?Something crossed my mind the other night...

[Screamus]

Was watching UFC.

Now I know this isn't exactly comic based
but,
What if Bruce lee had lived to see and join UFC?
While I'm at it, how would Bruce lee do if he entered at his prime (his 20's I think).

Like I said, just a thought.

[ielle77]

bruce had too much class for that.

in the end he had begun to really get into his "you should be like water" mantra and thought he was the sh*t... which in his case, he was lol.

I doubt very highly he'd ever "lower" himself to that.

UFC is just too pointless for him. He didn't believe in fighting for glory. You fought for a reason (avenge your master, avenge your family etc).

I personally think that it Bruce were alive today he'd be involved in all the crouching tiger stuff... either as a choreographer or an actor. He was very serious about his craft, he wanted to be seen as a good actor and not just another asian stereotype. he was also just beginning to get into directing. YOu know the more i think about it, I think I can all see him creating a fun film with Jackie since he did have a sense of humor too (ever see his face in Enter the Dragon after he throws the snake into the guard's observation room, hillarious).

This isn't to say UFC isn't entertaining, so forgive me if you think i'm bashing your show. I just don't think it's for him.

[WillTurner]

Oh yeah full agreement here. Even in his prime he was very philosophical (Fave interview comment- when asked if he was American or Chinese, he turns to the camera and says "I am a human being")

I like to think he'd be a consultant. Tarantino is on record as saying if he'd been alive, he'd have approached him to cameo in Kill Bill (again though, I'd be surprised)

[fatmancomics]

If there was such a thing as UFC back in the days before he ever made any movies, Bruce would've joined for the same reason the Gracies were such a big part of UFC in the beginning, to show that his style was the most effective. Bruce went around giving demonstrations at every martial arts expo he could showing the effectiveness of his techniques before becoming a film star.
I forget who it was that they were interviewing for one of the documentaries on Bruce but they said that he got challenged to fight almost every day (on some days more than once) while on the set of Enter the Dragon and he axcepted EVERY challenge. If he took the time to put his extras in place, I don't see why he wouldn't accept a challenge from someone in the UFC.

[Mike]

Tarantino is on record as saying if he'd been alive, he'd have approached him to cameo in Kill Bill (again though, I'd be surprised)
That statement is more about Quentin Tarantino's wishes rather than Bruce Lee's wishes.

[ielle77]

i donno, i think bruce would have liked it because it treated two very powerful cult genres with EXTREME respect and it enpowered not only women BUT asians. As the asian leads are actually asian and are NOT white people running about with buck teeth saying "sooo saaawwweee" (something that use to make Bruce's blood boil). You have Hatori Hanzo as a very honerable and yet amusing swordmaker, you have Pei Mei as a strict and stubburn master (both played by Gordon Li). You have Lucy Lu playing a very strong female lead who is deadly and sadistic BUT for a completely valid reason. She's not evil or crooked because she's asian. She's messed up because she watched her family DIE.

Finally you have a white woman who is very well skilled in the martial arts. Now granted, she's an assassin, but even she knew it was wrong and had no problems leaving the life behind once she became pregnant. Bruce was a firm believer in bringing the martial arts OUT of asia and opening it up to the entire world (a belief that got him in trouble with many other martial art masters over the years). So again, I would venture to guess he would enjoy that part of the plot.

So you know, unless Lee was in too poor of health to help out, i can't see why he wouldn't want to work with Tarantino on this... um less it was all the blood and swearing. Maybe that would turn him off.

Here's a question for you guys though... what do you think BRANDON would be up to now had he not been killed during The Crow?

[Trilogy]

bruce had too much class for that.

in the end he had begun to really get into his "you should be like water" mantra and thought he was the sh*t... which in his case, he was lol.

I doubt very highly he'd ever "lower" himself to that.

UFC is just too pointless for him. He didn't believe in fighting for glory. You fought for a reason

Nuff said.

[haunted]

I am a fan of both the UFC and Bruce Lee. I'm not too sure what he would think of the UFC. I think that Bruce Lee's fighting system is mostly based on striking. Against a stand-up fighter/striker/kick-boxer, I think he could do reasonably well as long as he fought in his weight-class. I think a striker like Andre "the pittbull" Arlovski or Tim Slyvia would tear him to pieces. I think if Bruce Lee went up against someone like Tank Abbott he might get smashed if he could not stand up to the initial minute or so of Tank's onslaught. I'm pretty sure if Bruce Lee went up against a UFC or MMA grappler, he would be owned.

What I think a lot of people don't understand is that just because Bruce Lee was a movie star and did a bunch of fancy kicking in martial arts movies, does not make him the best martial artist/fighter of all time.

A lot of people in the comics/RPG community think that, "OMG Bruce is sooo fast! he is a god of martial arts and fighting!" when those same people don't know a damn think about martial arts. You wanna see a REAL fast and skilled fighter? Watch Vitor Belfort. Thats real speed and skill. Not choreographed moves done in a movie.

Just my opinion though.

[theycallmemisterbob]

.

What I think a lot of people don't understand is that just because Bruce Lee was a movie star and did a bunch of fancy kicking in martial arts movies, does not make him the best martial artist/fighter of all time.

A lot of people in the comics/RPG community think that, "OMG Bruce is sooo fast! he is a god of martial arts and fighting!" when those same people don't know a damn think about martial arts. You wanna see a REAL fast and skilled fighter? Watch Vitor Belfort. Thats real speed and skill. Not choreographed moves done in a movie.

Just my opinion though.

There's always one in the crowd ready to pull on the guy on top. Here's the thing: Bruce Lee was all that, and a bag of chips. Even if he had gone Hollywood, he walked it like he talked it. He was no phony.

You're right though, not being an athlete, I admit that I'm not knowlegable in the Martial Arts. The bulk of my experience, is just knowing an incredible physical specimen when I see one.

So correct me if I'm wrong. I know a little bit about the mythos, but my information may not be accurate. Wasn't it not too long ago, that the world outside of Asia, was largely unaware about the fighting arts? And wasn't it Bruce Lee the one that was credited with breaking the veil of secrecy surrounding kung fu?

Seems to me, if that's true, that anyone not Asian, who can fight, can thank Bruce directly, for their skills. He was great -give the man his due.

[ielle77]

amen!

and btw speed doesn't mean crap. Just cuz your fast doesn't make you a great martial artist. Granted it helps, but if you can't put any force behind it or your aim is off or even your timing, well then what's the point?

As for bruce, ever see the video of the demostration he did at ucla (think it was ucla, eh doesn't matter). He does the one inch punch. No fancy moves. NO crazy speed (though it was pretty fast). Just force and a whole crap load of it from only an inch away from the guy he was hitting. What happened? The man (a martial artist himself) flew back quite a few feet.

I'm sorry but that IS something to be impressed by.

Long live the Lee Legend.

Anyone who disses him is just jealous.

[haunted]

Well, I guess I'm the bad guy of this thread huh? Alright maybe I wasn't clear in what I was saying. Bruce Lee is indeed an amazing martial artist/athlete that started a revolution in martial arts. Not disagreeing with that. I know that is beyond a shadow of a doubt a FACT.

However, what I was trying to say was that as a FIGHTER, going up against a UFC/MMA fighter like Andre Arlovski or Tim Sylvia, Bruce Lee would get smashed. I'm not saying all UFC/MMA fighters would kill him, just the top dogs.

I never said speed was EVERYTHING to be a skilled fighter. I was just commenting on all the geeks being amazed at Bruce Lee's speed when there are other martial artists/fighters just as fast or faster.

Oh and skill isn't everything in a fight. BRUTE STRENGTH and MEANINESS are huge factors. Tank Abbott is not very skilled at all(and has a god awful record) but is known for absolutely decimating his opponents. Skill isn't gonna be much good if you are fighting a grizzly bear.

I am also a martial artist. I took Kung-Fu classes on and off(when I can afford them) and made it to black belt. I had to spar with people lower, at my skill level, and beyond my skill level. The people with more skill than me, often I could still over-power them, pin them on the ground and rain down punches(not hard punching, it's sparring so I just poked him in the face :) ). I'm able to over-power a lot of my classmates because I'm also a weight-lifter so I'm three times stronger than a lot of them. Tank Abbott has a 650 pound bench press and he weighs in at 250. He's a monster. He does lack skill, but if you couldn't survive the first minute, you lost. The skilled MMA fighters that could make it through his onslaught did find ways to beat Abbott(explains his crappy record). I guess maybe if Bruce Lee could live through the first minute, he might be able to beat Tank Abbott. Andre Arlovski or Tim Sylvia, not a chance.

[ielle77]

now now, there are no bad guys on threads, just people of different opinions. ANd i'm the first to say, um yeah Bruce got his a$$ kicked by 5 guys in an alley one night... not sure if it was an alley now that i think about it... eh doesn't matter. So OBVIOUSLY the man was NOT invincible.

But i still gotta stick to my guns and say strength isn't end all be all in a fight. Now of course I've never taken a martial art class in my life (less you count tae bo... sorry bad joke) I was my cousin's practice dummy, so if you need a gal to flip over your shoulder and land well... I'm her lol. But I've gone to a lot of tournaments: Tae Kwon Do (sp?), Boxing and Fencing (which I actually like to think i can do lol... on a good day) From what i've noticed, it's just a matter of rest. What i mean by that is, the more refreshed fighters tend to do better. If this is your opponant's third or fourth round he/she may not be as sharp as the next guy. He can out weigh you, he can out skill you, he can be meaner, he can be faster... but if his behind is already dragging, well you've got an edge.

So i guess what i'm trying to say is, it's all luck. LOL. Sad no? Sure those things will give you an edge but in the end i really do think it's a Rocky story, sometimes the underdog comes out of nowhere and just wows you. Other times he does exactly what you expect, rolls over and plays dead.

How do i think Bruce would fair in the UFC.. well.. how can anyone guess? There are just too many variables.

Do i think he'd participate? No way. for reasons i said earlier.

[haunted]

True I don't think Bruce Lee would enter the UFC. He doesn't need to prove himself that way. In fact I asked my Kung-Fu instructors why none of the masters enter MMA(mixed martial arts) competitions and they said that the masters just are not about that. It's mostly angry, young males that enter the realm of MMA.

That other factor you are talking about there is called CONDITIONING. And you are right, it's very important to fighters. It determines whether or not you will be ready to go in round five or winded.

LUCK is not a factor in fighting. It is in basketball, pool, football, sports like that. But not in fighting. I think you'll have to sit down and watch some MMA fights(Pride, UFC), kickboxing, or muay tai kickboxing and you will see that lucky punches and kicks don't exist. Or take some martial arts classes(not tae kwon do, that's just a crappy sport with nothing but kicking and no grappling). It comes down to skill, strength, conditioning, and experience. No luck, save that for the card players.

[Steve96383SS]

In response to the last reply....in real life (not movies) the real trick is to APPLY the forms and techniques in real life situations. In real combat alot of kicks or punches never make contact. It's great to learn and perfect your next form in order to recieve you next belt or level in your art. BUT CAN YOU APPLY IT EFFECTIVELY IN ACTUAL COMBAT? One thing I strongly believe in is that IT'S NOT THE SIZE OF THE DOG IN THE FIGHT, BUT THE SIZE OF THE FIGHT IN THE DOG. I agree with you, it's not luck. It's not size, It's who fights SMARTER. Obviously in a street fight the odds are in the favor of the bigger opponent. HOWEVER, if the smaller opponent applies the science of thier art, they CAN WIN. EXAMPLE: Big guy throws a roundhouse. 1) The smaller guy keeps his eyes on the elbows. (the fist moves twice as fast as the elbow in a roundhouse punch, 4 times faster in a jab) Keep your eyes on your opponent's eyes, or fists and you going to get hit. The elbow will actually move before the fist. This is called "Telegraphing". Picture a fighter cocking back his arm to deliever a punch. His body movement is sending you a message such as "HEY BUDDY, HE COMES A LEFT CROSS!!" During the punch the smaller fighter counters with a block to the elbow. Control the elbow, and you will control the rest of the arm. The punch is more of a open handed push. THE TRICK IS TO REDIRECT THE OPPONENTS ENERGY, NOT ABSORB THE BLOW DEAD ON IN AN ATTEMPT TO STOP IT. Once this happens, the smaller fighter performs a circle wristblock and pulls the bigger fighter's arm, continuing the punch furthur on it's path (farther then the bigger guy intended) in the direction the tips of his shoes are pointing and down at a 45 degree angle. This does two things. TAKES THE BIGGER GUY OFF BALANCE AND CREATES AN OPENING. In this case, the oppurtunity for a devastating and painful strike to the kidney. There are entire styles of martial arts based on theories and techniques such as these. Look at Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan, Jet Li, Zing Zhai (girl in crouching tiger), Donnie Yen and alot of other martial artists. Notice how they are all smaller in size? Once again, SIZE MEANS NOTHING. I never really got big into UFC. But from what I've seen they are all pretty much big guys, right? I believe Bruce Lee could have walked into the octogan and been a major force to be reckoned with. Since I was a kid I always wanted to learn a style of real Kung Fu. 4 years ago I was lucky to find an actual instructor. Since then I have been learning Traditional Wing Chun Kung Fu. (which is also the first style Bruce Lee ever learned). The best part of my training was when my instructor introduced me to Grandmaster William Chueng at a seminar in New Jersey. He is the Grandmaster of Traditional Wing Chun in the world. He actual grew up with Bruce Lee, as they were both taught by Yip Man in Hong Kong when they were children. That for me, was as close to meeting Bruce Lee as I'll ever get. He is a little over 60 now and is by far the greatest I have ever witnessed. By the way, Wing Chun was founded by a Nun, and her first student was a young girl!! The one inch punch spoke of earlier is real and is based on foot position, balance, and transfer of energy. Although alot of fight scenes used in modern films portray "fantasy" martial arts with special effects, every aspect of Lee's beliefs and ideas were in fact, true. He created Jeet Kun Do, which uses the strongest elements from several different arts. Simplicity and physics were used in creating the techniques and forms. The one inch punch is very real, although skeptical to some people (thanks to matrix style coreagraphy) The feet, positioned one ahead of the other shoulder width apart) split the body weight 70% and 30%. The rear foot makes contact with the ground only with the tip of the foot. The legs are bent loosely at the knees, allowing quicker movement. (think of a coiling snake ready to strike). The arm begins to move to deliever the punch, but is kept in the centerline of the body. (punch with your fist starting at the center of your chest moving out in a straight line). Body motion and mass is then transffered as the hips rotate slightly moving the centrifigual force into the arm. The body advances forward off the rear leg adding even more power. The arm and fist are loose during motion, and then tightened along with the wrist and elbow snapping upon impact. Your punch will move faster when your not clenching your fist. (imagine punching thru a punching bag, not just hitting it) It takes tremendous practice and correct form position to do it correctly, but it is very effective. As far as UFC, everything I know about Bruce Lee tells me he would never do it. But on the other hand, if he had, it would have been as a demonstration in order to show the effectiveness of his style. He was big on showing how Keet Kun Do could be used against other martial arts. I also think that Tony Jaa has the potential to equal Bruce Lee's accomplishments, maybe even surpass them. Don't get me wrong, I'm not knockin UFC, I just think that some styles of martial arts are much more effective. Not to say that I would ever want to personally test my theory! A Grappler is probably the last fighter I would look forward to contending with. Anyways I think he would have done very well in the octogon, as long as he stayed one step ahead of the other guys. Once a punch from Tito Ortiz connected, Bruce would have been in serious trouble, but don't think he would have been a easy target to hit either. Their best shot would be a straight jab. It's the hardest to counter. Forget kicks, way to much telegraphing, and once your foot is off the ground, your off balance. BALANCE, OPENING, ELBOWS and CROSSING THE ARMS are the basis of Wing Chun Kung Fu. I never heard of Bruce Lee getting his ass kicked in an alley by 5 guys. Not to say it could have never happened, I just want to ask where it was heard from. Any info you can give would be appreciated. I noticed my reply is the first one in a few months, but if anyone wants to add anything or share a comment feel free to send me an email. Also if anyone knows of any good martial arts forums I would love to hear about it. Thanks.

[Castorius]

Ok i'm going to answer this guys question. I notice alot of people dodging it by saying "He would never do it. blah blah blah".. Hes not asking if he ever would hes asking if he did what would happen how would he fair. This is my take...

Bruce Lee, imho, would do very well in the UFC versus other brawlers/strikers/boxers/kickboxers , basically anyone that tried to go toe-to-toe with him and was in the area of weight or 100-150lbs over his weight. Grapplers on the other hand... I don't think he would win them all.

Also just as a note. Bruce Lee was not simply power... or simply speed... He was both. Power, not strength. A person with Speed, and Power will definately have a very very large advantage in a fight. You may ask well how do you develop power? Your abdominal muscles is you main source of power. It is not the only source but the biggest. Because, I remember a quote from Bruce Lee that stated something like this, "If you do not have a developed abdominal muscle, you should not spar".

Also, I have to say that I love Bruce Lee. He was a great man, great martial artist, great... simply great. However, he is not the god of fighting. He can not defeat everyone. Some people simply have other's numbers. There are other amazing people in the world too. Not all of them are going to go down in 1 hit by Bruce. Bruce Lee is in fact a "Human Being" as he himself said.

[Mr.Hades]

Steve96383SS, you make some valid points but I do not agree with all of them. Bruce Lee, or any martial artist would be at massive disadvantage if they fought against a caged fighter in the octagon. Why? In cage fights, there are rules. The cage fighter fights to rules and as most martial arts don't, as in "there are no rules in the street", they would be a fish out of water. Its like sticking a Judo player in a boxing ring and say "Have a boxing match with this guy".

You also mention that size does not matter. This, in my opinion, is incorrect. If two equally skilled opponents fought each other, but one was bigger and stronger, he/she would have an advantage. Obviously you don't try to match strength with strength, but the fact is the stronger guy has the advantage here.

I don't wish to comment on the cage fighters lifestyle and martial arts practice, but I practice my Kung-Fu for so many more reasons than fighting. I doubt I would be were I am today if I had not started training all those years ago!

[Dawnsknight]

I'm gonna disagree with you Mr.Hades. Bruce started his martial arts studies in Wing Chun. Though sometimes traditionally known as "The Women's Wushu" Wing Chun is a practical fighting art which teaches maneuvering in small areas, as well as grappling locks, breaks and holds. When I started studying it, there were times we had to 'spar' without moving more than a square foot from the starting position. WingChun is almost an 'all encompassing' form of wushu. After that, Bruce did study other arts in order to eventually create JKD. One of his regular sparring and training partners was Jhoon Rhee (a man nearly in his 70's who teaches self defence for American congress, this guy does 1000 pushups each morning, no lie) a Tae Kwon Do expert (I think he also does Hap Ki Do), he was bound to learn the strengths of that art alone doing that. Remember, in a lot of Bruce's movies, he personally called up real martial artists and tournament champions to be members of the cast to make authentic looking fight scenes, he had exposure to almost any style you could think of, and would take advantage of the opportunity to learn the strengths of the techniques.
With UFC, there are a great many skilled fighters... do I think Bruce could win against Gracie? I don't know... I think he'd at least hold his own and give a great match. Would he do it?
Possibly, he was involved in many martial arts demonstrations, been in tournaments, he brought kung-fu to the general public. So yes, I think he would do it, if only to promote wushu to the world.

[Dawnsknight]

Sorry, double post.

[Mr.Hades]

I have no doubts as to Bruce's skill level and mastery of the Martial Arts. The point I was trying to make is, he trained to be as lethal as he possibly could be, eye gouging, groin strikes and biting etc. All of this you cannot do in a cage fight. If you put him up against a UFC fighter who trains to fight within UFC rules in a cage match, Bruce would have the odds stacked up against him. Why? Virtually all the techniques he trains up, he cannot use as they are too dangerous. Cage fighting uses alot of grappling and ground work, looking for submissions. I have no doubt if he had spent time fighting to these rules, he would have excelled.

The opposite rings true as well. If a cage fighter was to get into a fight in the street, he cannot be as effective as someone who trains to use lethal techqniues. If you train with rules, they will affect how you perform.

[WillTurner]

What about Jet Li in Unleashed? If he can do it, Bruce Lee could do it no probs.

[50%grey]

Bruce would get owned in the UFC.

Anyone remember the first UFC when they had alot of competitors from various Martial Arts from the Far East,they were slaughtered,and never came back.

Also is there any documented footage of Bruce Lee in a real fight or a sactioned Fight? nope ...just heresay. Honestly even a low end pro boxer would kill him.

Bruce is cool and all,but hes no pro fighter. At least I never seen any proof of that..

[Deth]

Ive seen video of Bruce Lee as a teenager in a real fight.

He used to go on rooftops and the teens would streetfight. it was a 1 minute video of bruce and this guy punching at each other and running around the roof. kinda chaotic looking.

I think Bruce would have done very well in UFC and theres more than just heresay to back up his real fighting. Although I never saw it. bruce did demonstrate that he could beat a man in less than a minute in front of a crowd of fellow martial artists. Its not really heresay if you have an audience.

[50%grey]

So your'e telling me with all the cameras that were constanly around Bruce Lee theres not one video of him ever getting in a real fight?? The 1 minute fight you saw was probly an outake from one of his movies,or wasnt bruce at all.

I think Bruce was a very charismatic person and was a legend in martial arts,but just the artistic part. The guy was no pro fighter otherwise he would have become famous from that alone (example would be Chuck norris 1 kickboxer),and as far as his prowess in streetfighting ,I'm sorry im just not buying it.

I know theres a book out there that Debunks the Bruce Lee mythos..cant recall the name right now tho.hmm

Also ive seen the infamous 1 inch punch videos ,and have acutely seen 3 of his students perform it live. I takes them over 15 minutes just to prepare for it ,and the target has to be positioned correctly and can not move at all when the strike happens. Its cool ,but impractical.

Whatever Bruce is a martial artist Icon,but thats all he is..he has no pro record in anything.

[Deth]

Dude Im just telling you what Ive seen. and no its not an outtake from a movie. and Chuck Norris was not a kickboxing champion he was the US Karate champion. He was also a student of Bruce Lee.
Chuck Norris was a great Karate specialist. I think in his prime he was excellent.

to be honest as good as they all are I think Mirko Crocop from PrideFC could take em all.

[50%grey]

Youre right it wasnt called kickboxing back then in the US it was called full contact karate. I got videos of Chuck fighting in new orleans in his prime ,and trust me thats kickboxing.

[Mr.Hades]

To be fair, the one inch punch can be done. My instructor has struck me using the technique, lightly, I might add. Felt like me chest was going to cave in.

The technique is usually demonstrated by using a 'push' rather than a 'strike'. This causes the person who is being demonstrated on to stagger backward. To assist this, the person who is demonstrating will usually get his target to stand with their feet in line, so they can easily be pushed off balance.

The old tricks of getting people in a line and all of them falling over is nonsense. Anyone every watch dominos falling over? :)

[Agents Myth]

Well, as a martial artist, golden gloves boxer myself and self-appointed Bruce Lee historian I will say this: Bruce Lee's regiment of training ALONE was far beyond any UFC figthers regiment. One must remember that Jeet Kune Do was a fighting style that Bruce himself created, free of all the what he deemed, unesscesary elements, centered on totally uniting the mind, body and spirit into one element. UFC fighters train for fights, stamina and fitness with preparation of upcoming tournanments. Bruce also studied the fighting and defense techniques of various animals and insects, incorporating many into his style/s. He looked at fighting always as an art form first, therefor always finding ways to improve his craft. The speed vs power issue is a dead one, just look at your old Leonard vs Hearns tapes, while Hearns had twice the power of Leonard he couldn't handle the speed of Leonard's attack. I also doubt that Bruce would allow himself to constantly be grappled in a tournament that allows grapple holds and I truly doubt that any UFC guy could take him today, they just dont have the discipline. Oh, and for those who say he did'nt hold any titles in fighting, have you done your research? Look again.

[Logan]

ielle, you know that i love you, but this time you're wrong.;) hattori hanzo was played by my favorite actor in the world, sonny chiba. he also choreographed the sword fighting for the films.

[Goldenarms]

Steve96383SS, you make some valid points but I do not agree with all of them. Bruce Lee, or any martial artist would be at massive disadvantage if they fought against a caged fighter in the octagon. Why? In cage fights, there are rules. The cage fighter fights to rules and as most martial arts don't, as in "there are no rules in the street", they would be a fish out of water. Its like sticking a Judo player in a boxing ring and say "Have a boxing match with this guy".
I'm going to sum this up with a little story I read about Bruce Lee.

One day, a judo expert was facing off against Bruce Lee, and Bruce would be the guy every time before the guy had a chance to set up. After the spar, the judo expert asked Bruce, "What would you do if I had the time to set up?" He simply looked the man in the eye, and calmly said, "Walk away."

Bruce isn't a mindless brawler. He knew his limits. He knew he stood no chance on the mat, and so, he would not even attempt to battle on the guy's level. Later on, he trained more in groundfighting so he would be more able in that environment.

Also, one thing you said later struck out to me. The sum of Bruce Lee's fighting style is based on the kind of stuff that will KILL if not maim someone severly. The one inch punch set up bit is a safety precaution. It's been documented by Bruce Lee himself if I recall correctly that he had to slide his right foot back to restrict the power of it. Otherwise, he would most likely have crushed the assistant's sternum and vital organs, which usually kills people, I hear.

In a structured environment, like tournaments, fighters get into the habit of doing things that will get them killed in a street fight. Throwing fancy kicks, aim for the head a lot, or trying to sway favor with the judges in some way. Embarrassingly, tournament champions will mess around and do tournament habits in a real fight, and promptly get messed up quick. No one likes to admit to it, but it happens a lot. One example I remember is two police officers were training each other to disarm a suspect with a wrist lock and take away the gun. Each time they did it, they would give he gun back so the other would try it out. One night, one of the guys gets a call and he catches an armed suspect by surprise. He does the disarm technique quite well, then gives the gun back out of habit. Thankfully, his partner shot the guy down before he himself was greased, but still, it's horrible to think about.

So, would Bruce Lee survive the UFC? Would he even get involved with it? I don't think so. He would fight against the competitors one-on-one, but not in the ring. Not if he has to abide by stringent rules that restrict him effectiveness. On that note, he would own most every fighter. I've no idea about the Gracies, but I would love to see him against Tito Ortiz sometime. :D


You also mention that size does not matter. This, in my opinion, is incorrect. If two equally skilled opponents fought each other, but one was bigger and stronger, he/she would have an advantage. Obviously you don't try to match strength with strength, but the fact is the stronger guy has the advantage here.
Depends on one thing, Hades... whose desire to win is stronger? The one thing I learned growing up is this: it doesn't matter how much strength you have, it doesn't matter how fast you are, or how talented you are, what keeps a man going long after all these things have evaporated is his will to win at all costs. You can't beat a man who refuses to stay down. Skill levels aside, anyone who cannot be knocked unconscious will continue to fight with everything he has in him. It's natural fact. Strength and size is not a big deal unless you make it one in your own mind, in which case you will limit yourself accordingly. "Speed is nothing without power," or something along that line Bruce Lee once said, and he's right. Power isn't about strength, though; that's something Bruce Lee recognized in his living days. The way I feel he saw power was the indominable will behind the strength, the speed, the technique. Without that, he would have never been able to come up with Jeet Kun Do, which is arguably the most effective martial arts on the planet. If it weren't for his drive and burning desire to be the best, Bruce Lee would have been just another Asian fighter with good moves.

[Mr.Hades]

Goldenarms, you make many valid points and put into writing what I had so much trouble doing!

they say its 'not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog'. this is true to some degree, but the whole "it dosent matter how big or strong you opponent is, this technique will beat them" is preached a little to often. I found this out in jujitsu many a time. I'm quite tall, so the small guys could throw me around quite easily. The reverse in this case is true. The smaller guy, with his lower center of gravity, is much better suited to perform certain techniques.

I guess what I'm babbling about is that size is a consideration and to write it off would be a mistake.

With JKD, I look upon it a philosophy as opposed to a full system. As far as I am aware, Bruce never completed the system. Please correct me if I'm wrong anyone!

[Deth]

In it's early form it started off as a counter oriented style.

It moved on to become a very much Vale Tudo like style.

You are right, the art is not refined. Thats why there arent that many good practitioners of it.

Size makes a big difference in a fight. a heavier guy can normally throw a punch much harder than a lighter guy.

But skill does go along way.

Such as Aikido. Im sure we've all seen the 5 foot nothing guy tossing around the 6 foot guy by his wrist.

some people train to overcome the weight variences of combat.

Whether Bruce Lee did Im not sure.

[e_t_i]

I own a pile of books on Bruce Lee and there's lots of stuff in this topic that I've never heard of :D

But I know this: Bruce has already beaten everyone in the UFC.

[Deth]

Have any of you seen the documentary

Bruce Lee
The Warrior Within. ?

It has so much footage on him you'd be amazed.

it shows him training Chuck Norris, and Kareem.

It shows him fighting on rooftops as a teen.

and it shows the end sequence to Game of Death in its entirety. Not the cut up one they released but the way it was meant to be shown.

[Goldenarms]

Goldenarms, you make many valid points and put into writing what I had so much trouble doing!

they say its 'not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog'. this is true to some degree, but the whole "it dosent matter how big or strong you opponent is, this technique will beat them" is preached a little to often.
I hear that a lot, too. To some degree, I blame afterschool specials. :) I think the flaw is that martial arts in general is too far set on the traditional, or tournament form, to be truly fluid enough to cope and compensate for everchanging things. Too much flash and not enough common sense sounds like a culprit. That's part of why Bruce Lee created Jeet Kun Do; get rid of the ineffective to become more effective.


I guess what I'm babbling about is that size is a consideration and to write it off would be a mistake.
Excellent point, and I may have overstated the fighting spirit a little earlier while thinking of this. The one who has the stronger will is mostly likely to be the one who takes everything into consideration when he chooses to be the victor. Thusly, he's not glossing over disadvantages he's facing, but taking full stock of his own strengths and focusing on them.


With JKD, I look upon it a philosophy as opposed to a full system. As far as I am aware, Bruce never completed the system. Please correct me if I'm wrong anyone!
No, he never "completed" Jeet Kun Do, and I don't think he ever considered it would become in itself a "complete" martial arts system. He viewed it solely as a tool to get from one side of the river to the other; even if the name itself would be abandoned once crossed over, its all well and good, as it is no longer needed and must be discarded, too. Now those that cash in on the system that Bruce Lee used, those are the ones that advertise it as complete, but then add onto things that would in effect weaken the art as a whole. Huge debates rage on even now about what is JKD and what's not. In some ways, the thing they found no longer useful is the principles which JKD is formed on. :(

[Mr.Hades]

I totally agree. I have loads of places near me which teach 'JKD', but all they are really doing is Kali all night long. That was Danny Inosanto's influence, and as far as I'm aware, Bruce didn't think it necessary to devote so much time to it.

[Logan]

bruce didn't teach a style as far as i know. from everything i have read he trained each person to move and fight the best that they could in their particular body. it's not like

bruce woulds say "ok kareem, practice this puch that i perfected a thousand times a day." but more like "ok kareem, obviously you're too damn long to really punch effectively, i mean i have all the time in the world to get around your ass, try using your long kicks to keep me away from you and when i get close focus on elbows and knees"


ok, i'm putting words in his mouth but i'm guessing that as an example it probably works.

[Goldenarms]

bruce didn't teach a style as far as i know. from everything i have read he trained each person to move and fight the best that they could in their particular body. it's not like

bruce woulds say "ok kareem, practice this puch that i perfected a thousand times a day." but more like "ok kareem, obviously you're too damn long to really punch effectively, i mean i have all the time in the world to get around your ass, try using your long kicks to keep me away from you and when i get close focus on elbows and knees"


ok, i'm putting words in his mouth but i'm guessing that as an example it probably works.
I think you got the nail on the head there. Jeet Kune Do is supposed to be the Collateral of martial arts. Lean, no fat of extraneous movements or techniques that don't work for everyone. Adaptability, like jazz music, I Ching, shit like that. Shame it's likely not being taught like that, since it's believed on some level that only Inosato's the true teacher and inheritor of JKD, and thusly, only he's qualified to teach it.

[Mr.Hades]

One Danny's students, Bob Breen, teaches just around the corner from where I work. He charges big money and because of the Bruce Lee lineage, people pay it.

[WillTurner]

One Danny's students, Bob Breen, teaches just around the corner from where I work. He charges big money and because of the Bruce Lee lineage, people pay it.

Heck yes. I felt sharper just from reading the Tao of Jeet Kune Do!

[Johnny Blaque]

I haven't read every post in this thread but I don't think Bruce would completely own UFC. UFC fighters already use the philosophy Bruce tried to teach way back. They don't ridgely stick to one style, they are called Mixed-Martial Artists for a reason.

Like another poster said about Bruce fighting a Judo expert, Bruce tried to end fights are quickly as possible using anything, nails, biting, grion kicks, etc. The rules of an organization like UFC would limit his attacks.