.

Superman has no idea what his morals truly mean because he has never really had to deal with them in a practical sense. He's a lot like the well known philosophers where they state something, but it's only because they never actually have to face it. If superman goes and kills someone he doesn't have to face the consequences. He can't die. Even when he was younger and teased (as is commonly thought...) or bullied and had to hold back, while that did help us to connect in some ways you have to realize that in the minds of the nerd who is getting bullied he either can't fight back, or will have to face some sort of penal punishment, but Clark, even if he was spanked or something couldn't feel it. If they took away food for a night he could just take it without them knowing or with them knowing and nothing could stop him. He simply was taught right and wrong but has no true basis for them.

Batman has his wealth (billionaire) which to us seems incredible, but it's really nothing more than a plot device to get him his gadgets, but even still he's a lot like Superman in the aspect that he's never had to worry about money which is something that we worry about. He's never had to worry where his next batarang is going to come from or anything like that. He most likely also doesn't have to worry about being found out in most cases because he's a billionaire. He could just buy his way out of being found out if he really wanted to.

I'd love to see a comic that takes these particular things to build the character...

Clark growing up with druggy parents or in the adoption agency passed around home to home and have him face connections with people more so than he does now. Use his one major weakness which is his emotions and have him make questionable decisions like whether or not to take without paying.

Bruce as a street urchin, growing up in downtown gotham without money. Have him throw a batarang and then scurry after it to pick it up and reuse it. Make him wear shabbier costumes and truly worry about being found out.


But if you look at it Superman being the global power of america and batman being more the common man of america...currently i'd have to say that superman represents america more right now, but that's only because the common person is mainly being beaten down and being taken advantage of. It'd be like superman calling up batman every time he foiled a crime and telling him how bad he is for doing such a thing while at the same time breaking lex's bones. THat's pretty muchg how america is right now ^.^

[WillTurner]

Have you seen Citizen Kane? Extreme wealth isolates almost as much as extreme poverty. In a sense, nobody can really relate to him. Alfred is his closest shot at a father figure and even then it's not adequate.

If anything, if most people found out they'd be on the phone to Max Clifford and he'd be finished in minutes

[JimLeeforGod]

I would've just copied lostons post
and turned that in to be graded :D
I mean Damn!
that was deep.....
like an abyss......
that was abysic-deep! :D

[Durakken]

Have you seen Citizen Kane? Extreme wealth isolates almost as much as extreme poverty. In a sense, nobody can really relate to him. Alfred is his closest shot at a father figure and even then it's not adequate.

If anything, if most people found out they'd be on the phone to Max Clifford and he'd be finished in minutes

which is exactly why that isn't what i was talking about...i was talking about the fact he really doesn't have to worry about "gear" I mean really who would really go out in a non-bullet proof suit now adays. Financial worry is more connecting than being rich ^.^

Who's Max Clifford? and I really doubt that...he'd be more than likely blackmailed or something..they'd want money. Or they'd just ignore it for them most part if they as they'd see him doing good things and might want that protection...of course there is the possibility that an enemy finds out, but there seems to be some sort of code of secrecy with super powered beings where they don't tell anything to anyone...

[slayerfan66666]

niether. CAPTAIN AMERICA. do i need to say more?

[Wade8813]

Captain America is an interesting combination of Batman and Superman. His fighting style and ability are very much like Batman. He's better than humanly possible, but still closer to Batman's ability level. But his ideology and outlook are more similar to Superman, Steve living in an idealized America that doesn't exist any more, and Clark growing up in middle of nowhere, Kansas.


Superman has no idea what his morals truly mean because he has never really had to deal with them in a practical sense. He's a lot like the well known philosophers where they state something, but it's only because they never actually have to face it. If superman goes and kills someone he doesn't have to face the consequences. He can't die. Even when he was younger and teased (as is commonly thought...) or bullied and had to hold back, while that did help us to connect in some ways you have to realize that in the minds of the nerd who is getting bullied he either can't fight back, or will have to face some sort of penal punishment, but Clark, even if he was spanked or something couldn't feel it. If they took away food for a night he could just take it without them knowing or with them knowing and nothing could stop him. He simply was taught right and wrong but has no true basis for them. On the other hand, you could argue that Superman's morals are more real. When a 6 year old obeys his parents because he doesn't want to be spanked, he usually doesn't do it out of a sense of morality - he does it out of a fear of being punished. It's not moral to want to avoid punishment. A real test of morality is what someone does when there's no chance of being punished.

[Wild&Uncouth]

Supes. He wears red and blue,and he's a white guy.
Batman needs more colors.