Mark Millar Ultimates review/thoughts

[JPJ]

I finally got my long awaited Ultimates trades in. This is the first two that came out and the recent Gods and Monsters. I'm reading through this and while it looks great, the action is fantastic, I just...I don't get it anymore or want to.

My main peeve is Mark Millar's writing in this. Case in point where he portrays the military and the government. It's obvious how much he actually dislikes the whole Bush admin and he portrays all of the military poorly. Example: The soldiers who toss Banner out of the helicopter and the soldiers pushing the kid to the ground. As a US soldier the last scene that I described really got to me to the point where I wanted to throw the book out. Gods and Monsters is just a book that is not only inferior to the previous two, but the whole club scene was another thing that bothered me. "The thief in chief!", spitting on soldiers.

I understand a writer likes to put his little insights and thoughts into his books and what not but I believe Mark Millar has started getting a little over the top. I like to read comics to be entertained and not to see the O'Reilly Factor or I Hate the Current Gov etc


On the other note, I mentioned this in the Civil War thread, his characters are all straight out pricks. There's always a character who plans on seducing another character, enough sexual references in there to fill up Penthouse, and every other word of dialogue is in bold for dramatic effect. (That's very nitpicky but it drives me insane.)

Anyways...sorry for the rant but I had a few minutes to kill at work and I haven't had my coffee.

[DevonW]

You think you're mad now?

Wait until you get caught up to the current issue.

I'm giving him one more issue to redeem himself before I write him off.

[plasticfangs]

All I know is, that book is going to REALLy stink, once the new writer and artist take over...:mad:

[Huerta]

I dont know why people get anal over Millers use of the American Government. I wouldnt get pissed if Miller used Mexican soldiers instead of the Americans. HE can blow up L.A. for all I care, as long as the story is fun.

[DevonW]

I dont know why people get anal over Millers use of the American Government. I wouldnt get pissed if Miller used Mexican soldiers instead of the Americans. HE can blow up L.A. for all I care, as long as the story is fun.

I wouldn't classify every negative response as "getting anal."

I have no problem with Millar's use of the U.S. government in Civil War (at least, not yet). I do have an issue with his portrayal of the U.S. government in Ultimates 2.

Were it not for the fact that many people believe some of what is being suggested in the comic, I probably would draw less issue with it. However, the fact that I STILL hear inane prattle about our "current Ceasar" and "stealing the vote" makes me less inclined to accept it when a writer uses a comic as a soap box for his own political views.

I understand that politics are going to crop up in comics. They always have. But much like my view on going to live concerts, I don't want the entertainment to be tainted by personal politics, especially when the medium influences people who are (and let's be honest) fairly ignorant to the facts of the matter and are likely to believe whatever is most prominently shouted.

So, I'm not getting anal over it. Most people aren't getting anal over it. But as with anything else, everyone will have an opinion and everyone will choose to voice it at some point.

Besides, if Millar were to portray the Mexican army, it probably wouldn't be in the same kind of negative light as he portrays the United States. Just a guess, based on his track record.

And yet I still admit he's a hell of a talented writer.

[Huerta]

I understand that politics are going to crop up in comics. They always have. But much like my view on going to live concerts, I don't want the entertainment to be tainted by personal politics, especially when the medium influences people who are (and let's be honest) fairly ignorant to the facts of the matter and are likely to believe whatever is most prominently shouted.


Thats all u had to say. Got ya.

[plasticfangs]

I wouldn't classify every negative response as "getting anal."

I have no problem with Millar's use of the U.S. government in Civil War (at least, not yet). I do have an issue with his portrayal of the U.S. government in Ultimates 2.

Were it not for the fact that many people believe some of what is being suggested in the comic, I probably would draw less issue with it. However, the fact that I STILL hear inane prattle about our "current Ceasar" and "stealing the vote" makes me less inclined to accept it when a writer uses a comic as a soap box for his own political views.

I understand that politics are going to crop up in comics. They always have. But much like my view on going to live concerts, I don't want the entertainment to be tainted by personal politics, especially when the medium influences people who are (and let's be honest) fairly ignorant to the facts of the matter and are likely to believe whatever is most prominently shouted.

So, I'm not getting anal over it. Most people aren't getting anal over it. But as with anything else, everyone will have an opinion and everyone will choose to voice it at some point.

Besides, if Millar were to portray the Mexican army, it probably wouldn't be in the same kind of negative light as he portrays the United States. Just a guess, based on his track record.

And yet I still admit he's a hell of a talented writer.


Not to spurn on a debate, but I have to strongly disagree with you, on several points.

First off - I think it's not only okay, but more to the point, an artist's duty, to speak their mind, if they feel passionately abotu soemthing. It's part of what being an artist means; to express yourself, to speak your mind...even if your fans might not always agree with you.

I don't think of rock music or comic books to be just enterainment. I think of them as valid forms of art. And just like any artform, there should be something greater at work than just mindless entertainment.

There have been several occassions where I've stopped being able to fully appreciate a particular artist, because I discovered I did not agree with their viewpoints. And to a certain extent, supporting someone whose political views I strongly disagree with is not something I can take lightly. But at the same time, I respect anyone's right to stand behind what they believe, and I'm also thankful to be informed enough to make the decision to support, ignore, or discontinue support in such a case.

Also - I feel as though I might happen to agree with Millar on some, or many, of his political views. But I am in no way ignorant of the facts, in my own opinion. ( I am aware that you weren't speaking to me, personally, I just thought i should mention it).

I would say that if comic books are your only source for information on what's going on in the world, then YES, you are going to be fairly ignorant of the real facts, regardless of what partisan line you're being fed (which I would imagine you would agree with). But hopefully, any viewpoint is enough to get someone interested in finding out the truth for themselves.

Besides - I don't see Millar as being so strictly Anti-Milirary. One of the characters he seems to get the most enjoyment wiritng is Captain America, who is the Posterboy for Pro-Military Conservatism. And the Captain continues to be the focal point of the comic.

[DJ Kenobi]

Hey all. Good conversation going on, but I just wanted to jump in and remind everybody that Comics Analysis is just that, for the analysis of comics. Also, that politics are off limits in PJ. So far everyone is being polite and keeping the conversation confined to the book or to art of storytelling, etc. so I won't be shutting this thread down. But right about now is usually when the thread turns away from civil conversation about comics to personal politics and name calling so I just wanted to toss in a reminder that we all play nice.

Thanks,

DJ

[DevonW]

Hey DJ. Thanks for the reminder.

I think that politics is an important part of this discussion, because it features so heavily in the storylines in question. However, I agree that the minute this stops being civil, it needs to be stomped out.

I challenge anyone out there to honestly claim that there is not a large number of people whose opinions and knowledge of "the facts" come from sources such as comic books, Jay Leno and The Daily Show. Generally, these are the people whose voices are heard the loudest.

Millar is a great writer. I respect his talent, and enjoy his work. I just see him perched on a slippery slope, and that is the source of my concern. He hasn't crossed the line with me....yet.... but he's dancing on it.

An artist who creates art independantly is free to express whatever he wants. That's why there are independant comics and comics created on a payroll.

I don't tend to take very well to anti-Americanism, and the current Ultimates story is leaning that way. I suspect, due to a press conference he took part in, that he MIGHT be ready to snap the story back away from where it seems to be going. But if he doesn't, I will do what every consumer SHOULD do when faced with such a situation: I will stop buying the book.

Until then, I'm going to express my opinions and concerns, while still complimenting him for the quality of his work, regardless of content and sentiment.

And, honestly, I think this is one of the better analysis discussions I've seen on here. We're actually ANALYZING it, rather than just blabbing inane prattle.

[Ugga Bugga]

storytelling is itself a policital endeavor. Through the story, the storyteller makes statements about the state of affairs. A good storyteller will influence the audience to approach a problem in a certain way, and that in essense is politics.

No one wants to be preached to, and the best stories are the one's that don't preach, but rather make statments in subtle ways.

But make no mistake about it, storytelling is a form of political expression.

[DevonW]

I think Ugga did a pretty good job of bringing the two sides of this argument together coherently.

My problem, really, is that I often feel as though I'm being "preached to." So often I see anti-American sentiment being portrayed in a "this is the way it is" mode, and that has created a certain distrust that I now have for such things.

Drawing from Ugga's clarity, I would have to say my problem is not with the presence of political beliefs, but the idea that a medium I love is being turned into a bully pulpit from which certain ideals I do NOT hold to are being preached.

For example, images of U.S. soldiers committing outright abuse on children, when there are already enough people shouting "baby killer!" half the places I go. I've seen people SPIT on soldiers, and reading that in a comic makes me realize that our media influences that sort of behavior.

I still can't figure out of Thor's reaction to that was Millar's way of covering his butt or if he really feels that sort of behavior is inappropriate.

So, to tie this off neatly, I agree with Ugga's conclusion about the matter. My problems come from the preaching, not from the politics themselves. I'd feel the same if I saw overt "preaching" about politics that I DO agree with.

[Marc Lewis]

JPJ, I have a suggestion for you. Why not go to Millarworld.tv and express your dislike to Mark virtually? You may even get him to respond and you can ask him why, etc.

[JPJ]

While I wish I could, at the base here in Italy we don't have the "total access" internet. The internet is really censored to the point where I couldn't get video game cheat codes, look at some of the artists websites from here because it contains a nude drawing or whatever, or some sites because it has ANY kind of streaming media. So all the cool trailers that get talked about here, I never get to see. Bits and pieces of Mark Millar's website is blocked off to me except his blog and the messegeboards.

[DJ Kenobi]

JPJ, I have a suggestion for you. Why not go to Millarworld.tv and express your dislike to Mark virtually? You may even get him to respond and you can ask him why, etc.
I don’t really see how that’s pertinent here. In a forum titled Comics Analysis people are going to express their opinions. JPJ wasn’t making a personal attack to Mr. Millar, he was discussing his personal opinion concerning his writing. And as a professional writer I’d imagine that Mr. Millar knows that you can’t please everyone all the time. It’s just the nature of the beast.

As for my thoughts on the subject, I think Millar writes amazingly creative plots. I often read his works just to see where he takes the story, but I also think he writes his characters very flat. Reading The Authority series is probably the best example of this, where the second half of the series was written by Millar and the story was excellent. The concepts for what he did to the team were thrilling and I thoroughly enjoyed his run. However, the characters had lost their nuance that they had under Ellis and all sounded the same. This is not Ulitmates related directly, but I bring it up as a series with the same characters with two different writers which makes analyzing something as fluid as characterization a bit easier. I’ve always liked Millar for his storytelling and not for his characters, and I imagine I will continue to do the same.

But then again, I have zero problems with the politics he writes into his books. Actually, that is also one of the aspects that really draw me to his writing. Comics as political allegory has always been one of the strengths of the superhero genre in my opinion and it’s nice to see it still thriving under some writers, Millar being one of the better ones.

[A.D.R.I.A.N.]

let Millar finish the arch and then talk about this... the story isn't done til it's done. The guy is writing a helluva story IMHO and I'm eargerly awaiting the next issue (no matter how long it takes). It's easy to dismiss something or someone that don't subscribe to the same views you have, but like it was said earlier, It's entertainment first and formost, and being an artform, you're gonna get some a few round pegs that won't fit in the square hole. I'm drinking and if this post did not make too much sense, ignore me. Thank you

[DevonW]

Your post made sense, Adrian. I just don't agree.

I'm not really interested in not talking about something until it's done. I like to talk about things as they're progressing. It's called speculation, and that's part of the fun of comics.

And I never dismissed him. All I was saying is he was pushing the line just a little much for me. He's -almost- redeemed himself after the latest issue, though. Almost.

I mean, the Hawkeye moment alone makes me briefly forget I was upset with him.

[JPJ]

I have yet to finish last arc for Ultimates but I can't help but wonder why he doesn't write more like he did in Wanted (his best work, EVER). Less political, more strange, crazy action, great characters...His Authority run is pretty much the same as his Ultimates run but his only other "mainstream" stuff that I ever thought was truly entertaining was his work on Ultimate FF. I've only read the first couple of issues that he did with Greg Land and it was great, along with the Ultimate FF annual.

Mark Millar is a great writer when he's more creative and less political. I think it tends to distract from the stories.

[A.D.R.I.A.N.]

Your post made sense, Adrian. I just don't agree.

I'm not really interested in not talking about something until it's done. I like to talk about things as they're progressing. It's called speculation, and that's part of the fun of comics.

And I never dismissed him. All I was saying is he was pushing the line just a little much for me. He's -almost- redeemed himself after the latest issue, though. Almost.

I mean, the Hawkeye moment alone makes me briefly forget I was upset with him.

That's cool
I see that. and it was the end of that issue with knowing Cap is free that sent chills up my spine. :P

[Trilogy]

I finally got my long awaited Ultimates trades in. This is the first two that came out and the recent Gods and Monsters. I'm reading through this and while it looks great, the action is fantastic, I just...I don't get it anymore or want to.

My main peeve is Mark Millar's writing in this. Case in point where he portrays the military and the government. It's obvious how much he actually dislikes the whole Bush admin and he portrays all of the military poorly. Example: The soldiers who toss Banner out of the helicopter and the soldiers pushing the kid to the ground. As a US soldier the last scene that I described really got to me to the point where I wanted to throw the book out. Gods and Monsters is just a book that is not only inferior to the previous two, but the whole club scene was another thing that bothered me. "The thief in chief!", spitting on soldiers.

I understand a writer likes to put his little insights and thoughts into his books and what not but I believe Mark Millar has started getting a little over the top. I like to read comics to be entertained and not to see the O'Reilly Factor or I Hate the Current Gov etc


On the other note, I mentioned this in the Civil War thread, his characters are all straight out pricks. There's always a character who plans on seducing another character, enough sexual references in there to fill up Penthouse, and every other word of dialogue is in bold for dramatic effect. (That's very nitpicky but it drives me insane.)

Anyways...sorry for the rant but I had a few minutes to kill at work and I haven't had my coffee.

"As a writer I just don't feel that any subject should be taboo, and I think implying some should be leans towards asking writers to censor themselves. And trying to blame fiction for real world violence is a slippery slope that also leads to censorship."

-Ed Brubaker

I completely agree with Brubaker here. Just because some of the issues that Millar incorporates into his comics are relevant to present day American politics doesn't mean he should rap a leash around his vision and bottle up some of his creative juices. In fact, if you ask me, it sounds silly to suggest that Millar - or any writer - should do so. Are people here really suggesting that if Millar has an idea for a story that he feels is brilliant, or worth telling, that he shouldn't write said idea into the story if it hits too close to home with politics?

And hey, don't get me wrong, I get a little put off by some things I read in comics. I'm a black man who served 4 1/2 years in the Marine Corps (one trip to Kuwait in 03, one trip to Iraq last year). So yeah, JPJ, I completely know where you're coming from. As a black man, Hudlin sometimes writes some things that put me off. I was put off by one of Garth Ennis' portrayal of a black man within the first few pages of a Punisher issue that hit shelves several months ago. On a lighter note, I can't stand how Ennis has let his personal disdain for superheroes dictate some of his work (I shouldn't even have to provide examples here).

I don't like to see the military being portrayed as evil, but just like in all walks of life, there are shitty people in the military who do shitty things. Period. Who am I to tell a professional writer that he is forbidden to touch on those shitty things? I may not like it, but I'll never suggest that a writer not write it. And how do any of us really know how Millar really feels about politics anyway?

[ntholdenuk]

Guys I think that you all make valid points. I personally like millars writing and his portrayal of govrenments American or otherwise is a comicbook take. It may or may not be his own personal views (I doubt very much) but what if it is. Its a story and its not real.
Almost every idea/story concept has been done to death, a new take on that idea may invlove making some well loved character anal, or just making them Pr**ks, to make it different from similar stuff before. As a writer Millar does seem to come up with grand plots that change worlds by the last page, to change worlds surely you need to touch on the actions of governing bodies etc, thats what comics are all about. Imagination.

Anyway just my opinion.
Love these discussions. Here was me thinking this was justa place to post art.
Oh and in case Millar reads this. "Moan the coatbridge posse."