So You Want To Give Up?

[Stark Raving]

I saw this on Neil Gaiman's blog today.
It pertains to writing, but I think it can be applied to anything.


Dear Mr. Gaiman,

I read your advice to the 23 year old writer ('tricia), about how to deal with feeling like a crap writer when you're so young. But what do you do when you're 30? I've written a novel that only my friends want to read (bear in mind, one of those friends is a book editor at a major US paper), but no agent or publisher wants to touch?

What does one do when they can't get a break? I want to write, but no paper will hire me to write. Right now I'm an editor at a website, but I'd barely call it editing. I write screenplays and am working on other prose projects, but I guess what I'm getting at is, should there be a point when one must say "enough is enough. This isn't going anywhere. It's time to stop before this starts to hurt more than I can bear"?

I bear responsibility for my actions as a writer, I know, and I've squandered many chances. I am at a low point, and I'm not sure that words of encouragement will mean anything to me at this point. They don't sound sincere. Overnight success takes years to happen, and I haven't been able to get that groundwork done. Is it worth my time to continue this fool's mission?

Sincerely,
Christopher

You can give up if you like. It's okay. The world won't end. I'm not really sure what being 30 has to do with it, though. Some of my favourite writers barely started being published until they were in their forties.

Sometimes it's a good thing that no-one wants to publish your first novel. I'm really glad nobody wanted to publish mine. There are an awful lot of publishers and agents out there, and I suspect if I'd sent my first novel to more than two publishers someone eventually would have published it. (This would not have been a good thing, but persistence would probably have paid off.)

Writing short stories is often a very good way to learn. And the thrill of seeing a short story in print can keep you going for a while -- and there are certainly paying short story markets out there.

But you can give up, too, if it makes you feel better.

The lady on the plane next to me yesterday explained, when I told her I was a writer, that as a former English Major she had had dreams of being a major novelist, but she was making a living instead, and she hoped to one day have enough free time to write.

And I remembered Gene Wolfe getting up at 5.00 am every day and writing two pages before going in to work, and I told her that if she wanted to be a writer she ought to write. ("It's like most jobs," I told. "It's amazing how much of it just consists of showing up." But she didn't believe me.)

[foxmerquise8]

This is a good pick me up. I was in blah mode concerning writing and life in general. It feels like I'm banging my head against the wall. I'm having a hard time finding people to even read what I write, yet alone collaborators to work with.

I'm only 18 and I'm frustrated, I can't imagine it at 30. In reality though, many (probably even most) writers don't get in until later on in life. O.Henry didn't start until he was 40, he was in jail for three years before that. I believe Joseph Conrad served as a sailor for about 20 years before he started writing.

Then there is Steven King who wrote most of his life, but didn't find success until later on, and that's after the nail that he kept his rejection notes on fell off because of the wait.

This knowledge doesn't make it any easier though. I made a goal to get published by Image by 20 and Tokyo Pop by 21, that seems a little brash now, but I like to aim high and keep the chamber filled with multiple shots.

[Justice41]

Make your own way. Remember that old saying about building a better mouse trap and they will beat a path to your door.
If you believe in and love what you're doing even after failures you'll eventually achieve that goal. Just need that sticktoitetness.

[Inkthinker]

I take some solace in knowing that plenty of really awesome artists and writers didn't really break out until they were much older than myself.

The weight of not KNOWING, the constant stress of wondering if you're just wasting your time even TRYING, is part of any path to success, espescially one that is largely travelled alone (as it is so often for artists).

If you can't carry that weight, then don't play.

In the end, I think, for most of us who have any measure of success in this business of drawing pictures for people, there's never really a question of doing anything else. Drawing is what I DO, it's what I'd do even if I couldn't make a living at it. I find it hard to believe that if it's something you do every day, I mean really try and draw something good, even if it's just a page of doodles or even just ONE doodle on a napkin, every day... then you DO it. You've been doing it, and you'll keep it up.

And you study, and practice, and improve until you reach a level where you can be rewarded for it both personally and financially. It's not easy, but if you get into art because you think it's an easy way to make a living, then you need to stop now, anyway.

[red7ine]

At the Kubert school, one kid had a rather traumatic experience with Neal Adams at a convention, who told them that if they were not at a professional level by the age of 17, they would never realistically EVER be at a pro level. This really screwed the guy's confidence for a few weeks.

and before any diehard Neal Adams fans take umbrage, it's just a second-hand story that I heard directly from the kid 2 days after the con. Not beating the man up or anything.

[Justice41]

I say take up golf. It will teach you the same lessons you'll need to persevere. It's a one man/woman sport and only with practice and self discipline will you ever enjoy the game. Sounds like being an artist to me.

[sdowner]

Much as I love Neal's work, that's probably bull.
+this thread should be stickied as The Inspiration Thread. :)

[Juan2.0]

It's not easy, but if you get into art because you think it's an easy way to make a living, then you need to stop now, anyway. Damn bro...why didn't you tell me this like 10 years ago... :( :D ;)

[red7ine]

Much as I love Neal's work, that's probably bull.
+this thread should be stickied as The Inspiration Thread. :)

oh, I totally agree. I think it's rather prickish of him to have said that to somebody who was actively pursuing their dream.

[Juan2.0]

oh, I totally agree. I think it's rather prickish of him to have said that to somebody who was actively pursuing their dream. Sounds like he didn't like the kid for whatever reason...when I was 17 all I thought about was chasing tits and ass...not sitting at a table drawing for 12 hours a day. :)

[Justice41]

Probably a lie to cover up his bad review. A lot of stories floating around are just that, stories, half truths and misreading by parties not directly involved. You know how rumors spread.

[red7ine]

You know how rumors spread.


... by boat?


and the kid didn't have a 'review' or portfolio critique or anything else. He was just talking to the man, told him where he was going to school, at which point he got a big dose or reality check. So it's not a lie, you negative ninny. It wasn't to 'get back' at Adams for any reason. He didn't know the guy long enough to develop a dislike for him. It was just a professional making a glib remark, not realizing the impact of what he was saying on the person he was talking to.

And as our lord Tom has said, "Don't be glib, Matt. You're being glib."

[DevonW]

I say take up golf. It will teach you the same lessons you'll need to persevere. It's a one man/woman sport and only with practice and self discipline will you ever enjoy the game. Sounds like being an artist to me.

Damn you Justice.


I agree.

As much as I hate to say it, Justice gave some decent advice here. Golf has everything in it that you need to have to succeed as an artist, writer, or other creative talent. There's the act of picking your target (where to hit the ball), picking the right tools (literally and metaphorically, in the case of artists), the set up and swing............ and most important of all: The follow through.

So, this is officially filed under "not tripe."

[Justice41]

... by boat?


and the kid didn't have a 'review' or portfolio critique or anything else. He was just talking to the man, told him where he was going to school, at which point he got a big dose or reality check. So it's not a lie, you negative ninny. It wasn't to 'get back' at Adams for any reason. He didn't know the guy long enough to develop a dislike for him. It was just a professional making a glib remark, not realizing the impact of what he was saying on the person he was talking to.

And as our lord Tom has said, "Don't be glib, Matt. You're being glib."
You're the one who put the story out there man, now you want to take a side after saying it was second hand. HUH!

[Justice41]

Damn you Justice.


I agree.

As much as I hate to say it, Justice gave some decent advice here. Golf has everything in it that you need to have to succeed as an artist, writer, or other creative talent. There's the act of picking your target (where to hit the ball), picking the right tools (literally and metaphorically, in the case of artists), the set up and swing............ and most important of all: The follow through.

So, this is officially filed under "not tripe."
Damn You back and I love golf.:D

[red7ine]

You're the one who put the story out there man, now you want to take a side after saying it was second hand. HUH!


I guess I don't see the issue with the insight and complexity that you do... I was just relating a story that I thought was on topic with the original post: a professional's opinion on whether or not somebody should give up on their dream. I even put the little disclaimer at the bottom saying I'm not picking sides, just relaying a little slice-o-life in a wannabe-artist's life.

:rolleyes:

[smygba]

I do wonder if the companies do look to have a cut off point. Virtually all industries would rather have talented youth that potentially will only get better then someone who's old and only just become good enough.

[Justice41]

Tell that to Danny Aiello(sp).

[Inkthinker]

I do wonder if the companies do look to have a cut off point. Virtually all industries would rather have talented youth that potentially will only get better then someone who's old and only just become good enough.

That's... that's just kinda silly.

Publishing contracts generally last a period of a few years, at most. It's irrelevant to the publisher whether you're 25 or 45, with the exception that a 45-year-old artist probably has a better sense of responsibility towards deadlines, and more experience with the various quirks of industry work.

Given that most editor and publishers are in their 30s and 40's, I expect that they'd sometimes RATHER deal with people their own age than the "kids" out there.

But most of the time, espescially now, we rarely know each other's ages ANYWAY. If any of you know my age, it's likely because you've known me now for a few years, or you remember me bemoaning a milestone a few months ago.

There's no cutoff point or time limit... just work until you get work.

[misfitX]

great advice.

I always try to think of Mark Twain's saying, (paraphrasing here)"Talent is a dime a dozen, it's hard work that pays off." Or something like that.
There's another saying I read (either in a comic or in Kerouac's On The Road, I gotta stop reading so much shit at once...)Any schmuck in line at the DMV has talent, just ask him.

It always boil down to just doing it. That's where the glory lies.

[smygba]

That's... that's just kinda silly.

Publishing contracts generally last a period of a few years, at most. It's irrelevant to the publisher whether you're 25 or 45, with the exception that a 45-year-old artist probably has a better sense of responsibility towards deadlines, and more experience with the various quirks of industry work.

Given that most editor and publishers are in their 30s and 40's, I expect that they'd sometimes RATHER deal with people their own age than the "kids" out there.

But most of the time, espescially now, we rarely know each other's ages ANYWAY. If any of you know my age, it's likely because you've known me now for a few years, or you remember me bemoaning a milestone a few months ago.

There's no cutoff point or time limit... just work until you get work.
It might be different in this industry then, but given the business strcutures of other enviroments, and how they work, it does make me wonder. Even with your reassurances, I hold a degree of skepticism.

As for talent and getting a job. I also hold that in doubt too. You only need so much talent, but without a degree of access, it's nothing.

[misfitX]

smygba, i can see where you're getting that idea. there are certain industries that strive for a younger constituents, but on the whole it's more of a media perception. the young ones get more press time since they look better on TV or in the press or something. or look at our prodigy, he's so young, he shouldn't be this good!

i guess by degree of access you me networking. that's all about people skills and having learned the playground rules effectively.

[smygba]

Fair Enuff. I'll keep that logic in mind for future.

And yes I meant that to some extent.

[Stark Raving]

I've previously used these two quotes as sigs. I think they sum up my feelings on the subject.



Talent is cheaper than table salt. What separates the talented individual from the successful one is a lot of hard work.
Stephen King


Nothing in the world can take the place of Persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'Press On' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.
Calvin Coolidge


That Coolidge quote is probably my all-time favorite. I have it tacked up beside my monitor.


And one thing about the people who say "I'm going to do it as soon as I find the time". They never will. You don't wait for the right time. You just do it.
Because in the end, it all boils down to one thing: It's either done, or it's not.

[Justice41]

Yoda said it best Do or not do There is no try.
http://www.myclassiclyrics.com/artist_biographies/yoda_biography_2.jpg

[G-man_2000]

Damn you Justice.


I agree.

As much as I hate to say it, Justice gave some decent advice here. Golf has everything in it that you need to have to succeed as an artist, writer, or other creative talent. There's the act of picking your target (where to hit the ball), picking the right tools (literally and metaphorically, in the case of artists), the set up and swing............ and most important of all: The follow through.

So, this is officially filed under "not tripe."

Let me see how this goes, I do this in online RTS and FPS team games all the time.


Scouting and finding a soft target.



Creating and plan and making preparations for that action.



Execution, strike fast, strike hard, but most of all strike accuracy.



Observe your action and take note on your successes and failures.



Use the notes you took and plan accordingly for a follow up attack, repeat the process.

[Justice41]

It's a one person deal being an struggling artist. Like in Golf there are others trying to win, but they themselves can't beat you, only you can defeat yourself. It's only a team effort once you have gotten to whatever goal it is you seek. The initial goal is to become a pro. From there on it's a different type of struggle. It becomes more of a Basketball type team action where one can do a lot but can't do it all.
Golf gets you there, Basketball carries you forward and maybe golf will take you the rest of the way if you choose. If the Basketball team works, the option to play golf will be infinitely easier.

[Finnegan]

i got a motto

"don't give up"

so far, it's suited me rather well


-Bob

[Inkthinker]

i got a motto

"don't give up"

so far, it's suited me rather well


-Bob


Well said.

[G-man_2000]

It's a one person deal being an struggling artist. Like in Golf there are others trying to win, but they themselves can't beat you, only you can defeat yourself. It's only a team effort once you have gotten to whatever goal it is you seek. The initial goal is to become a pro. From there on it's a different type of struggle. It becomes more of a Basketball type team action where one can do a lot but can't do it all.
Golf gets you there, Basketball carries you forward and maybe golf will take you the rest of the way if you choose. If the Basketball team works, the option to play golf will be infinitely easier.

I see. So keep playing long enough until you get better and become one of the top players. Then hopefully a scout will pick you up?

[benrosa]

" One step a Day, each day a Success " - Peter Jackson.
:)

[Justice41]

A little whoring and pimping can't hurt. A closed mouth never gets fed.®©AR Cover

[FIG]

Whats giving up? Not in my vocabulary

[Blackroot]

I cant help but wonder what anyone here is doing in the first place. Is to say, since there are no guarentees in life, and everyone knows it, why oh why even bother in the first place? If your initial reason to get into comics was to "make it" then I hope you do, I tend to think all of us do what we do as more of a compulsion, a nervous tick of sorts. If I'm not creating my work, i feel less complete. It has nothing to do with "making it" and it never will. A cynical Professor once told me that because I diddnt care if my work would ever be seen he called it "Mental Masturbation"...considering what kind of person he was, I'm fine with his assesment of my character.

Perhaps it would be nice to make a nice pile of cash from my work, and I hope to in the future, but I imagine I will do it on my own, not by being "discovered" by Marvel or DC (to name the 2 bigguns)

I love what I do, thats why I do it. Ill draw if all i have is a twig and a sandy beach as a canvas, Ill do it if I have the state of the art Wacom, it's not about anything other than doing.

At least thats how I see it.

[Justice41]

Yeah but comics aint like fine art, it's commercial art, it's meant to be seen and consumed. Doing it because you just want to won't cut it, there must be a goal or it is mental nocturnal emissions.
I paint, I designed and had tattoos done on me and those I consider for me, because outside of people who see the art it's never to be seen by the public. Comics is a commercial medium. It's all about honing the craft and putting it out their for testing of those honing skills. You may have chinks and chips exposed in that blade but that can be worked on. If you never try you'll never know. Like I said, "A closed mouth never gets fed."®©AR Cover.

[misfitX]

Comics are slowly moving into the realm of fine art. But then it's mostly those pseudo-underground comics what subject matter is usually of the emo-"oh-whoa-is-me" variety. They're getting there, but it's slow and it's more akin to the novelty of a harlequin romance, than the importance of a Hemingway.

Also, there's plenty of modern art that borrows and steals from comics art. There's a fellow, whose name escapes me and I can't find the magazine he's featured int at the moment, who takes abstract bits from the nineties "extreme" movement (stuff mostly characterized by the Image comics at the time) and blends them into a captivating and engaging peice. He's been featured in a few gallerys.

[Chrysander]

Yoda said it best Do or not do There is no try.
http://www.myclassiclyrics.com/artist_biographies/yoda_biography_2.jpg
Amen!

Who said you can't learn anything from a Muppet!? :D

One of my favorite quotes:


"Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

[Archer]

There is a pretty good, and inspiring, Neil Adams interview here:

http://www.comicfoundry.com/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=100