Open Projects Forum Discussion

[Bryan E.Warner]

On Pencil Jack collaberations,( though I'm not ready yet but getting close,still building my skills ) Do the projects get published?
and if so,when going to print is it a Pencil Jack publication?
I'd like to know more.
And when I'm ready how hard is it to become part of a team.
Thank you for your time.
Blessings!
Bryan E.Warner

[CWmax]

Hi Bryan,

The stories created here on the PJ Projects board are not 'officially' published....But if a team member takes the initiative, we can end up with a pretty nifty product...

You can see the results of a previous Conan jam here...
http://www.cuddlyfamily.com/crom/
Board Member/Mod Cuddly went above and beyond to create this site...it's pretty awesome.


To join in on a PJ Project ...Just sign up on a thread....The only thing is....if you sign up, make sure you come thru on your commitment.

(Hint: The Iron Man Jedi Zombie Jam is still way open....Check it out if you want to join in.)


Hope to see some art from you soon.


CW

[xadrian]

On Pencil Jack collaberations,( though I'm not ready yet but getting close,still building my skills ) Do the projects get published?

Not yet they don't. While the idea has been floating around for some kind of name branding and the ability to turn these into published pieces, there is nothing at this time. These are mainly for fun and an exercise in working with other people. Hopefully the next jams they will also be an exercise in getting things done on a deadline.

...and if so,when going to print is it a Pencil Jack publication?

If these ever went to print, it would be hard to be a PJ publication as all the characters we've used have copyright protection. PJ has its own character creation group, the PJU over on the Writer's Desk. Check there for more information.

I'd like to know more.

The Projects forum is basically a place where people can get together and have fun with some existing characters and work together to get a few pages of a story done. It's a Jam atmosphere in that the more people that work on it, the better and more in depth the project is. But these are not meant to be pitches or proposals to any company. You should feel free to use them as portfolio pieces on your own.

And when I'm ready how hard is it to become part of a team?

It's not hard to become part of a team, it's a little harder to organize a jam. Project Editors should have a good amount of organizational skills, a lot of time, a strong desire to see the project complete, and probably some webspace to host images. To start a jam, you just send me (or another Mod) a private message with your proposal and we'll start a new thread up.

If you have any more questions, please don't hesitate to ask.

/edit

Bryan, I hope you don't mind. I've editing your post a bit. I'd like this to be the thread for questions and answers.

[Deunen]

I was thinking that maybe for future projects we could work with original characters or maybe even stories from the PJU that is being created in the writers forum. This would help with avoiding copyright issues and hopefully make it easier to get stories published. Its fun drawing Indy and other well known comic characters but I don't know the copyright laws well enough to know if we could get sued for publishing the Jams we've already completed.

Maybe instead of basing a Jam on a character, choose a genre and style? For example: Horror, Tomb of Dracula style
or Horror, Mignola style or Futuristic, Moebius style or Action, Anime style. After that is when the writer begins the actual story.

Just some thoughts. I realise that would make things more complicated but if we have the dedicated ppl aboard it could be done.

[xadrian]

A lot of this will undoubtedly come up with the impending reorg, but suffice it to say the legalities stop at Fan Art. We're not distributing so that's ok.

I know the PJU guys will at some point want a visual representation of what they've slaved over, and that may come out in here, but we'll have to see.

Good points.

[xadrian]

Open for discussion...

I think one of, if not the major drawback to these jams is the length of time till completion. We've beaten ourselves up and taken slack from viewers and contributors alike that something like 8 pages takes 15 months to complete. On boths sides of the fence you have the idea that this is for fun, not pay and relatively miniscule exposure so what's the rush? But if you can't keep with a deadline here then what hope do you have out there

I've actually thought about this, and personally, I'd rather not spend a year of my life asking for inks over and over again only to have 2-3 people come in at the end and finish it all up. That's not the spirit of the forum.

I don't want to set up too many more rules here, but what would you guys think of a time limit per jam? Theoretically, if each person has a week to work on their duties, and you have enough people, the thing shouldn't take more than a month. Doesn't matter the page count; 5, 8, 10, 22 pages. You have 10 pencilers, they have a week, then the 10 inkers take over, then the 10 colorists/letterists.

What I'd be proposing is a moritorium for floundering jams. If a project is started, you have 2 months to get it done. After two months the thread and project are closed. To me that's plenty of time to recruit, plot, script, draw and post. I know this will spark a lot of thought as to the effort some people put in and how they are punished for others bailing out, but that's a part of the comic world, or any other world. If you're behind, or don't follow through, you're let go.

Now, what comes up is "Well, what happens if after one week I get someone saying they can't finish in time or at all." That's why this is up for discussion. Should we make it three months to give you time to replace a penciler? What happens if that guy bails, four months? You see how this goes? Or should you just put your foot on the gas and really bust hump to get a replacement. If you start a project, you're in charge, it's your baby. What would you do to see it finished?

At this point we've got a few jams under out belt, but they've taken a long time. I'd like to get some turn around in here, get new jams, new people. If old jams are killing the process, then lets cut line and move one.

Discuss.

[Deunen]

I agree with alot of your ideas. I think a 22 page Jam being completed in less than two months is totally within reason. I think we just need to be a little more strict. Maybe if someone doesn't post for a week they are automatically replaced? I also had the idea of setting up a group of artists who are like the emergency artists. Some ppl who are regulars and who are reliable. If a jam gets to a certain date it is automatically given to this group to finish ASAP with what ever work that has already been completed. No hard feelings to whoever couldn't meet the deadline.

Also I think if the Jam has alot of pages it should have an artistic director. I think something that will help to get a job done quick is to have everything prepared at the beginning. Story, all dialogue, maybe thumbs. Then the art director would do up character sheets, notes about them, photo references for any buildings, vehicles, whatever... Just a thought. I had this idea because I saw that if 2 ppl are drawing 2 different pages at the same time there is sometimes the excuse that " I have to wait for X to finish his page inorder to see Y blah blah" The main director would be the person asking for pages assigning the work, collecting and distributing the files.

Just a few more ideas.

About cutting the line I nominate the IronMan Zombie Jedi Jam. I'm sorry CMW but it seems like there is alot that has to be done to get it done. I think I saw only 2 pages one of which was 100% complete. I respect the fact that you've tried to pick up the reigns and get it done but I would like to see a new jam where we have alot of interest from alot of artists. I would nominate the Indy jam but its very close to completion. Its just hard to get people interested. Maybe make stickies in the other sections of the board with something like "About the latest Jam.." When I first joined I just checked out the drawing and sequential boards. I didn't know what the PJ projects section was for the longest.

Ok I typed alot

Deun

[Bryan E.Warner]

Just an idea,( I'm booked right at the moment with "Nick Dean" a comic I created that has gotten several bites,but I have to complete it to hook,)
Do you think coming up with a project with Pencil Jack Characters,( no copyrighted characters ) that would be for actual print,The project or projects would be 1-shots, gathered for an anthology of sorts,no presure on Pencil Jack,just when they thought they had enough good stuff to go to print,
I think that would get the people who are serious to take action,
just a thought,I chose 1-shots because an on going project would probably get the best of us,( unless ya really had something so hot the X-men would pale to it,)
If I was to engage,my work would have to travel ala U.S. postal system,just like some of the Big Boys,
But no time right now,I was just brain storming away to get the results you good folks are looking for,
God Be Blessing Ya!
Bryan E.Warner

[xadrian]

First off, I'm going to merge this with the discussion thread to keep the rest of the board clean.

As far as "Jam to Publish" goes, that's an idea penciljack has, not eschewed completely, but has said it may be in the works for MUCH much later.

There's been no official discussion about incorporating PJU characters into the Projects design either. The idea has merit because it involves complete creativity at Penciljack. I think that the organization, branding, publishing costs that are involved would steer us away right now, but it's definitely open for discussion at some level.

There's a lot going on right now that would put this on the backburner, but I really urge people to make the jams a thing to be proud of. Maybe having shorter jam time would show that going to print with something would have a better chance.

Good points, thank you.

[Deunen]

OMG I just had a cool idea!!

I just picked up my comics along with the new Wizard. I was thinking dam this issue sure has alot of Hollywood stuff and not too much art. I remember the good ol' days where every month there was a section devoted to reader art as well as contests.

So my idea,..... Pencil Jack or Xadrian...(not sure who the boss is) work out a deal with Wizard!!! Maybe have a jam ready every other month for them. Maybe other forums could submit jams as well so there could be a section every month. Our Jams/Projects are like the evolution of a simple fan art and I think Wizard may be interested. And if printed, it will bring more artists and stir more interest so we won't have to be hunting down colorists.

Hope you guys like the idea. I'm just putting it on the table for you guys to pick up and run with if you want.

To the future !
Deun

*edit* I'm not sure how the money situation would be but I don't really care about that. I would just like people to enjoy the story's, get our names out, bring more attention to the website. Maybe any revenue could go to maintain this website.

[penciljack]

Highly, highly doubtful we'll ever be working out any sort of deals with Wizard. Sorry.

I appreciate the ideas, though!

[foxmerquise8]

As a former jam organizer I have this to say;

Jams already complex enough, no reason to go all out on publishing. I like the idea of deadlines, but who will enforce them? It was easily organizing things, the hard part was getting people to meet deadlines. I was giving people more then 2 weeks to do things like character sketches and they still they didn't get it done. Sometimes it would get to the point that I had to track people down just to ask them if they couldn't do it. Some said they forgot!

Seriously, we should close this forum down if we can't do it in under 2 or 3 monthes max. Some people can do an whole comic by themselves in that time. If the jam is not around the top of your to-do list then you shouldn't do it.

Its no point starting another if only 4 people are going to go to the end with it.

[penciljack]

Well, fox, I must say it seems to me that you yourself semi-disappeared in the midst of one of the jams you started. I'm not trying to point fingers necessarily, but I think, given that, you can understand how it is that life can get in the way of things like this. Right?

The trick is going to be finding a method of doing these projects that is still fun and yet still motivates folks to finish. I'm working on some ways to do that. I have some ideas, and as Xadrian and I are able to get to it, we'll be instituting some of those ideas.

[foxmerquise8]

I was watching most of the time, but posting "Hello anyone there" every week like I was doing for 4 monthes was not working. So I just waited.

I tried contacting people and recruiting new people, but most of those conversations went no where. It was nothing much more I could do, and I don't have to miss until the project is done. I went on vacation hoping someone would finish one of the pages and I could put it all together.

Anyway, my point is the people that want to finish it are left on an island alone towards the end and their should be a way to prevent that.

[penciljack]

Well, fox, therein lies the problem. On the one hand, the only way people will sign up is if these things are fun. On the other hand, it seems like the work isn't getting finished without someone being a taskmaster, and that's not fun for anybody.

My suspicion is the subject matter will have a lot to do with the signups, but it's just a fact of life that some folks aren't going to finish their commitment to these projects, and for various and sundry reasons. I myself had to drop out of the Hellboy project that happened a while back, even though I LOVE Hellboy, and I really wanted to work on it. Stuff just happens.

If it's to the point where we're forced to try to "prevent" people from bowing out (which is impossible anyway), then I don't think this forum is serving any real purpose. I want to try to defibrillate it before we give up on it, though.

[foxmerquise8]

If it's to the point where we're forced to try to "prevent" people from bowing out (which is impossible anyway), then I don't think this forum is serving any real purpose

Thats what I'm saying.

[penciljack]

I guess I have to wonder why you're hanging around, then? I'm not interested in just hearing complaints, fox. If this forum serves no purpose for you, then I guess that's that.

I'm interested in trying some more jams before I give up on it. I gotta tell you, I think one of the big problems has been that the last couple of jams have been so unconventional.

There's really no reason, for example, to completely design and revamp characters for every jam, especially when you move the characters FAR away from their original incarnations (for instance, a Ghost Rider character that ... doesn't ride anything?).

Looking back, it seems to me a lot of effort was wasted (and a lot of momentum was spent) in the design process. I think if we rely on established characters, for example, we'll have better luck.

I think we'll also be going with smaller page counts and self-contained stories. Again, I have ideas about how I'd like some of this to work, and I'll get to them. But I don't think this forum is a) dead and b) without purpose, just yet.

[foxmerquise8]

I'm not complaining, I'm just pointing out the problems so you can fix it. I had fun with the jam, I would like to be involved with another jam in someway. I'm echoing your same thoughts. I think I would be of some help since I was seeing how everything was unfolding, I'm not trying to be bitter or mean.

[penciljack]

I must apologize, then, because I must've misunderstood your intent. The point I was making, which I think needs fleshing out by all involved, is that we need to find a way so that these things can be fun AND punctual. Ideas to that end are more than welcomed.

[foxmerquise8]

Agreed.

I'm done.

[CWmax]

Wow...Yep it sure is a tough one...

If people want to do it they do it - then again, a lot of people sign up and then just don't do it...I mean really, what're the consequences of not coming thru on a commitment here...We can't reach thru the screen and choke a bitch!

I think we should take a look at a combo of both positive and negative reinforcment...

1. What "rewards" do you get for of coming thru?
2. What "punishments" do you get for not coming thru?

Perhaps an "Honor Roll" and a "Loser List" might be an idea we can work with...

The Positive being that those that do well are commended and lauded as individuals that honor thier comitments...

The Negative - Losers that sign up and blow it off are forced to wear the scarlet letter so to speak by being publicly humiliated on the list of loser artists that don't make good on their word...

Just a suggestion of a method ... It really is tough to get people to live up to thier word....My thought is that it's always my own reputation on the line and I want to perform as professionally as possible.

CW

[CWmax]

...oops wrong button.

[Bryan E.Warner]

sounds like your on the ball,I think that idea has possibilitys,I believe Buddy Scalera is the online Editor for Wizard,maybe you should run it by him,you should find contact info on Buddy Scalera.com, he should be able to let you know about the possibilitys,and perhaps the steps to take to get there.how ever remember the Big Comic convention is going on so you might not get a quick reply.
Blessings Abound!
Bryan E.Warner

[xadrian]

Yeah, I don't think there's going to be much in the way of publishing these. I think it's one thing if we do a jam and then go to a board that discusses those characters and post a link (like was done for the JLA jam) but outside of that, we're working in fan fiction. Do get it officially published, even in a periodical having nothing to do with the book itself other than reviews or information, would require some legal manoeuvering that's just not on the front burner right now.

It is exciting to see these things done.

What'd be more exciting is to see them done faster.

As to how to get people to work faster, I have no idea. I agree that you can't bully people or threaten them with anything other than being kicked off the project, but even then you're already behind. And as for rewards, there's nothing I can really offer other than my thanks for a job well done. At 5 months to completion, the finished product is all the reward I need.

Good discussion, keep it going.

[penciljack]

Originally posted by Bryan E.Warner
sounds like your on the ball,I think that idea has possibilitys,I believe Buddy Scalera is the online Editor for Wizard,maybe you should run it by him,you should find contact info on Buddy Scalera.com, he should be able to let you know about the possibilitys,and perhaps the steps to take to get there.how ever remember the Big Comic convention is going on so you might not get a quick reply.
Blessings Abound!
Bryan E.Warner
Well, like I said, I don't really have any interest in partnering with Wizard at the moment. My interest lie in what we can do here, not so much elsewhere.

[Deunen]

For the record I didn't plan on running the idea by wizard or anything. I simply wanted to pass the idea to our higher ups. I am happy working on the jams and seeing a finished product. Seeing them in print would be cool but I know its a pain to get done. To show friends the projects I just print them out.

But I did like the idea of using the jams to finance this website somehow. Maybe that is something to explore.

[Bryan E.Warner]

I-Penciler is going for a pretty do able plan,( talking about time lines ect.) but how to get folks to hold up there end,OK it appears that most of us here have that good ol'day job,( you know to suport the family and paying bills ) I suggest that when composeing the creative team,to find out what kinda of a reasonable timeline that the team members might have,my self I work 9-plus hours a day,for me to complete a pg,that includes pencil,inks,letter/sound effects/sometimes color takes me about 2-weeks,take out the coloring and its more like a week an a half,NOW keep in mind thats if there is no interuption in my life,( like company,going to catch a flick,ect )
I think team members should let known there schedule and then be joined with similar team mates,that way everybodys working aprox the same speed,
Well I got to get to that ol'day job,
Blessings!
Bryan E.Warner

[Bryan E.Warner]

I'm not sure,but am I the only one that has to work for a living while breaking into comics,or is it because of my location,( middle of nowhere,High Desert,Central Oregon ) and I have no choice but to be the entire creative team,( believe me if I could just pencil I'd be burning rubber ) or is it because of my job, supervisor of production,and that the schedule Idea just won't work?( no I'm not trying for a leader position,no no no,)
I was only trying to be helpfull,But if you were to know folks schedule and they were truthful and did there best to stick to it,I think you could have several projects going,and have a good idea in what order they would be complete,some really quick for the speedy others a little longer time line,
Just some thoughts,as soon as I mentioned day job,things got real quiet,
Blessings!
Bryan E.Warner

[xadrian]

There's the rub. I can't, unless penciljack installs some lie-detector software, do anything but trust that people who say "Count me in" actually mean "to do some work."

I'd like to experiment with some ideas, such as only doing 5-7 page jams, only doing established characters and no more characters that require sheets before hand, and even doing one jam that will absolutely shut down if one deadline is missed. See if a little more fear will keep people "honest."

It's all a big experiment. I've got a good amount of time during the day to spend on organization, little less in the evening to create, so I'm all about mixing things up.

[Bryan E.Warner]

I-Penciler,I like that,5 to 7 pg project,there have been lots of good stuff between there,like Berni Wrightson just to name one,you could also trim it to 3-pgs ( I was able to pencil/ink a 4-pgr for a writer buddy of mine in about 3-weeks ) after work I'm only good for about 2-hours and make most of my progress on the weekend,( But slow an steady wins the race )
anyway,I do think your on to something.
well,day job calls,
Blessings!
Bryan E.Warner

[Deunen]

I just thought of something. Maybe participating in jams can contribute to the reputation system? I'm not sure how the rep works right now because its new and I haven't really looked into it but I figure it can be an added incentive. Just a thought.

[xadrian]

From what I can gather, the reputation system is board wide and isn't tied to any specific actions other than one user liking or disliking something another member did or said.

I think the idea of using it as an incentive to get projects done is a good one. I also think that I don't want to turn this forum or PJ as a whole into a clique-state where only the cool kids rule.

I'll have to give it some thought and ask the brass what they think. Turning in a negative response to someone who didn't finish on time or at all or is non-responsive may be a dicey situation.

Good thinking though.

[Saga]

My apologies if this is not in the right forum.

I was wondering if there are any "weekly assignments" Things that one could do on there own. Just for "excercise". Like , "Ok i want to see a Kirby consumeing the Avengers as they try to flee in horror." Or, "Show me an add ,envolveing Galactus, for indigestion or constipation medication." Not that i'm anti-social.

If new comers could faithfuly complete a one week assignment then that would maybe show that they can come through on things of larger scale or show how long it takes for them to complete one page of something.

So when someone signs up for a jam it would give some idea of what to expect from that person. Also, this is just a question, Are people just redoing and redoing a page they are working on, because they know so and so is involved and they think there stuff will look like crap next to that persons? I havent ever been part of a jam or tried to take on a project like that and i know people work and have school ,myself included, that takes up alot of time ,so this question might have been idiotic.

I'm new, so these things might have already been done at some point. Also this community might not work that way. just thought i would post some ideas along with my questions.

Sorry again if this is in the wrong place, or my ideas go against what this community is about :)

[xadrian]

1) This isn't the right forum for weekly assignments, but at one point there was a weekly assignment forum called Critical Mass. It's been shelved for the time being and I don't know if it will come back. (Missed it by -that- much.)

2) Even being in school or having a day job, one week to do a page should be plenty, especially if it's just one duty, ie pencilling. If you're serious about getting into the business, speed is essential. It's a skill that's not talked about much. You have to be able to refine your abilities to the point that you can do a page a day or more. As this place progresses, I'd like to focus more on the speed aspect. 1 week per skill set, one month total time. 6 weeks MAX.

3) I think the only person really redoing pages is Deunen. He's the resident master of posting all his sketches until something like a final page is settled on. Most of the time you just post your page and the next guy takes over. A lot of times one person will fill all the duties.

4) These aren't idiotic questions, don't worry. Even the forum's been around for more than a year, and people have been doing these jams for longer, I can count the completed jams without having to take off my shoes, so it's still a process of finding things that work right.

[penciljack]

Critical Mass will return, before too long. There's just a LOT of stuff to iron out with this new forum software, especially with the plans that are in motion, so it's taking some time to get everything where I want it. But yes, Critical Mass will return.

[Deunen]

Welcome to Pencil Jack Saga!

As far as I know anyone can sign up for the jams. When they begin all the pages and duties (pencil, ink, color, or letter) are assigned. I would say sign up only if you are sure you can get your assignment done. The worst thing you can do is sign up for something and then never post or let anyone know how your page is doing. This section isn't about who's better that who. Everyone is just expected to give the best that they got on their assignment . I am only touching up my page right now because I forgot something that CMW said was going to be a big part of the story later on.

I personally post sketches and stuff because I feel it keeps the thread alive, informs the organizer of the project on my progress, and hopefully inspires or informs the other artists involved on the project.

You may want to get your feet wet in the Proving Ground section where there are challenges going on. They are usually pinup style images.

Deun

[Saga]

thanks for replying so quickly everybody

Duenen i didnt mean to imply that you were redoing pages because you didnt think they were good. I've been lurking quite alot and saw your posts. i think they are very good. I can also see that they are drawings that you are useing to get to your desired final. I just know in the past I've come into situations that i've wanted to do something over after seeing what quality others have brought to the table. I don't worry about that these days but when i first started drawing ,seriously, about a year or two ago it had bothered me alot.

Thanks for clearing up my questions Xadrian. :) Gives me an idea of what would be expected.

Critical mass sounds like the place i would do most of my posting until i was confident that i could keep my word in fusion. But dont hurry on my account Penciljack. I dont think i will be able to get in on any jams or prooving grounds stuff soon anyway. My school, VanArts :) , starts on Tuesday. First few weeks will be nuts.

Thanks again for the quick responses. This place seems friendly. :)

[Deunen]

I hear what your saying about wanting to go back and redo stuff. I think everyone has felt that way. I've learned to look at your old stuff, realize you did the best you could, learn from it and move on. oh and thx for the compliment :)

Good Luck at school.

[Ra Havok]

About the critical mass:

The one thing that, according to me, made it worth doing the assignments was that you could count on some THOROUGH and GOOD critique. I'll gladly drop Loston's name.

So, unless there are people that are willing to give themselves a 100% when it comes to letting the 'students' know where they stand, I don't think Critical mass could ever be a success.


By the way, I'm all for in-depth C&c. I think everyone knows this. I wouldn't mind helping out if Critical mass were to be defibrilated.

[xadrian]

I wanted to drag some thoughts over here from the Incomplete thread and have them open for discussion (*gasp*, the thread title)

1) Incorporating the Writing Lab somehow. This has been discussed before but a conclusion was not reached.

2) This forum is for fun and exercise, but the projects must still be worth while and well crafted to elicit better participation.

3) I've brought up voting of any kind once before and it didn't go over well. I'm all for nominating a script writer and then getting feedback, yay or nay, a simple poll, but no competition for Who Writes What or Who Draws What.

4) One project at a time. This is good to keep interest at a maximum but participation would be a minimum. Which is more important to you guys? Honestly, it's not like the door's being beaten down to start up projects so cracking down and telling people "Great idea, when the current project is done, it's all yours" is not going to break my heart.

That's all for now.

[Spidey]

The one thing that, according to me, made it worth doing the assignments was that you could count on some THOROUGH and GOOD critique. I'll gladly drop Loston's name.


Not just Loston alone. Most of the time Loston's in depth crit inpired following posters to do the same. What I liked the most about CM is everybody's different take on a project, especially the design ones. I also wouldn't mind helping mod the CM forums.

[Ra Havok]

mod the CM forums.


Let's team-up!

[Spidey]

Team Discovery Channel!
I actually wouldn't mind at all, but obviously completly up to Terry when the CM is up.

[G-man_2000]

I wanted to drag some thoughts over here from the Incomplete thread and have them open for discussion (*gasp*, the thread title)

1) Incorporating the Writing Lab somehow. This has been discussed before but a conclusion was not reached.

2) This forum is for fun and exercise, but the projects must still be worth while and well crafted to elicit better participation.

3) I've brought up voting of any kind once before and it didn't go over well. I'm all for nominating a script writer and then getting feedback, yay or nay, a simple poll, but no competition for Who Writes What or Who Draws What.

4) One project at a time. This is good to keep interest at a maximum but participation would be a minimum. Which is more important to you guys? Honestly, it's not like the door's being beaten down to start up projects so cracking down and telling people "Great idea, when the current project is done, it's all yours" is not going to break my heart.

That's all for now.


Maybe some more reference materials, don’t have to be near prefect like Bruce Lee did for Conan, but a little more than one sketch would help.

[xadrian]

Maybe some more reference materials, don’t have to be near prefect like Bruce Lee did for Conan, but a little more than one sketch would help.


Could you give me an example of something that lacked reference?

[Deunen]

There was a lot of reference material available for the Indiana Jones project. There aren't alot of refrences for the Ironman project but that particular project is kind of loose and I look at it as a work in progress /just for fun. If you need a particular reference, I've noticed if you just ask people will definetly help you out. I've only been involved with the Indy and Ironman projects so I don't know how the others were handled.

I back the idea of having the Writing Lab involved. I say just let them worry about the story side of things. Maybe have Xadrian speak for the Fusion section, throwing in opions/ideas. I would imagine the Fusion section worrying about assigning the jobs, getting pages done. I think this would spark more interest in the Writing Lab because there would be hope that a particular story would get drawn.

[Bruce Lee]

One of the things about these jams that will always be the rub is participation. There's always going to be the risk of someone dropping out, disappearing off the planet (or at least the web), or finding themselves too busy with other things to complete their share of the workload. It's a given. This isn't work for hire or for publishing, so the likelihood is to be expected. That said, I think there are many things that can be done to improve participation.

One thing would be to simplify the jam. Fewer pages, fewer designs, fewer people involved. That will help keep the chaos down, and things rolling along. Another thing to consider is to give the editor of the jam the right/power to refuse talent. (ie: make it known that the editor has the ability to do so, with provocation. If someone failed to get their work in on a previous jam, then the editor/co-ordinator of the jam should have the right to refuse an individual's participation on a current jam. I'm not saying this should be something that is automatic, but it would be something of a motivator in getting the work turned in on time, and would help keep current jams moving along at a good pace.

Another thing to do is to keep communication going. On the Conan jam, I frequently called for "meetings" (pow wows) via yahoo messenger chats. This kept everyone in the loop on where things were. Though this sort of thing isn't necessary, it's probably a good idea to keep in touch with all the participants as to their progress.

To keep things moving along, an editor might assign a series of deadlines. Maybe the page layout is due in a week to be subject for approval, followed by finished pencils due for approval the following week. If the penciller's first deadline is blown, that may be a good indication that the second deadline is going to be blown too, so it's probably a good idea for the editor to hedge his bets. He should already be planning a back-up replacement penciller, to take over should the original penciller blow his second deadline. To save time, the editor could already ask the potential replacement to be working on his or her layout. A layout isn't that much work to ask of anyone (at least it shouldn't be a big investment of time), so even if the original penciller comes through and makes his original deadline, the potential replacement penciller is only out one layout. It's no great tragedy. But having that layout ready will really be a leap out of the starting gate should the original penciller fail his or her duty.

A deadline is a deadline. It should be enforced, or it means nothing. Without enforced deadlines, things WONT get done in a timely manner. Simple fact.

The last thing I'll bring up is: subject matter. Let's face it, the more popular the subject matter, the better your participation is going to be on these projects. It's common sense. Before starting these jams, it's something to consider right off the bat.

Anyway, I hope to find some time to launch a new jam sometime in the near future. Right now, work is keeping me busy, and I don't have the proper time to dedicate to such a project. That's me being realistic. Before anyone attempt to participate, they should evaluate their schedules and weigh whether or not they have time enough to accomplish the tasks that might be asked of them. Even if a jam might be the coolest jam ever, if you don't have the time for it, you shouldn't kid yourself. THERE WILL BE OTHER JAMS AND OPPORTUNITIES TO PARTAKE IN THE COOLNESS. You'll only be holding others back if you go in thinking you can somehow get it done in spite of your current responsibilities. IF YOU DON'T HAVE THE TIME, DON'T SIGN UP! It's something that should be taken into considered by everyone who is thinking of participating. Be REALISTIC.

Later all,

Loston

[penciljack]

About the critical mass:

The one thing that, according to me, made it worth doing the assignments was that you could count on some THOROUGH and GOOD critique. I'll gladly drop Loston's name.

So, unless there are people that are willing to give themselves a 100% when it comes to letting the 'students' know where they stand, I don't think Critical mass could ever be a success.


By the way, I'm all for in-depth C&c. I think everyone knows this. I wouldn't mind helping out if Critical mass were to be defibrilated.

This really isn't the forum for this, but IMO our mistakes with the first few iterations of Critical Mass was precisely that we held up moderator criticism as some sort of "prize." That's not going to happen in the future. We're going to focus on simpler projects and not take any sort of "school" approach. Plus, it's going to be more member oriented as opposed to moderator oriented.

[penciljack]

1) Incorporating the Writing Lab somehow. This has been discussed before but a conclusion was not reached.
Part of the appeal of many of the "original" Art Jams was that the participants could "pick" what they got to draw, within reason. That was good, to an extent, but you pretty much knew which Jams were gonna get the most participants.

I think we will involve the Writing Lab somehow, and we'll probably rethink our "focus" for these projects a bit. For example ... can a "project" not feature a single writer, inker, penciller, letterer and colorist? Do we have to have one each per every page?


3) I've brought up voting of any kind once before and it didn't go over well. I'm all for nominating a script writer and then getting feedback, yay or nay, a simple poll, but no competition for Who Writes What or Who Draws What.
I'm not sure how I feel about voting yet. But I agree I don't like the idea of competitions. I think that's counterproductive in a forum that is deliberately ant-competition and is instead collaborative.


One project at a time. This is good to keep interest at a maximum but participation would be a minimum. Which is more important to you guys? Honestly, it's not like the door's being beaten down to start up projects so cracking down and telling people "Great idea, when the current project is done, it's all yours" is not going to break my heart.
I don't want to limit the projects in this manner. My heart's desire is to see a forum FULL of ongoing projects. I think we just need to fine tune our project subject matter and our processes.

I think I've said it before, and though I don't want to drag a current project down, I'll say it again - we probably want to avoid the overuse of "alternate universe" or "redesigned" characters. For example, this "Iron Men vs. the Zombie Jedi" thing was probably something we should have avoided. As Loston hinted, having to work out too many noodly details can suck the fun and momentum right out of a project.

[Bruce Lee]

This really isn't the forum for this, but IMO our mistakes with the first few iterations of Critical Mass was precisely that we held up moderator criticism as some sort of "prize." That's not going to happen in the future. We're going to focus on simpler projects and not take any sort of "school" approach. Plus, it's going to be more member oriented as opposed to moderator oriented.


I've got to say that I'm very curious to see if your new incarnation of CM fairs any better than your past versions. To call the past versions of CM "mistakes" though, is absolutely unfair, I think, and feels a little like a jab thrown my way. In my opinion, the board was very much a success, even if you might think differently on the matter, Terry. People learned something, and fun was had. I don't know how anyone could ask for more than that. It's your dog and pony show though, and you know what you're after in terms of "success." I wish you whatever success you feel was missing.

Loston

[Bruce Lee]

This really isn't the forum for this, but IMO our mistakes with the first few iterations of Critical Mass was precisely that we held up moderator criticism as some sort of "prize." That's not going to happen in the future. We're going to focus on simpler projects and not take any sort of "school" approach. Plus, it's going to be more member oriented as opposed to moderator oriented.


I've got to say that I'm very curious to see if your new incarnation of CM fairs any better than the previous versions. But to call the past versions of CM "mistakes" though, is rather unfair to the moderators and people who participated there. Some of us really gave it our all making CM work, and for a while, it did work. What can I say? I always did take CM personally. It might have indeed been "Phil's baby", but I did much of the diaper changing and feeding, as I recall, and I remember people having fun from week to week and learning something along the way. I don't know how you could ask for more than that.

Anyway, the old CM is in the past. The new CM is waiting up ahead. I hope it has the kind of success you're looking for.

Loston

[Bryan E.Warner]

Dear Fellow Creators
On these up and comming projects,are they strickly digitally done,or is a more traditional way happening,
just wondering,the artist I'm around do a lot of next day delivery/ Fed-X,
Blessings!
Bryan E.Warner

[Popninja]

I think I've said it before, and though I don't want to drag a current project down, I'll say it again - we probably want to avoid the overuse of "alternate universe" or "redesigned" characters. For example, this "Iron Men vs. the Zombie Jedi" thing was probably something we should have avoided. As Loston hinted, having to work out too many noodly details can suck the fun and momentum right out of a project.

I couldn't agree more. And, even though I did end up participating in a half-hearted attempt at keeping it afloat, I still think it should be shut down. I can't think of one reason why it should be left open. Put the kibosh on it and let's start with a clean slate.

[xadrian]

Bryan - it's generally not the way we do things, but there's no rule against it. If you want to pencil something then spend the money to get it photocopied and shipped to an inker, or colorist, that you're call.

Pop - Believe me, I want to SOOO bad, but every time a new piece of art comes in, I reset the clock. If the project goes a week without an update (meaning someone posting something complete, not a sketch) then I'll close it out so we can start something new.

PJ - many jams at once, huh? Yeah that would be great. Wanna start one? ;)

[Deunen]

I couldn't agree more. And, even though I did end up participating in a half-hearted attempt at keeping it afloat, I still think it should be shut down. I can't think of one reason why it should be left open. Put the kibosh on it and let's start with a clean slate.

I agree. :( I would like to get started on new projects already. Can't wait for scripts.

[xadrian]

I agree. :( I would like to get started on new projects already. Can't wait for scripts.

Well, CW and Frost and you (and now Pop) are the main/only contributors. It's up to you guys. If you're all in agreement, let me know.

[penciljack]

I've got to say that I'm very curious to see if your new incarnation of CM fairs any better than the previous versions. But to call the past versions of CM "mistakes" though, is rather unfair to the moderators and people who participated there. Some of us really gave it our all making CM work, and for a while, it did work. What can I say? I always did take CM personally. It might have indeed been "Phil's baby", but I did much of the diaper changing and feeding, as I recall, and I remember people having fun from week to week and learning something along the way. I don't know how you could ask for more than that.

Anyway, the old CM is in the past. The new CM is waiting up ahead. I hope it has the kind of success you're looking for.

Loston
Loston, please re-read my comments. I did not call past versions of CM "mistakes," rather I referred to mistakes that were made with the past versions.

[penciljack]

PJ - many jams at once, huh? Yeah that would be great. Wanna start one? ;)

Heh heh heh - I might do that.

[Bruce Lee]

Terry,

I reread your post several times before deciding to post. Perhaps it's just the way it was worded. I couldn't decide how you meant what you wrote. I'm glad you don't see our (the mods) past efforts as "mistakes", and are just interested in trying a new direction with CM. That's really good to know. For a minute there, I just wasn't sure. Life would be so much easier on these forums if we had the advantage of body language, etc to help carry across our communications. Sorry for misinterpretting.

Loston

[amadarwin]

The old CM: I never had time to participate, but that was one of my favorite boards for a long time. Phil and Loston did a great job with crits, not to mention some of the other participants were free to crit as well. I enjoyed watching some of the participants develop. The assignments did start getting repetitive towards the end, but I didn't mind. Just 'cuz you do a thing once doesn't mean you master it...I can't wait til the new one goes up so I can (time permitting) do some assignments and develop my skills.

ART JAMS: This is a tough one. It's one thing to get volunteers, but it's a whole other beast getting them to finish in a reasonable deadline. Here's what I propose:

step1: The prospective editor (overseer, whichever :D ) solicits interest from people to doing said jam.

step2: Editor must get some sort of 'approval' from PJ to do the jam and a overall deadline assigned for the jam to be completed by PJ (so the editor knows what kind of deadline to set with his volunteers)

step3: The jam is then open for volunteers

step4: The assignments will be doled out however the editor plans on doing it.

step5: editor gets writers to write said jam with a set deadline based on the overall deadline he is given by PJ.

step6: Editor then gets the artist volunteers to do their mojo with the written work with having the most important ref's on hand for the artist to work from. Again giving them a deadline based on their responsibilities and the overall deadline.

step7: Complete the project before the overall deadline or risk having the jam shut down.

Here's my proposed risk/reward system: Some sort of indicator when you click the persons name of how reliable they are. Like right now, if I click someones name I see "View Public Profile" "send a PM to" "Visit Homepage" etc...towards the bottom should be a "Completes writing assignments % of the time" or "Completes Drawing (or Inking, or coloring, etc..) assignments % of the time" with further clicking giving the actual stats, like completed 1 of 2 assignments and so on. That way editors know how much work to assign to that person. There's no negative or positive feedback, just stats. Stats only the editor has a right to assign (which would just be a tic of 'completed' or 'not completed'), and when the project is done, the editor has that control from the beginning of the project til a week after everything's done. After that, the control is revoked and given to the next editor. That way people not able to make their commitments should take a little more responsibility to check their schedule before committing themselves to a jam.

Obviously there are some flaws in this method and possibly a lot more headaches for PJ and the editors involved, but in order to get things going smoothly, some guidelines must be set and rigidly followed in order to make things work. Anarchy is great, but it doesn't get much done...

[eldwin]

What is the subject matter of the next jam?

[CWmax]

Well, CW and Frost and you (and now Pop) are the main/only contributors. It's up to you guys. If you're all in agreement, let me know.

Everyone made a good last ditch effort - Popninja really did a good quick job- and actually all of the pages are penciled...but I can't see that it's worth the struggle to continue...Shoot it down!

[xadrian]

ART JAMS: This is a tough one...

Indeed it is, and I like some of your suggestions. I could go on and on about processes and what not but I'll refrain from being long winded.

Here are, in no particular order, some points I'd like to discuss/implement. We've already got another jam started, so if we can apply these to that one, great, if not, next time. Quick and dirty.


5 page limit
1 week per skill set, 6 weeks for total project
Editor (EIC) must provide web space for final project.
Team members must be able to check in once a day for any updates.
Ideally pages should have one person doing each skill.
Ideas must be garnered from the public forum
No prewritten scripts
No alternate characters
EIC can't be the writer
If a project is not updated at least once a week, or it goes past 6 weeks, it is shut down.
If a team member cannot be contacted within 72 hours, they are replaced by an alternate.
Alternates that volunteer must be aware of the compressed deadlines.
EIC must approve/greenlight scripts, pages, character sketches.
Thumbnailed pages to get approval are ok, don't continually update with every panel adjustment.
Don't volunteer if you can't do a page in a week.
Project approval must go through a moderator, either myself or penciljack at this point.


This may seem a little strict now, but the past process of winging it doesn't seem to work.

I'd also like to veto at this time any voting for anything. This isn't a competition, but majority does rule. If you like something, say so. EIC's shouldn't put cover art, page duties, script writing or anything up for grabs. As appealing as it sounds, we don't want to drag the Proving Ground into this. At most the public forum should be able to discuss what they want to see as the story in general, then let the EIC do their job of finding a script writer and be done with it. This is also volunteer based, if someone wants to do something, they should be able to, regardless of their skill level. This is a fun, learning oriented board, not a submissions forum.

Reputation Points - There is talk of using these as a tool to know who can come through and who can't. That means that the EIC of any project has to OK volunteers. This can lead to some bad blood, but at this point it's also moot because you can't actually SEE what people have said about other people, just what's been said about you. The only thing I can think is if enough people give you good or bad points, it'll change the caption on your Rep Box.

Discuss.

[G-man_2000]

Any body that finishes a project should definitely get extra reputation points.

[foxmerquise8]

Reputation Points - There is talk of using these as a tool to know who can come through and who can't. That means that the EIC of any project has to OK volunteers. This can lead to some bad blood, but at this point it's also moot because you can't actually SEE what people have said about other people, just what's been said about you. The only thing I can think is if enough people give you good or bad points, it'll change the caption on your Rep Box.

I'm pretty sure Penciljack said Rep Points don't matter, I'm pretty sure most people don't even know or care about their rep points, and they would probably end up getting rep points from their peers in their project anyway. Not trying to sound sassy.

[xadrian]

Right now they don't matter mainly because you can't see what other people have written, but if an EIC of a jam had access to that, they could immediately decide if the guy with 100 posts and negative feedback will get the cover pencils or the guy with 100 posts and positive feedback.

It's like bonuses. No one's saying you can't post or be part of it, but the cherry jobs, like maybe an important page or cover or something, should be given to those who have proven they can step up.

Right now it doesn't mean much.

[Bruce Lee]

I think it's important for the EIC to use his/her judgement when considering volunteers. I personally feel like folks with a past history of choking on projects shouldn't get first crack at choice jobs (though I DO think everyone is entitled to a second chance). That makes sense to me. The projects need to be done in a timely manner, or they just go nowhere. Projects should be about fun of course, but they're also about pulling your share of the weight. It's a team effort, with individual obligations. There's a contract or sorts. If you agree to do something, you've made a verbal (in this case, written) contract. You're wasting everyone's time if you don't hold up your end of things.

Loston

[penciljack]

If the next Jam gets completed in with these time restrictions, I'll provide the Web space.

[xadrian]

If the next Jam gets completed in with these time restrictions, I'll provide the Web space.

Thank goodness. ;)

[Cuddly]

The only chink in the armor is the compressed timeline for alternates. I know that without it, there's no chance of hitting the 6 week finish schedule coz if you give the alternates the same 1 week allocation, the schedule's just gonna slide away.

Any point in getting say, 2 alternates per task on standby right from the get-go? Meaning if you're a designated alternate, you should get familiar with the script, know the reference material, designs, colors, whatever. So when you have to step in for someone, you don't start cold.

All I can say is the alternates will need to be doubly committed coz they'll need to have digested the script for *every* page in case they need to step in on a random page. And when they do get called in, they're only gonna have about half the time to do it in.

With 5 pages (and a cover, presumably), you'll need 8 people per task. 6 confirmed and 2 alternates. I dunno if that's too many people to coordinate.

Just a thought.

[Deunen]

I'd like to throw my hat in for an alternate position. I check the forum everyday and I have the free time to handle anything that pops up. I can pencil, ink and if I can find a good tutorial, letter. The stuff I work on during the day can definetly be put on pause without any problems. The only project with a deadline I am working on at moment is the Rob Leifeld Redesign over in the Proving Ground.

[xadrian]

Being an alternate in the past has generally fallen to someone who wants to be a part of the jam but came on too late. This idea of having a standby or two or 12 may be harder to work than just getting the primary members to complete their pages. With the timeline being set, they do have less time to work.

I don't want to keep throwing real world scenarios in here as this is a place that should be kept as fun as possible, even with all these guidelines, but I'd like to point out that a monthly book means a page a day or more and print deadlines don't want for you to move or lose your internet access.

Having a cadre of alternates for a jam, or for all jams would be great, if, like Deunen said, they are people that are on the board all the time, and can, at a moments notice (not 3 days) pick up a page and crank it out.

I'd like to keep this around as the exception to the rule. The 3 jams I've worked on only had 1 or 2 alternate pages, most of the time it was hard enough to fill up the needed duties on any given jam.

[Ra Havok]

The one and only *real* problem is people just not doing their part in time. (or at all).

If you know the artists are up for it, there won't be any problems. But how do you know that, huh?


...

[Hangman]

u start off with the artist u know r consistent........

im not sure but Deunen seems to have been consistent.....I turned mine in at acceptable time......u did your part in the Indie project......


just start there....




seriously....this part of the forum is getting rediculous......Xadrian asked for an update in the other thread like 4 days ago and he still hasnt gotten a response.....


i say pick two char. have someone from the writers forum write something with just them and start from there......id even go as far as getting everyones AIMs so u know when everyone is online and U get an update on the spot

[Deunen]

Thx Hangman. I personally have been waiting for an update from Verezzi on the Wolvie/Nazi idea. I am ready to go as soon as an idea is chosen. I am also making a site for the unfinished Ironman/Jedi Zombie project. I collected the pages and have been darkening them in PS. I plan on making a cover image for it too.

I am working on a something for the Proving Ground too so I've been kind of busy. If I had the time to organize something I would. I had an idea for a project but haven't really fleshed it out. Here goes.

I wanted to do an exercise in sequential storytelling. No superheroes or big battles. I imagined a guy getting to his apartment and finding the door slightly open. He peeks in. Seems clear. He quietly goes inside. We see signs that someone is there. This would totally up to the artist to experiment with. Open Fridge? cabinets, papers, whatever. In another room he hears papers rustling. He peaks in. A cat is holding up papers reading them. The cat turns. "Who sent you! Who are you working for!" our hero shouts as he dashes for the cat. Chase around the apartment ensues. I want the cat to be drawn like a realistic cat only handled as if he is a human. For instance, stumbling, looking back worried, getting pinned in a corner shivering, flinging things.

And that's the basic idea. Its something I wanted to do for myself but I think it'd be a good exercise for all aspiring comic artists. The only problem is the room itself. I would have to design a whole apartment so all the pencilers are consistent.

ok I'm goin back to the drawing table now
Deun

[Hangman]

i think ur idea would be good for sequential practice and a change from the norm.....but Im not sure if it would get ppl excited....we're having problems motivating ppl to do these projects so we really need to come up with something that everyone would enjoy...sadly enough Im not sure that everyone would be down with doing something that isnt superheroes or action.....

[Popninja]

i think ur idea would be good for sequential practice and a change from the norm.....but Im not sure if it would get ppl excited....we're having problems motivating ppl to do these projects so we really need to come up with something that everyone would enjoy...sadly enough Im not sure that everyone would be down with doing something that isnt superheroes or action.....

Oh, sure they would. The problem we have now, especially with people who can get the job done, is that everyone is sort of gunshy. If you are a person who can commit, who's to say now that once you've put in your time, the project won't get shut down because of people who can't get the job done. And, if you're a person who consistently bails on your commitments, now that you've been busted, you're not going to sign on either.

No, what we need is for someone who everyone knows is good to come up with a good idea and have someone else with a solid rep write it, and then just get one person who has good art skills to commit to just one page and then anyone and everyone will take an interest. It happened with the Crom jam, and it can happen again.

[Hangman]

and if u tell me that Bruce Lee is going to b in charge of the next one Id agree.......but so far hes the only one that has really been able to get a Jam in at a decent amount of time.


I also recall that for the indy jam, that RaHavok was pretty involved in it. He has always seems to me like one of the top guns of PJ yet the indy jam didnt quite work.

Im not saying having someone like RaHavok wont work.....Im just saying so far there hasnt been a formula that surely works. maybe if someone like Warlockss,inkthinker,wya, etc ....were in then maybe it might work

but many of these artists and those at their level dont have the time for a jam that's going to take a month or so if done right

[Popninja]

We're also dealing with a lot of individuals who can talk the talk, but just can't walk the walk (WOOOO!).

The reality is that the contribution of one individual doing one task, penciling or inking or coloring or lettering, is really very small. It really shouldn't take more than a few days tops to pencil or ink or color or letter a page, and that's even if you have other obligations. If your slate is clean, it shouldn't take more than a day.

I still say it would take one person, with a really cool idea, to get a good jam rolling. And then, of course, another person to keep the whip cracking. But, again, I think now with the threat of a jam being closed due to people not coming through, it's going to be difficult to get people who can get the job done to commit the time. When I look at the Indy jam, and the people who did contribute their time, they don't get that back and they don't have something to show for their time. The threat of having your time flushed down the turdcoaster just will not draw in good, competent people.

[Hangman]

i would say that maybe the best bet is to have the person with the cool idea and the person who will b cracking the whip(hopefully one of these ppl will be one of the ppl looked up to by other PJers), and have them talk to the ppl in charge of previous Jams. That way they have knowledge of ppl that come through and those ppl can be contacted. Once u have the dependable artists locked, u can build around them with the unknowns.

i think there should b little room for leniancy from the Jam leaders. If your going to b late is shouldnt be for more than a couple of days and there should be constant contact with the rest of the Jam. I think once the reliable artist come through, some of the unknowns will too and whatever spots are abandoned can be filled by the reliables and unknowns that did their share and want to see the Jam finished

[xadrian]

I'm also considering a suggestion to have volunteers send a PM or email if they want in on the jam. It's a small thing, but the extra effort involved can indicate they are serious. That and it's easier to keep track if you don't have to filter through the thread to see what you've missed.

As far as shutting them down if they've stalled, yeah it sucks for those who did put in the time and it's unfair to them. It's unfair to the rest of the forum and board to have these linger like this, getting all the focus and doing nothing.

And they aren't dying completely. They have a home just as much as the finished ones (see the sticky about incomplete jams) so as long as they have webspace somewhere, they are just as noticeable as the finished ones. They aren't as polished, but I haven't deleted any images yet...

I think having shorter jams and not letting them linger will draw more attention and get people to want to be involved again. Up until now they see the same thread updated day in and day out by the same people and they have no excitement for it. We have to get a few quick, solid, finished projects done before we venture again into the longer 8, 9, 10 page projects.

I agree with Pop, drawing a page shouldn't take you a month. If you don't think you can't do a page in a couple days, don't volunteer. The mentallity is too much like the Arena (Proving Ground) in which you can volunteer even though you may not be able to finish it out.

There's a lot to this, and I'm glad you guys are talking about it.

[Hangman]

this part of the forum often goes days without a post. To me it often seems like it's dying a slow death. That's a shame because this could be a lot of fun for a lot of ppl,artists and fans alike.

I think that the new poject thread by Verezzi should be closed since it's been dead for a while now and the initial proposal there wasnt favored by many.

I think the writers of this forum should be approached to come up with a 4-5 pg story. This story should feature maybe 1-2 recognizable chars. that demand little to no costume designs. The story itself should also feature as little design work as possible. We should be focusing on telling stories rather than complicated pojects that demand weeks of new char and settings design. Once we have a few simple Jams in the bag then we can try to do bigger and more challenging projects.

I think having these smaller Jams done will let us build a small group of artists that will be the regulars of the Jam and will keep things moving. It really isnt that hard to draw a page and once the artists see their page and then the jam completed, they'll want to do more Jams that really only require 1-2 pgs from them. 1-2 pgs isnt really asking too much from an artist.

[xadrian]

I couldn't agree more, on all counts.

I don't have a lot going on right now, I'll start up another jam soon and see how all these points we've discussed work out. If it goes smooth, we'll have somewhat of a process, if not we'll reassemble later.

[Ra Havok]

If I like the project, you may consider me in. and you know I'm good for it.

We just need to find some artists that will deliver the goods.

[Bryan E.Warner]

With Work And The project I'm currently working on,My Plate is full,( works been slamming me, ) I'm hoping some time in the future to be able to partisapate.
Blessings!
Bryan E.Warner

Hey I just heard on the radio that Superman ( Chirstopher Reeves ) has just Died.Bummer.

[G-man_2000]

I’m in, been doing allot of freelance work this year and been consistent with dead lines.

[cabralsoth]

i have always finished all mine, if you get another one started and need an artist PM me and i would be glad to jump aboard!

[Cuddly]

Yeah, PM me too. We're in the midst of packing and may be moving in the next month or so, but PM or e-mail me and if I'm free, I'll do it. And if I say I'll do it, I will.

[Hangman]

im working on my own project but I can certainly squeeze in a page into my schedule...the sooner the better seeing as how we have some ppl excited to help out

[xadrian]

Done (http://www.penciljack.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52788).

Let's be good this time people.

[Ugga Bugga]

I'd be happy to write another script for the next project if ya'll will have me.

Perhaps we can float some ideas for the next project, so that a script can be ready, once the artwork for Moon Knight vs. Ghost is done.

[chungking2399]

wanted to know what the next Jam will be, I was very interested in trying out

[Ugga Bugga]

My understanding is that we are trying to finish the current one.

We are finishing the inking stage, and will have about one week left for the coloring stage. Then additional time for lettering (I guess).

You can follow the progress at the Moon Knight vs. Ghost thread.

[Ugga Bugga]

I would like to offer up my X-men hanging script for the next jam

It appears here (http://www.penciljack.com/forum/showthread.php?p=554579&posted=1#post554579).


If it is agreed that we use the script, I would like to build in some C + C time for the script, so that the majority is happy with it. (We won't please everyone I'm certain)

[cabralsoth]

dude!!! i totally dug that script, i am saving it, one day i may want to take a stab at it...

[Ugga Bugga]

dude!!! i totally dug that script, i am saving it, one day i may want to take a stab at it...


Thank you. I had a lot of fun writing it.

[Hangman]

Sorry but I'm just not digging this at all....about the only person that u got right was Cyclops(and only for the 1st few pgs) the X-men when having fun do not behave like this.....the only good thing thats good about this script is the fact that u change locations a few time and that allows the artist to flex his muscles...sorry but I say pass.

[Ugga Bugga]

Sorry but I'm just not digging this at all....about the only person that u got right was Cyclops(and only for the 1st few pgs) the X-men when having fun do not behave like this.....the only good thing thats good about this script is the fact that u change locations a few time and that allows the artist to flex his muscles...sorry but I say pass.

That's cool. I have gotten interesting feedback both here, and on other forums. Some feedback says I got the characters bang on, and others say I missed the mark completely. It was about the characters having a few drinks and letting loose.

I entirely see the characters doing this. Others don't.

The offer for the script stands if others want to use it. If not, that's cool.

[xadrian]

I'd rather have the script written after the idea is formed by the group rather than run off a script that's already written.


...even though one member will be charged with writing the script, the theme and genre and characters must be decided upon by the group before the script is written.

Thanks for your interest, you're very earnest.

[Ugga Bugga]

I'd rather have the script written after the idea is formed by the group rather than run off a script that's already written.



Thanks for your interest, you're very earnest.

I think this may be the first time in my life anyone has ever referred to me as earnest.

I wrote the X-men script for someone who wanted a portfolio piece. He decided to work on something else mid project, so this script has been sitting around since then.

The offer stands for the use of the script.

One thing that should be done this time around, is to work in script C + C time. (And C + C time for everything else as well).

I'm not sure that "the fastest jam" should be the goal. Rather, a jam, of the highest quality possible, in a reasonable amount of time" should be the goal.

[xadrian]

I'm not sure that "the fastest jam" should be the goal. Rather, a jam, of the highest quality possible, in a reasonable amount of time" should be the goal.

Well I'm all for any ideas and other people doing jams. Keep in mind it took us 6 weeks to do 5 pages. To me, a week to do a drawing is reasonable. The difference in quality I'm assuming would be actually having designs of costumes, environment, and greenlighting pages for continuity. It's fine if someone would like to do that, I will say it's been tried and hasn't really worked.

To keep this interesting, I've made the choice to do these fast. Churn them out, get new ones going, keep involvement high. However, there's nothing stopping anyone from organizing and running it however they want. I would make the sole suggestion of giving the entire project a deadline, like 3 months. If it can't be done it that time, don't drag it on.

Carry on.

[Cuddly]

Ugga, I'm with Hangman on this. I'm not really digging the script. I don't see the X-Men behaving that way, really. It's waaay out of character for me. I really like the idea of a "downtime" script, as opposed to one where the X-Folk are in action (again). But they need to remain true to their characters and I don't think they have here. Sorry, dude.

Xadrian, the 3 month maximum thing is a good idea. The editor would have to be sort of a project manager in that case. Given a be-all-end-all deadline by the mod, the team has to deliver the goods come hell or high-water on the agreed date. Or the whole thing gets canned no matter what stage it's at (though it'd be a shame if it was at lettering at that point :D )

[Ugga Bugga]

Ugga, I'm with Hangman on this. I'm not really digging the script. I don't see the X-Men behaving that way, really. It's waaay out of character for me. I really like the idea of a "downtime" script, as opposed to one where the X-Folk are in action (again). But they need to remain true to their characters and I don't think they have here. Sorry, dude.

:D )

No worries Cuddly,

The response to this script has been almost literally split down the middle. Half saying it is right out of character, half saying bang on. (or that the humor allows one to forgive the out of characterness)

It was always an "out there" script, really written for the purpose of giving an artist an opportunity to draw some cool things.

This is truly how I see them all hanging, but understand that others would not see them acting so silly.

I have the script, sitting there doing nothing, so I wanted to offer it up.

If the crew decides to go in a different direction, no worries.

[Ugga Bugga]

Well I'm all for any ideas and other people doing jams. Keep in mind it took us 6 weeks to do 5 pages. To me, a week to do a drawing is reasonable. The difference in quality I'm assuming would be actually having designs of costumes, environment, and greenlighting pages for continuity. It's fine if someone would like to do that, I will say it's been tried and hasn't really worked.

To keep this interesting, I've made the choice to do these fast. Churn them out, get new ones going, keep involvement high. However, there's nothing stopping anyone from organizing and running it however they want. I would make the sole suggestion of giving the entire project a deadline, like 3 months. If it can't be done it that time, don't drag it on.

Carry on.

Xadrian,

I loved the way you ran the last jam. The only thing that I would recommend, is a little time built in for C + C and revision. Maybe three days at each stage.

Plus, review and input on the script, before it is committed. There is no doubt in my mind that some C + C on the Moon Knight script would have improved it.

[Popninja]

Ugga, let me just say that as a reader of the X-Men comics for well over 25 years, that script is far far FAAAAR from bang on. I too would enjoy doing an X-Men downtime jam, but not with this script. Way too many uncharacteristic actions.

I'm on the fence in regards to just banging out jam after jam. I think that these jams could be great learning experiences as well, and in order to do that, we can't just take a page from Joe Schmoe and say "good job" even though the page needs tons of work. I remember Loston, I believe, asking for thumbnails of how a page was going to be set up on the Crom jam. I could be wrong about that, though. That could help in the process of coming up with better pages.

I dunno, there are a lot of kinks to work out, but at the same time, you just want to do a jam and have some fun. For me, personally, the fun is being taken out of these jams so far because the scripts are just plain awful (sorry Ugga). This last one wasn't as bad as that vomitus Iron Man Jedi script, but it wasn't really good either.

A great script would make the whole difference in how these jams play out.

[Ugga Bugga]

Ugga, let me just say that as a reader of the X-Men comics for well over 25 years, that script is far far FAAAAR from bang on. I too would enjoy doing an X-Men downtime jam, but not with this script. Way too many uncharacteristic actions.



C'mon Man, your bringing down my 50% average ;)

[CWmax]

... This last one wasn't as bad as that vomitus Iron Man Jedi script, but it wasn't really good either.




Grrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!! :mad:

[Deunen]

I liked the script. I admit that at first I was put off because some things did seem out of character but I quickly got over it and just enjoyed how fun it was. It was a breath of fresh air to read an X-men story that is so unique.

[Popninja]

I liked the script. I admit that at first I was put off because some things did seem out of character but I quickly got over it and just enjoyed how fun it was. It was a breath of fresh air to read an X-men story that is so unique.

Unique in its absurdity.

I like the idea of them having fun, but a guy who has been through everything Wolverine has been through, roughly 100 years old or probably more, isn't going to pop his claw through his own arm just to get some giggles from Iceman.

And the whole BAMF thing was undeniably weak. Undeniably.

[Ugga Bugga]

Unique in its absurdity.

I like the idea of them having fun, but a guy who has been through everything Wolverine has been through, roughly 100 years old or probably more, isn't going to pop his claw through his own arm just to get some giggles from Iceman.

And the whole BAMF thing was undeniably weak. Undeniably.

It could have been worse Pop, I originally had him clawing through his brain.

The BAMF thing was really a tool to get them out to the "vild and vonderful places" so the artist I wrote it for, could show his stuff, in diverse settings. It was written to showcase the artist as best I could. The whole standing behind his back thing is admittedly cliche and could undeniably stand some work.

With this script, think drunk with buddies behavior.

Anyhow thanks Deunen, back up to around 50%. :D

The script was never meant to be a serious analysis, of the X-men history. It was meant to be some fun.

[Popninja]

The script was never meant to be a serious analysis, of the X-men history. It was meant to be some fun.

And it doesn't have to be a serious analysis of the X-Men's history, but it does need to at least come close to accurately portraying the characters the way they have been portrayed in the past. You need to know Bishop's history to know he just wouldn't go streaking. You need to know Wolverine's history to know that having fun, for him, is just hanging out and drinking a beer. When he's not kicking back with a beer, he's gutting villains. Putting these people entirely out of character just doesn't work. And I'm speaking only as someone who's read the X-Men for far too long. Anyone coming in without any prior knowledge may find this amusing. I simply do not.

[Ugga Bugga]

And it doesn't have to be a serious analysis of the X-Men's history, but it does need to at least come close to accurately portraying the characters the way they have been portrayed in the past. You need to know Bishop's history to know he just wouldn't go streaking. You need to know Wolverine's history to know that having fun, for him, is just hanging out and drinking a beer. When he's not kicking back with a beer, he's gutting villains. Putting these people entirely out of character just doesn't work. And I'm speaking only as someone who's read the X-Men for far too long. Anyone coming in without any prior knowledge may find this amusing. I simply do not.

Fair enough. (Though I disagree that they would not act this way, particularly when hanging out, and decompressing).

[F!]

Ugga, dude...





that script is teh ghey.

http://img77.exs.cx/img77/4489/k6twinkfrown.gif

[Ugga Bugga]

Is that good or bad?????? :confused:

[cabralsoth]

hey popninja, i have read almost every x-book from almost 100 and up, i understand what you are saying about character seeming out of place, but i felt this was a great, unique take on the group, making them more human then anything.... i felt it is a fresh take on the cast, and i dont feel it is too far fetched from what i have read from claramonts days, hell he had them playing basketball crackin jokes at eachother, this isnt that far off from there...

[F!]

Claremont, bless him, didn't do fart jokes.

[cabralsoth]

*begins to thumb thru old comics* ....shuffle, shuffle.... nope, no fart jokes... but i liked it...lol, if it is always done the same way you do nothing but attract the same crowd, i think a fresh take could be what it needs to attract a bigger crowd... and if not, you can always blame continuity and say we were reading "days from future never to come" :p

[Ugga Bugga]

Claremont, bless him, didn't do fart jokes.

I forgot to work the fart joke into my script. I meant to. Darn it. :p

[F!]

What? What was the whole BAMF thing about then?

[Ugga Bugga]

It wasn't a fart joke, but now that you say it, I can see how you would think it was.

They are just goofing on the noise made by Nightcrawler when he transports.

The whole point of it, was that I was writing the script for an artist for a portfolio piece. I wanted an excuse for him to draw a wide variety of scenes, so he could show his artistic talent, while they transport to the vild and vonderful places.

The characters are gratiutously transported to scenic locations, and the BAMF scene was a way to introduce it.

Remember, they are decompressing, and drinking.

[F!]

It wasn't a fart joke, but now that you say it, I can see how you would think it was.Damn. That was the best bit for me. :o ;)

[Ugga Bugga]

It's the best fart joke I've never written.

[F!]

No, the 'smell of sulphur' line was the best fart joke you've never written.

[Ugga Bugga]

Tru dat !!!!!!!

[Hangman]

how about some fantasy for the next jam?....maybe LOTR or Battle Chasers, a D&D comic(think Drizzt).......?

[cabralsoth]

MMMmmmmmm drizzt.....

[xadrian]

Ideally that's all we'd need for a new jam, an idea and an organizer. Since I'm not going to run the next one, if someone wants to start a fantasy jam, just keep in mind that all I ask is that if after a certain time it's either done or it's done. It seems like everyone has an idea on how to run it, so let's go ahead and try it out. But again, limited time, anything longer than 3 months and I'll swoop in with Walken. That just gives more jams more time later.

[Spidey]

The characters, over or underused shouldn't matter too much as long as the story is well written. It should be the only thing that we should be picky about. Let's not jump on the first script just because its there.

[Ugga Bugga]

To have the best written story, you need to work in time for C + C on the script. It should probably be greenlighted by the forum.

[Popninja]

The characters, over or underused shouldn't matter too much as long as the story is well written. It should be the only thing that we should be picky about. Let's not jump on the first script just because its there.

There's joy in repetition.

[xadrian]

To have the best written story, you need to work in time for C + C on the script. It should probably be greenlighted by the forum.

I disagree, having the forum critique it would be adding tons of needless "Looks good" posts to an already clogged board. If we want new people to participate, we have to get away from the 400 post thread mindset and run leaner and quicker.

That's the Organizer/EIC's job to greenlight things. If you must have that to ensure quality, then it's your job to approve it. Editors don't pawn off editing duties to their pencilers and inkers do they? If they do I wouldn't expect them to have that job for very long.

I don't want this place to turn into another writers lab or sequential lab. You want critiques? Go there. You want to get a script approved? Have the EIC of the project do it. I'm all for member contributions, but I've seen how this nebulous, free-for-all has worked in the past...it hasn't.

[Ugga Bugga]

There's joy in repetition.

Yes, there is joy in repetition :)

[Ugga Bugga]

I disagree, having the forum critique it would be adding tons of needless "Looks good" posts to an already clogged board. If we want new people to participate, we have to get away from the 400 post thread mindset and run leaner and quicker.

That's the Organizer/EIC's job to greenlight things. If you must have that to ensure quality, then it's your job to approve it. Editors don't pawn off editing duties to their pencilers and inkers do they? If they do I wouldn't expect them to have that job for very long.

I don't want this place to turn into another writers lab or sequential lab. You want critiques? Go there. You want to get a script approved? Have the EIC of the project do it. I'm all for member contributions, but I've seen how this nebulous, free-for-all has worked in the past...it hasn't.

Looks Good ;)

I understand what you are saying. You won't please all people. What some think is the best script in the world. others will think suck. Someone has to make a decision. That said, there is some room for communication between artist and writer to improve everything.

[Hangman]

Would anyone b opposed to me writting a Drizzt(from forgotten realms) vs. legolas and gimli story? if enough ppl like the script, I'll post some images of the characters for those who dont know them

[Deunen]

Something fantasy related would be interesting! Although I'm not feeling the LoTR chars. Maybe something original so it doesn't come off as a fanfic. Something with trolls, orcs, elves, sword, bow would be a fun change of pace. Maybe something like a "Test of Manhood" story where a young boy is sent into a dangerous forest to prove he is ready to become a man by surviving the winter or killing some beast. Or a "Punisheresque" vengence story where an "Aragorn/Strider" type character is hunting a pack of goblins or orcs through a series of caves for the murder of his family.

To me something to keep in mind is that since there are multiple artists you want to keep the number of unique characters low but throw in a ton of "ninjas". By that I mean the enemies all look alot alike and are disposable. It gives the story an epic feel while not being too complicated. But that's just my opinion.

[Ugga Bugga]

Someone is going to have to take over Xadrian's job for this one - and make the tough executive decisions that Xadrian made last time.

I would offer, but A) Fantasy is not my thing, and B) The timing is bad for me, as I am working to get the PJU up and running.

(At least the Fantasy that is my thing, is not the same sort of Fantasy we are talking about in this thread).

Xadrian said he was out on this one. Anyone up for the job?

[penciljack]

If Xadrian isn't going to helm this, then it becomes more crucial that the basic premise is tightly focused, so I'd recommend against a Drizzt/Legolas/Gimli story. Sorry Hangman :( It's just that you're going to have to not only come up with designs for Drizz't, you're also going to have to deal with the likenesses of Legolas and Gimli, and that sets it up for a lot of pre-production work, and that inevitably causes a slowdown.

How about just do a standard hero slays the dragon story? Or how about an actual ninja story?

[Hangman]

honestly i thought that i would just provide pictures of Drizzt from the books(the covers from the new books do a wonderful job showing his costume) and I would provide pictures from the movies for the LOTR chars. In my opinion it really isnt any different than dealing with costumes from comics. U see the picture and then u draw the costume. As for likeness(especially for Gimli and Legolas) I think it wouldnt be too much of a problem since elves and dwarves have a distinct look. Their features may not look exactly the same from each artist but My redition of Ghost or Moonknight doesn't look the same as Spidey's or Cabralsoth's. I believe we could do this(and I already started writing a script ..) but if u and/or the rest of the Jam contributers think otherwise than we can just think of something else since I could certainly b wrong about this matter. Ill keep writing my script until I hear ppl opinions....if this doesnt go down I can always just turn this in for the Writing section of the forum :)

[Ugga Bugga]

honestly i thought that i would just provide pictures of Drizzt from the books(the covers from the new books do a wonderful job showing his costume) and I would provide pictures from the movies for the LOTR chars. In my opinion it really isnt any different than dealing with costumes from comics. U see the picture and then u draw the costume. As for likeness(especially for Gimli and Legolas) I think it wouldnt be too much of a problem since elves and dwarves have a distinct look. Their features may not look exactly the same from each artist but My redition of Ghost or Moonknight doesn't look the same as Spidey's or Cabralsoth's. I believe we could do this(and I already started writing a script ..) but if u and/or the rest of the Jam contributers think otherwise than we can just think of something else since I could certainly b wrong about this matter. Ill keep writing my script until I hear ppl opinions....if this doesnt go down I can always just turn this in for the Writing section of the forum :)

Whether this is picked up or not, I'd be happy to provide some C + C on the script when you are done with it.

[penciljack]

Well, again, the idea is for folks to come together and decide the subject matter before the script is written.

I guess the thing I don't understand about these projects is how they always continue to expand the scope. It'd be relatively easy to tell a Spider-Man story. Or a Batman story, or a Gimli story, or even a Drizz't story. Adding more characters only complicates things exponentially.

If you must work on a Drizz't script, think about focusing it on him. We're trying to do a limited page count, and the more characters you have, the less space you have per character.

How about picking ONE fantasy character, and maybe one antagonist, and go from there?

[Hangman]

okay I see what u r saying....ill finish my script and turn it to the writing forum.....if by then there are no new scripts or ideas, Ill try to do a script that focuses on one char :)

[CWmax]

Listen....

I'll helm the new project if you guys agree.

This way we can just get some calls made and get going...

So let's start...
So Far we have...

-Fantasy or LOTR
-Superhero
-Drizzt

Let's pick a subject by 5:00 PM tommorow afternoon...

Until then, please post any other catagory choices you think should be considered or the reasons you think we should pick one of the above choices...

By 5:00 Friday I will make the decision and then we can talk about the script.

Sound good?

Also feel free to post if there is any problem with me playing editor on this one.

Otherwise...check back at 5:00 pm EST on Friday to see what direction we will be taking.

CW

[zombie656er]

how about a last man standing?
like they do it on wizard. i think that could be fun.

[CWmax]

how about a last man standing?
like they do it on wizard. i think that could be fun.

I think I know what you are saying...Have two superheroes fight and the winner moves onto the next jam...

This might be cool...but I think we are still at the stage where we are seeing if we can complete a single jam in a resonable amount of time....

Perhaps we can start a last man standing format here in the jams section, but I ddon't know if we have enough of a proven trak record here to consider long term multi jam threads....

But it's an interesting suggestion....Maybe if we go with a superhero fight this time around we can consider the Last Man Standing idea moving forward.

CW

[Hangman]

How bout Battle Chasers? I about hate Madureira now but thats no reason his chars must suffer.....

[CWmax]

OK....

Well...I think it would be best to stick with the status quo this time around....Unless Hangman and one other person posts that it should be Battle Chasers AND will commit to a page, then...

Let's do the superhero fight....

If we use established characters it will cut down on the confusion....If we can prove ourselves this time around...I think we can start to move into more complex ideas like a fantasy story....

OK...So if anyone is dead set against this please feel free to post....

Otherwise...Post two characters you would like to work with and I will pick two by 5:00 on Saturday....(Tomorrow)

Once that is done we can decide on a scenario and get to work on a script by next week.

So start posting.....and make sure to check back in this weekend.

[Hangman]

Cable and Green Lantern......

[D-chan]

I dont really like cable...maybe its the Liefeld design.

I was really in the mood to draw Spidey.

[CocaKoala]

Spidey would be nice...
vs The Savage Dragon

[zombie656er]

how about a west vs. east fight?...
Hellboy vs. Devilman (http://ic1.deviantart.com/images/large/indyart/games/-HELLBOY-vs-DEVILMAN_-.jpg)
i think that would be a lot of fun to do, but what do you guys think?...

[artwork by kendrick lim]

[Hangman]

i think there are enough Spidey stories out there....theres nothing new about him......and as for Hellboy, hes a cool character but there has already been a Hellboy Jam....I dont mind savage dragon......and i really dont know much about Devilman but Im game

[CWmax]

OK- Let's go GREEN....

Green Lantern vs. Savage Dragon...

OK..Who's up for writing a script...?

Either someone can come up with a cool short (4-5 page) story exploring these characters...

or Maybe we can consider the "last man standing" ...

Writers might think about this....
The two characters wake up trapped in some type of enclosed arena...Whoever has trapped them expects them to fight each other...maybe they both fight or one wants to work together to find a way out...MAybe they fight and there is a winner or they break out of the arena or something.....

We can try having a couple of writers tak a jab at writng a few pages of GL vs SD fighting action and combine them perhaps....

Anyway...WRITERS start your scripts...
Either
Write a cool 4-5 page story about GL vs SD
or
Write up a short 'last man standing' pit fight between GL and SD...

If anyone has any ideas or questions throw them out here....

Otherwise let's get some scripts posted here by WEDNESDAY night....

[Ugga Bugga]

Timing is horrible for me in this one. Good luck. I'll be cheering from the sidelines.

[CocaKoala]

What is the interest like for this one?
Speak up peeps.. I don't mind being a Mod/QA (under CWmax)on this project if people are keen.

Just put together some ref links for you guys, get sketching, scripting and those creative juices flowing..

Savage Dragon...

http://www.savagedragon.com/fb/fblarge/sd01.jpg

The Original Site.. with bio on Erik Larsen the creator
great references hidden in the funnybooks section.
http://www.savagedragon.com/.

Some Savage Bust Anatomy for you..
http://www.savagedragon.com/gallery/bustmenu.htm

great Quicktime VR here of a savage toy..
http://www.spawn.com/toys/product.aspx?product=1610

[penciljack]

I don't want to poo-poo the idea, but I just feel compelled to say ... Green Lantern vs. Savage Dragon seems like it would be a very, very short fight. At least, as I understand the characters.

Maybe think about someone closer to Dragon's level?

[Popninja]

I don't want to poo-poo the idea, but I just feel compelled to say ... Green Lantern vs. Savage Dragon seems like it would be a very, very short fight. At least, as I understand the characters.

Maybe think about someone closer to Dragon's level?

Yeah, I was thinking that too when I first read it. It would be cool to go green on green--Dragon vs. Hulk.

Or Dragon/Superman, which I believe has already been done by Larsen.

[CWmax]

So are you guys saying that The Savage Dragon would be too Strong for Green Lantern?

I thought that GL would be the easy winner with his power ring....But then again, Im not too familiar with SD....

Anyway...It doesn't look like anyone is gonna come up with a script by Wednesday. This Jam might be dead in the water already.....

So - last call- If someone can come up with a scenario for a GL vs SD fight that makes sense , let's see it by Wednesday.....


If not- We can start again.

CW

[Popninja]

So are you guys saying that The Savage Dragon would be too Strong for Green Lantern?

I thought that GL would be the easy winner with his power ring....But then again, Im not too familiar with SD....

Anyway...It doesn't look like anyone is gonna come up with a script by Wednesday. This Jam might be dead in the water already.....

So - last call- If someone can come up with a scenario for a GL vs SD fight that makes sense , let's see it by Wednesday.....


If not- We can start again.

CW

You say we may have to start again, but I say from just glancing at the last few posts, I didn't see anyone who said "good idea" to the Green Lantern/Savage Dragon team up, CW. I mean, you just put it out there and then said let's get a script. This is where interest is lost. No one other than you jumped on the GL/SD train. We never really got on a roll as to what two characters made a good match.

Not to sound mean, but why are you the sole chooser of who gets teamed up? Personally, I think those two choices are bad, and not so much for the reasons that they may be mismatched, but because Green Lantern literally makes me yawn. If Dragon's gonna throw down with someone from another universe, make it someone he can really throw down with. Devastation MUST ensue, and lots LOTS of bodily harm.

You said "let's go green." Think about Hulk.

You want to go awesome? Think about Lobo.

Think about anyone other than Green Lantern and maybe get some more ideas from other folks.

[Ugga Bugga]

I'm going to throw in my two cents here.

It seems to me that there are two difficulties with these projects

(a) finding writers
(b) finding colorists.

Right now, I would say the state of the writer's forum here is at best in disarray, and at worst a disaster.

Unfortunately, we do not have a vibrant writing community here. I'm working on it, but really, the writer's forum people are me, Amadarwin, occasionally Xadrian, perhaps a few others.

I don't know why, but there is not a huge numbers of writers hanging around here, waiting to show their stuff. It is unfortunate, and probably something that needs to be addressed.

In the last jam, I hopped aboard, and wrote something about two characters I knew nothing about. Xadrian willed it through by brute strenght, and we have a really solid final product, in my opinion.

However, I was writing something completely out of my element. I am not rushing in to write something with characters I know nothing about again, because I am concerned that I won't do it justice.

That said, since writing is at a premium around here, the first thing you should do is find a writer, who is willing to write something.

We don't have the luxury of competing scripts, so how about making it comfortable for the writer.

Once you have nailed down who will write, make sure the writer is in on the discussion of what the subject matter is going to be. (I jumped in last time, after the characters were chosen).

You can put up a million suggestions. If there is no one out there that is willing to write for this, the project will not get off the ground.

[CWmax]

You say we may have to start again, but I say from just glancing at the last few posts, I didn't see anyone who said "good idea" to the Green Lantern/Savage Dragon team up, CW. I mean, you just put it out there and then said let's get a script. This is where interest is lost. No one other than you jumped on the GL/SD train. We never really got on a roll as to what two characters made a good match.

Not to sound mean, but why are you the sole chooser of who gets teamed up? ....


To get the project rolling - Desicions needed to be made and some deadlines set...or we will sit in here throwing ideas at the wall endlessly. We can't sit around waiting for a consensus from everyone...We need someone to say this what we're doing and we do it...It's not a lifelong commitment-We're asking for one page from people...Believe me, Ghost and Moonknight are not characters that I think about drawing all the time, but I did a page of 'em for the last jam anyway....
The reason the last Jam worked was because Xadrian made choices and set deadlines....

This project needed someone to step up and play editor....I did....

I asked for anyone interested to choose two characters they wanted to work with....I picked two characters from the write in's- Which included Cable, Green Lantern, Spidey, Savage Dragon, Hellboy, and Devilman-....

As far as 'not making a good match" - In a form such as superhero comic books...Anything can happen- All it takes is a good writer and artist. I mean, take a match of Me vs. Superman...It's no contest....Until the writer gives me a bag of kryptonite to work with....Or me vs. the Japanese Imperial Army...Again...I would probably get wiped out...Until the writer puts me behind the console that controls an unstoppable armada of Kill Crazy Giant Robots....


That said....It IS important for people to be interested...Which is why I solicited opinions on the characters from everyone before making the call on the final two.... I notice Popninja didn't contribute any choices when the call went out....I guess only Hangman likes Green Lantern...


I set the script deadline for Wednesday- If we don't have one, like I said, we can start over....Perhaps Popninja would like to step in as editor at this point and work the jam. If so that's fine. If you think it would work better to have a debate and consensus on characters that make everyone happy...we can do it- But I still think we are better off just making the call and making it work.

[xadrian]

Whenever you're ready, start up another thread. It's actually not locked to just mods, so when you feel you have enough to start, move it on over.

:)

[fusciart]

How about a Sin City yarn? We wouldn't need a colorist. :D

[CocaKoala]

I agree with the comments made so far, and want to add my 2 cents also, and some more ideas.
I kinda just went through everything on my mind, so I have put it all up on my website here (www.kjboase.com/fusion.html).

Anyone interested can read it. If it warrants its own thread I am happy to post it up for comments/feedback.


but here are some of my clearer thoughts..

If a writer creates a kick ass script, it is likely that people will want to have a go at drafting it and inking it. If the inks are good, more people will be keen to colour it. When all these things come together with a bit of luck you will have a product.

The breakdown comes when the quality is not there to "attract" people to collaborate further.

So with all this emphasis on quality, things must be kept as simple as possible. Simple things are easier to get right, but still not easy...

The last thing people should be thinking about is the "product". That will only come at the end, if it does at all.

Stage 1. Find a kick ass script.
If a script writer can create an original script, and the quality is there.. stage 1 complete. This is the starting point, and most important part for now.. remember everything filters down from here, it needs to be kick ass!.

If not, then use a kick ass script already written.
Look for a 5 page event in your favourite comic book. Break it down into its simplest key elements, post it up, and go from there.

So that’s Stage 1. Don’t rush it.. I’ll say it again.. Quality is important and everything filters down from here.

When you got that sorted, and you got a group of people going.. “Yes!! I want to collaborate on this!” move on to Stage 2. Concept Art, References & Pencilling Roughs,


I hope you take the time to look at my more unfocused spiel on the link.. there may be some more things in there that are insightfull.

Thanks

[CWmax]

Stage 1. Find a kick ass script.
If a script writer can create an original script, and the quality is there.. stage 1 complete. This is the starting point, and most important part for now.. remember everything filters down from here, it needs to be kick ass!.

If not, then use a kick ass script already written.
Look for a 5 page event in your favourite comic book. Break it down into its simplest key elements, post it up, and go from there.

So that’s Stage 1. Don’t rush it.. I’ll say it again.. Quality is important and everything filters down from here.
Thanks

That would be good...but one of the ground rules for the Jam forum is that there is no pre-existing script and that the script must be devolped as part of the 'jam' project....

PS- Sin City would be cool!

[CWmax]

I don't think we are going to be moving forward with the GL vs. SD idea....

I do really like the idea of a Sin City story!

It might work out well because as Fusci mentioned...It would be B&W...

So what do you guys think ....SIN CITY?


CW

[Hangman]

I like Sin City.....and if thats the Jam then we need a writer for it....I would but I'd rather not write chars i dont know.....also how about a Matrix Jam(one written better than the movies)?

[CWmax]

I think that Sin City would be a great experiment to try....

It would be challenging for both the writers and the artists...

It is also a good venue for a 4 or 5 page short story.

Plus as fusciart said...It would be in Black and White so we don't need to worry about the coloring stage!

I would want to try to draw a page...

Maybe we could think of a good Marv story!

If anyone is interested post and we could start to throw around some story ideas...

Whaddya think?

CW

[thEbrEEze]

i just wanna know if anyone is planning on n e more jams cause i am so down to do something lke that.

[Deunen]

Sin City would definitely be cool. I'm down for anything as long as the interest is there. I definitely like the idea of doing a black and white jam so we don't have to worry about getting colorists. Unless there is some miracle where colorists are begging to participate.

I was trying to think of other types of stories that are black and white or would look good in it.
For instance:
Gotham Central and Sleeper would look good in b/w
Lone Wolf and cub
Walking dead

I love brush sequential inks like that story in the last tpb of Sandman. That was a cool story unlike anything I had seen.

Personally I'd like an Appleseed or Ghost in the Shell jam at some point just to see some Shirow styled pages with chicks and mechs but I don't think alot of people would be down for that right now so I plan to try that on my own at some point.

[Hangman]

i want to b part of the next Jam but I'm affraid I cant help with the brainstorming since I dont know anything about Sin City

[CWmax]

i want to b part of the next Jam but I'm affraid I cant help with the brainstorming since I dont know anything about Sin City

Do yourself a favor and pick up the first Sin City TPB titled "Sin City"

Regardless of the direction the new Jam takes....Read Sin City...You won't be dissapointed.

CW

[zombie656er]

the walking dead jam would be cool... but sin city would indeed make an interesting jam... i'm down for either one of those... :cool:

[CWmax]

OK.... I wrote an outline for a short Sin City story about Marv...The trick would be to draw the pages Sin City style....Anyway check it out and let me know what you think...

Oh yeah...In case you don't know..."Old Town" is the part of Sin City where the prostitutes hang out...



SIN CITY STORY

Three people are walking along the sidewalk of Old Town in Sin City.

One is a middle-aged man who is walking with his arm around the shoulder of a young girl who is walking next to him.

Following the couple is the hulking figure of Marv.

MARV (In caption): “Money can buy you anything in Old Town.”

The trio turns down a dark alleyway.

In the alley the middle-aged man shows-off the girl.

MAN: “Five-hundred’s the price. You can make ten times that with a fresh piece like this!”

Marv lights a cigarette and stares at the guy for a long moment.

Then Marv hauls off and smashes the man in the face with a massive punch. Blood Splashes.

More blood flies as Marv falls on the guy, pounding his face over and over.

WHUDD! WHUDD! WHUDD! WHUDD!

In the end, Marv walks out of the alley with the girl under his arm as the smashed man lies in the foreground.

[Popninja]

OK.... I wrote an outline for a short Sin City story about Marv...The trick would be to draw the pages Sin City style....Anyway check it out and let me know what you think...

Oh yeah...In case you don't know..."Old Town" is the part of Sin City where the prostitutes hang out...



SIN CITY STORY

Three people are walking along the sidewalk of Old Town in Sin City.

One is a middle-aged man who is walking with his arm around the shoulder of a young girl who is walking next to him.

Following the couple is the hulking figure of Marv.

MARV (In caption): “Money can buy you anything in Old Town.”

The trio turns down a dark alleyway.

In the alley the middle-aged man shows-off the girl.

MAN: “Five-hundred’s the price. You can make ten times that with a fresh piece like this!”

Marv lights a cigarette and stares at the guy for a long moment.

Then Marv hauls off and smashes the man in the face with a massive punch. Blood Splashes.

More blood flies as Marv falls on the guy, pounding his face over and over.

WHUDD! WHUDD! WHUDD! WHUDD!

In the end, Marv walks out of the alley with the girl under his arm as the smashed man lies in the foreground.

I thought the prostitutes ran Old Town themselves. And Marv's not a pimp, but I like where you're going with the outline.

I like the idea of a Sin City jam VERY much. You have me on board for sure if this is the route you're going. Use Marv for sure, and pounding faces is a plus.

CW, in your story is the "young girl" the guy's daughter? Because that would be twisted and cool...in a Sin City way.

[CWmax]

It is kinda ambiguous...I mean, is Marv buying the girl as a pimp? ....no....I think in the end he is more saving her from being sold as a sex slave...

Could it be the creeps daughter?...well again...maybe... No need to be blatent and come right out and say it....

If we decide on this...I think we could let the artists work from the outline... We don't have to break it down in the script panel by panel...I could just break the action into 3 or 4 pages and let each artist figure out his or her page layout....

[CWmax]

Here is a 4-page outline...If you guys like it, you can mark me down to draw page 1.

Page 1

Three people are walking along the sidewalk past the prostitutes of Old Town in Sin City.

One is a middle-aged man who is walking with his arm around the shoulder of a young girl who is walking next to him.

Following the couple is the hulking figure of Marv.

MARV (In caption): “Money can buy you anything in Old Town.”

The trio approaches a dark alleyway.


Page 2

The trio enters Alley.

In the alley the middle-aged man shows-off the girl.

MAN: “Five-hundred’s the price. You can make ten times that with a fresh piece like this!”

Marv Stares at the Man for a long moment.



Page 3

Marv lights a cigarette and takes a puff...

Then Marv hauls off and smashes the man in the face with a massive punch.

Blood splashes.



Page 4

More blood flies, as Marv falls on the guy, pounding his face over and over.

WHUDD! WHUDD! WHUDD! WHUDD!

In the end, Marv walks out of the ally with the girl under his arm as the smashed man lies in the foreground.


CW

[Hangman]

does it have to b a close art style to the comic or do u mean u want it in the dark crime/noir feel and look?

also can we pick our page? if so I wouldnt mind page 4.

can we get some pics of marv?

[CWmax]

does it have to b a close art style to the comic or do u mean u want it in the dark crime/noir feel and look?

also can we pick our page? if so I wouldnt mind page 4.

can we get some pics of marv?

Hangman,

You should check out the Sin City TPB.

Here is a link to a Frank Miller Sin City page...
http://hem.passagen.se/fm4/sincity.html

There is a very distinct Black & White style...I think it would be fun to see us all try to emulate it...

So you're saying you're up for a page...That's great.

If we can get two more people to commit then maybe we could get started with this one...

CW

[zombie656er]

alright men... i'm in for page 3...

[fusciart]

I'm in for a page. I'll even host it.

[CWmax]

Cool! Looks like we'll have enough interest to move forward...

Here is a sketch I worked up today...
http://files.photojerk.com/CWmax/MARV.jpg

Here's Another...

http://files.photojerk.com/CWmax/MARV2.jpg

[fusciart]

Looks good. What's the middle aged man and the girl look like?

[CWmax]

Looks good. What's the middle aged man and the girl look like?


Good Question...

We need someone to draw them up....

Any Volounteers?

[xadrian]

Ok guys, time to move it to a new thread.

[thEbrEEze]

i'm in for a page, i love that style, lets do it

[D-chan]

Just an idea for the next possible Jam. Time is wasted here trying to come up with an original idea and original plot (not that I'm complaining. the stuff you guys come up with is great), but I thought why not take an already existing plot and just redraw it? I got the idea reading Amazing Fantasy #15 (Spider-man origin), and thinking how I would set up the panels if I was originally given the script. I was thinking about doing the entire comic, but then realized how lazy I inherently am and realized that I would only get maybe 2 or 3 pages done max. I then decided this might be a fun project at penciljack. thoughts?

[Ugga Bugga]

The point of this section, is to "fuse" the elements together.

Writing and Art.

Yes it takes a while to get a good script, but that is sort of the point of the excercise.

For the next jam, I would recommend that a writer be nailed down first. ie is there someone prepared to write something.

Once you do that, start the brainstorming with the writer involved in the process.

That way, there are truly original projects being generated.

[xadrian]

Yeah I'm not ruling out future experiments where we redraw a few pages of a popular issue from days of yore or maybe 5 pages with no dialogue or 5 pages of lots of writing with lots of small panels of people sitting in a coffee shop. Right now, and I think for at least 2-3 more jams, I think we should stick with the idea of established, semi-mainstream characters, quick and dirty story, short deadline. Once we have a couple of those showing we CAN do it, it will open the door for more variance and some more diverse ventures.

Honestly, I'd like to bring 10 page jams back. The way I look at it, it should run like a parallel process. If you have 5 people doing pencils and it takes them a week, then inks for a week then colors for a week, the only thing keeping you from changing that to 10, 15, 22 pages is people not committing. Best to limit your exposure. That's all.

I hope you're interested enought to stick around. :)

[Agamemnon]

I am attracted to what was said above "The point of this section, is to "fuse" the elements together. Writing and Art."

Currently there is a Writing half of this site also, though it is not as busy as the artwork section of the site it is looking to grow. I just discovered it a short time ago, and this board even more recently, and I for one am glad such a thing exists and I think that the more both sides work together the better. In that light, I have been working on something for the writing half of the boards that I am pretty happy with. Since you seem to be looking for a script, I am going to post it and see if it catches anyone imagination. It seems to fit what people are looking for at least generally, it is a 3-page script without dialog.

The story is basically an untold tale from Magneto’s early years, before he truly developed his mutant powers. It fits neatly within the Magneto Timeline that can be found online.



Page #1

This page makes use of muted colors in order to convey the darkness of the time period, and the emotional state of the characters. One might describe the colors presented as worn out or having the look of old fashion printing where the colors do not kick, the most important thing however is that the colors portray a world without beauty and happiness. Two colors are an exception to this rule. First, the white of the protagonists hair is a very clean white (unlike the ‘snow’ covered landscape that appears slightly gray which should be included in all panels) that stands out on the page. Second, blood appears in the pages as bright red.

Panel #1 is a long panel across the top 1/4th of the page. Panel #2 is half page size, however this is not a large panel because two smaller panels, Panel #3 and #4 are inside this panel on the right side. Panel #5 is a long panel across the bottom 1/4th of the page.

Panel #1: The left side of this panel acts as the foreground, while the perspective looks back at an angle that forces the right half of the panel into being the background. In the foreground you have a young Magneto (around 17) walking with a slightly younger woman who he is supporting as they walk. They both wear worn out prisoner uniforms, with black and white stripes going from bottom to top. Both characters look sick, and extremely malnourished. In the background stands Auschwitz and the gate can be seen. It is a metal gate with the words “Arbiet Macht Frei.” (Translation footnoted.) Use a reference photograph.

FOOTNOTE: * Work makes one free.

Panel #2: The border of the left side of this panel is the trunk of a tree from the bottom of the panel to the top. Near the top of the tree fragments of bark are flying, as the tree has just been struck by gunfire. Magneto and the girl are shocked/frightened by the gunfire, and Magneto is pulling the girl away from the tree as he look up at where the bullet hit himself. Several more bullets are flying over the heads of both characters. The gunfire should draw the readers eyes from the tree towards the top of panel #3, making their eyes look across all three panels quickly.

Panel #3: This panel shows a German Officer, and obvious member of the Nazi party looking through binoculars and a German foot-soldier standing beside him. Technically the timeline of Panel 2-4 can happen in any order, all happening at one moment of time.

Panel #4: This panel shows German Soldiers firing, with several aiming at an angle opposite the gunfire in panel #2 (so that the gunfire creates a makeshift triangle and returns the eyes of the reader back towards the second panel. Connecting it all into one moment in time) and at least one rifle discharging at the moment of the panel takes place.

Panel #5: This panel shows Magneto and the girl running. Magneto is in front and holding the girls hand, he is nearly dragging her behind him. Trees make up the background as the two make their way into the forest. Bullets fly around the pair.

Page #2

This page makes use of muted colors in order to convey the darkness of the time period, and the emotional state of the characters. One might describe the colors presented as worn out or having the look of old fashion printing where the colors do not kick, the most important thing however is that the colors portray a world without beauty and happiness. Two colors are an exception to this rule. First, the white of the protagonists hair is a very clean white (unlike the ‘snow’ covered landscape that appears slightly gray which should be included in all panels) that stands out on the page. Second, blood appears in the pages as bright red.

This page is divided into four equal sized horizontal sections. The #1 and #2 panel, along with the last panel are all equal in size taking up 1/4th of the page. The last section (which could have made an equal sized panel second from the bottom) is divided into five parts all the same height, but slightly thinner in each panel moving from left to right.

Panel #1: This panel shows Magneto and the girl hiding behind a tree, with soldiers behind them at an angle where the escaped prisoners cannot be spotted. The soldiers are obviously searching. Magneto is looking at his hand, in it he holds three metal buttons.

Panel #2: This panel shows more soldiers in the woods, including the German Officer (Page 1 / Panel 3) shown earlier in the script. One of the soldiers has a Doberman on a leash.

Panel #4-8: This series of panels are all the same height as previous panels (1/4th the page), but they are divided left to right into five progressively smaller panels. In this series Magneto is attempting to lift the buttons with his powers, a skill he has barely started to developed. Each shot is a close-up of Magneto, a shot that gets closer with each panel. Starting with a shot that includes both shoulders, hand, and head the last shot shows on part of his face and the hand holding the floating buttons. Magneto shows signs of straining during these panels, including sweating and strain in his face muscles through the first four of these panels. In the fourth panel he strains and one button starts to float, in the last the straining is gone and all three buttons float.

Panel #9: In this panel Magneto reveals himself, and a soldier is able to him, however it is too late. One of the metallic buttons has already flown from Magneto’s hand and has hit the soldier in the head. This shot does show blood, and it is bright like Magneto’s hair, not muted like the other colors.


Page #3

This page makes use of muted colors in order to convey the darkness of the time period, and the emotional state of the characters. One might describe the colors presented as worn out or having the look of old fashion printing where the colors do not kick, the most important thing however is that the colors portray a world without beauty and happiness. Two colors are an exception to this rule. First, the white of the protagonists hair is a very clean white (unlike the ‘snow’ covered landscape that appears slightly gray which should be included in all panels) that stands out on the page. Second, blood appears in the pages as bright red.

Panel #1 of this 3-panel page is a half-page ‘splash’ page. The bottom half of the page is divided in three equal sized parts vertically, making Panel #2 through Panel #4.


Panel #1: Magneto is more the figure we know today in this panel, as he has managed to use his not fully unleashed abilities to devastating effect. Magneto shields the girl while he uses the buttons as bullets to attack the soldiers. The officer, dog, and soldiers are all shown here--many falling under Magneto’s attack.

Panel #2: Magneto has collapsed on the ground, and now sits in the gray colored snow on his knees. He looks exhausted from his effort. A sign that he has used all of the power he could muster, a single button lays on the ground beside him.

Panel #3: In the same moment, the gray colored ‘snow’ begins to fall from the sky. Magneto, still on his knees, looks up and raises his hand as if catching the snow that is gently fall into it.

Panel #4: This panel shows the smoke towers of Auschwitz. This acts as a reminder of why the snow appears to be gray in color. It is meant to pull the reader back from Magneto’s triumph in escaping and remind them that even the future most powerful mutant of the Marvel Universe was no match for those horrors.

[xadrian]

Ok, what the heck was that for?

[Agamemnon]

Ok, what the heck was that for? - Xadrian

I am not sure I understand the question. I explained my post in a clear way I believe--it is a project proposal.

Anyway, I assume by your reaction I should not have posted. My appologies--I am new to the site and simply posted an option for a project because it seemed that people were looking for one. One person said a writer should be tracked down, and another said a finished script might be useful. You posted:

I think we should stick with the idea of established, semi-mainstream characters, quick and dirty story, short deadline. Once we have a couple of those showing we CAN do it, it will open the door for more variance and some more diverse ventures.

Again,my appologies if I misunderstood, I am new to this site. Simply trying to be an involved member.

[Ugga Bugga]

Agammemnon,

There currently is a jam that is in the stages of being finished.

What happens with these things, is when it is time to come up with a new idea, we argue and bicker for a while, until a concept is agreed upon, then a script is written, then we run with it.

There has been much resistence in the past to using pre-existing scripts.

Hang around, and keep posted on the developments with the Sin City Jam happening now. If you are in the right place at the right time, you may be able to participate in the next jam.

[xadrian]

From the posting guidelines...


For example, even though one member will be charged with writing the script, the theme and genre and characters must be decided upon by the group before the script is written.

Understandably this thread has become an unmanageable morass. It was meant to discuss the forum in general, not necessary ideas about new jams. But this is what it's for, learning the process. I just see a script posted kind of out of no where and had to ask.

If you want to write the next script, when the next project starts up, throw your hat into the ring.

I'll re-evaluate this thread and possibly how to handle discussions over the forum vs. discussions for new projects.

[Agamemnon]

My mistake on missing that rule post, it was lower than this one and I was under the impression that those were rules for starting new threads/project posts. I am use to the most important thread to read first being on top, so I made an incorrect assumption.

Anyway, thanks for clearing that up, now I know.

We wait until the other project is done to start throwing out ideas?

[Ugga Bugga]

With the Sin City Jam now finalized, it is clear that we have what it takes to get these things done.

Good work everyone.

I would like to make a suggestion for the next one.

We should come up with a topic, then have a script competition in the Writer's forum. The winning script gets done.

There seems to be some new activity, and new writers coming in the forum, and it would be a good way to get them involved.

Any thoughts?

[Hangman]

gambit..........

[G-man_2000]

Maybe a “James Bond” type 5-page comic?

[xadrian]

I've got about 4-5 suggestions for the next project. I think I'll do a poll and do it democratically.

As far as competition for script writers, that's been brought up before and been given the thumbs down. The thinking is that this is a collaborative area, not a competative one. And honestly without some subforums this place would get muddy real fast. It's bad enough this is acting as the Info/Suggestion thread all in one. I'd rather someone just step up and write a script for us.

However, I'd like PJ to weigh in on this because we've taken some flak for the quality of the stories here lately. One reason is because they're short, but we can't get past that just yet. This does dispaly a demand for some kind of script process, but with the rest of the pages being voluntary, I can't really ask that the writers compete.

[Agamemnon]

What happens if more than one person wroites something? First come first serve? I would assume it ends up a contest anyway.

[Ugga Bugga]

In the past, a writer has comitted to the project. There has only been one writer.

[Agamemnon]

I would have expected that you would have been overrun. A poll is always fair.

[Bruce Lee]

Ben,

As you know, the Buffy/Blade Jam is beginning to wind down, and I'm very pleased with what we've been able to achieve so far! We're in the final stages now, so I was curious to know if you're open to taking project suggestions at this time? I have a few ideas that might work very well for jams. Are you allowing multiple jams at once, or is that too much of a talent recruitment drain?

Anyway, I know a James Bond Jam is a possibility for the near future. I'd like to see that one get the nod. Is the floor open to other ideas as well?

Loston

[Ugga Bugga]

Ben,

As you know, the Buffy/Blade Jam is beginning to wind down, and I'm very pleased with what we've been able to achieve so far! We're in the final stages now, so I was curious to know if you're open to taking project suggestions at this time? I have a few ideas that might work very well for jams. Are you allowing multiple jams at once, or is that too much of a talent recruitment drain?

Anyway, I know a James Bond Jam is a possibility for the near future. I'd like to see that one get the nod. Is the floor open to other ideas as well?

Loston

I have submitted a James Bond script to Xadrian.

[xadrian]

Yeah, and I love it. Aside from a few dialogue changes, it's really well done.

We're going to be pushing the boundaries with it because it's 9 pages.

I don't want to get into a habit of doing long ones like this, but this script was too good to pass up. Anyway, for the record, the norm is still 5 page scripts.

As soon as Loston's signed off and posted the final masterpiece, we'll start on the Bond project.

And again, to Loston and his crew: Well done. I believe you guys came in (are going to come in) at just under 2 months (jam start on 2/10) that's a heckuva feat, even for just being 5 pages, these things are notoriously sick with extra effort and I think you did really well. We could all learn a lot from what you guys accomplished.

Cheers.

[Crimson Spider]

The script's that good, eh? Cool.

I'll definitely sign up to pencil a page when it starts.

[Bruce Lee]

For a long time now, I've been wanting to do a FANTASTIC FOUR animated-style jam. It's the sort of jam that would have to be at least 8 pages though, but one that I'm not interested in pushing until after the JAMES BOND jam is in the can. It is one that I'm hoping that will be a lot of fun, and the script I have in mind is the sort that could make for decent portfolio pages. Anyway, I wanted to mention the FF Jam publically to officially call "dibs"!

Another jam idea I had was to do a three page jam, but with a twist. The idea is to enlist three different pencillers to interpret a three or four page script. There would then be three separate inkers, three colorists and three letterers. The result would produce three mini comics--three different interpretations of one script. Not only could that serve to help a few pencillers, inkers, and colorists to put a portfolio together, it would give PJers a unique chance to see how three unique groups of people handle the same script! We are usually only privy to see one group of people's efforts on comics, so this might be something fun. Such a jam might generate some healthy, competitive spirit, but I'm not talking about a running a draw-off in any way. There won't be any voting for "best page" or any of that. That's not the purpose. The purpose would be to see one group of artists working together with some page continuity, and then to see how another group might go about things differently.


Loston

[Super Rats]

Hopefully it will only take one day to do the James Bond project, because it's the other two ideas that I'd really like to get to.

[Crimson Spider]

Anyway, I wanted to mention the FF Jam publically to officially call "dibs"!


I'll pencil a page.

[xadrian]

Hopefully it will only take one day to do the James Bond project, because it's the other two ideas that I'd really like to get to.

HA HA HA HA HA!!!

HAAAA HAHAHAHA! Heh heh. Oh man. One day. Heh. whew.

That was good. Thanks.

Seriously. I'm going to give it the same 3 month time frame as the other ones. Just because there are more pages, doesn't mean it can't get done in the same amount of time. Theoretically, if we have 9 pencilers, and they each have a week, pencils should be done in a week, natch. It's the later stages I worry about. There's never enough inkers, pencilers want to ink their own stuff, colorists want to do the whole thing or you have 1 colorist doing triple duty.

I'm going to try to shake things up a bit with this next one.

[KaRzA]

Another jam idea I had was to do a three page jam, but with a twist. The idea is to enlist three different pencillers to interpret a three or four page script. There would then be three separate inkers, three colorists and three letterers. The result would produce three mini comics--three different interpretations of one script. Not only could that serve to help a few pencillers, inkers, and colorists to put a portfolio together, it would give PJers a unique chance to see how three unique groups of people handle the same script! We are usually only privy to see one group of people's efforts on comics, so this might be something fun. Such a jam might generate some healthy, competitive spirit, but I'm not talking about a running a draw-off in any way. There won't be any voting for "best page" or any of that. That's not the purpose. The purpose would be to see one group of artists working together with some page continuity, and then to see how another group might go about things differently.


Loston

Really nice idea :)

By the way hope i can join the bond project

[krikkit13]

I'd love to pencil a page for a James Bond jam. Or a cover. I can do double duty on my page if you have difficulty getting enough people involved, although I know that's less than ideal.

[xadrian]

The JBJam is going to be run a little differently.

You'll see more when I get it all laid out and posted. It's going to be longer, a little more specialized (but still totally open and voluntary) as well as split into two working sections.

By this weekend I should have it started.

It's an experiment as we've seen (especially with Loston's baby) that 5 pages can be done without going over the deadline. If this next one fails, we'll do more 5 pagers.

[Ugga Bugga]

Not to try to juggle too many things at once

However, now that we are moving into the art phase of the JBJam, I think now would be a good time to agree on the next jam, and to commission a script.

We can put the script up for C + C when we are starting the inking on JBJam.

That way, when JBJam is in the books, we will be ready to move right into the art phase for the next jam.

[xadrian]

Trying to get the word out, Bond jam needs more people.

[Ugga Bugga]

I was wondering if we could agree on the subject for the next jam now, so that a script can be written now.

C + C can go on the script as the Bond Jam ends, and we can be ready to go right to the artwork phase???

[Super Rats]

The different teams working independently on the same script idea Bruce Lee suggested sounds the coolest to me as either a spectator or a participant if time permits at that point.

I also like the Fantastic Four idea...or anything with an animated or fun feel to it like Kim Possible or Dirty Pair or even animated Batman/Batgirl (whatever the current cartoon is called). That's the kind of stuff I'd like to read/see in a jam.

[xadrian]

I promised Loston I'd let him run another one because he's been sitting on an idea for a long time now. I do think that short script and different pencilers take a crack at it idea is cool, it's not really collaboration, more of what the old Critical Mass was, but I'm sure there'd be a way to work with it.

[banshee]

Id love to see the FF script tooooooooooo (err I cant participate other than cheering and being opinionated cos I cant draw hahaa)...

wld love to see some interaction btwn the writing lab and PJ artists.. even with the writing contest (5 pagers), the winner cld work something out here... ??? Well, of course it depends on what everyone thinks and PJ himself :)

lia/B

[Justice41]

Well so far we have been skirting around the edges with some marginal characters and doing them Justice, I feel it's time to delve into something abit more challenging. FF sounds like a good subject but Loston's approach seems more like that art test they used to have in comic books when I was a kid.( No offense Bruce)
I say it's time to up the ante. 20 pages of art plus cover and back. Each penciller and inker must take two pages minimum.
Let's move into the Ultimates Universe. Let's pick one of the Titles and let's pick a gap in one of the titles issues and create a story that could easily fit in-between. I pick Marvel because DC is a little touchy about any of their characters being used, even in fandom.
If tt can be started before the end of this month I can easily do four pages in a week.
Let's pick a title, find a gap in the storyline and wedge a comic of our own in there. Artwork should be by creators looking to use the pages(at any stage) for portfolio use.
Thoughts?

[thEbrEEze]

personally justice that idea is not bad at all, I would love to do an ultimates book or something lke that, even though I couldn't hold a candle to Bryan Hitch but I promise you one day I will! Anyway whatever idea is decided by whoever is EIC then I am down for the pencils. and maybe I'll try my stab at some inks.

[Bruce Lee]

There seems to be some confusion, so let me try to clear things up. I mentioned the notion of doing separate art teams on a jam NOT for the FF Jam--LET ME MAKE THAT CLEAR--but possibly for some future Fusion project. My suggestion was to see how two different groups might handle the same script. We can all appreciate the benefits of such a side-by-side comparison, I think--different approaches to the same problem, and all that jazz. Having two groups working on the same script might also work to energize the work efforts. Sort of friendly competition. It was just an idea, but one with some potential, juvenile or not.

Even so, It was NEVER my intention to do that for the upcoming FF Jam. The FF Jam was always meant to be a traditional, straight-forward jam. The only possible "twist" I ever considered for the FF Jam was to maybe do it as an animated-style project, for the sake of trying something different. That was something I was considering, but has not been set in stone. One of the things that I'm a little wary of is to get into the business of dictating style. On the one hand, dictating style does have its merits. People who are used to doing only one particular style--who approach things only one way--could really benefit from trying something new and different. This would be a case where model sheets would be VERY important--moreso than the usual jams. Anyway, thats the only thing I've been considering for the FF Jam, and that might be left to a vote or something. I'm not demanding it be an animated-style jam, but if that's what others want, I'm all for it.

As I've stated before, I would like to do a decent-sized FF Jam. A 5-page FF Jam would not work well for me. I feel I've earned the right to do a good sized jam (at least a 10 pager), having successfully pulled off both the Conan and the Buffy/Blade jam in record times. Track records need to count for something, right? Anyway, I feel I'm a good risk for a few extra pages.

At the moment, I'm considering whether to use my old script idea, or move on and go for a fresh, new one. I'll have to co-ordinate things with Xadrian in any case.

If anyone has any FF Jam feedback--villains, ideas, etc-- I'd love to see them posted here. Posting ideas doesn't mean your idea will be incorportated, but I would appreciate hearing from some of you guys.

Loston
http:///www.lostonwallace.com

[KaRzA]

The idea of two (or more) groups working in competition is really nice. I'm going to take some time out of inking and coloring (need to be able to "feel" when i'm doing it) but i'll keep an eye (or two) on the FF jam :)

[xadrian]

I just want to make a point about size of the jams. We're really doing our best and coming right up against it just doing 9 pages in 3 months.

9 pages. That's 3 pages a month average fully complete.

The ideal of saying "hey, we have 20 pages and we get 20 artists doing a page a day or 5 artists doing 4 pages in four days and be done with it" just doesn't hold water in this setting. Never really has. Even the most successful jams, 9 to 10 pages took 3 months to do. If we wanted to do 20 pages, I'd realistically have to allow maybe 5 months to do it, and I just don't have the patience for that, maybe you guys do.

I know justice doesn't have any projects going on right now, so he can kick out the work. Some others can as well. But on average, people need a week to draw, a week to ink and a week to color. Ideally you need a month to do any amount of pages, page work should be scalable, but it isn't. People leaving the project, having a hard time finding talent to begin with, etc.

So, keep that in mind. I'm all about pushing the envelope, but I don't want to turn a string of successes into a years worth of failures because we got greedy.

That's all, continue to be optimisitc.

[Rocket37]

I think a FF jam would be alot of fun. I really like the idea of using an animated style for it(ala..bruce timm?) . I think going back to a more conventional superhero type jam may even help with participation..

I def would love to be involved with penciling /inking if possible.

Frank

[Justice41]

I think If you don't demand a lot from people you won't get a lot back.
I have no time to draw anything. I make time. I lose money anytime I'm not drawing something job related.
But If you commit to something as whimsical as these jams and fall out or quit, then as far as I'm concerned you can't be trusted ever again to come through with anything.
This seperates the serious comics artists, creators from the wannabee hobbie artists.
I think I know how to make even a long page count jam go quicker. Just have pencil art done. The pencils can be colored and that's it. No inking, which is really the stickler as far as I can see.
Every jam so far has bogged down around inking.
Tight pencils, straight to colors and lettering should resolve that.
Thoughts?

[Bruce Lee]

I think If you don't demand a lot from people you won't get a lot back.
I have no time to draw anything. I make time. I lose money anytime I'm not drawing something job related.
But If you commit to something as whimsical as these jams and fall out or quit, then as far as I'm concerned you can't be trusted ever again to come through with anything.
This seperates the serious comics artists, creators from the wannabee hobbie artists.
I think I know how to make even a long page count jam go quicker. Just have pencil art done. The pencils can be colored and that's it. No inking, which is really the stickler as far as I can see.
Every jam so far has bogged down around inking.
Tight pencils, straight to colors and lettering should resolve that.
Thoughts?

The jams should be fun, first and foremost. They are a volunteer thing, and that's should always be the main reason to do them, as I see it. While I do agree with you that doing a jam designed to produce portfolio-worthy pages is a nice goal, I don't think it should be the end-all goal. I also see Xadrian's point regarding something as large as a 20-page project. Sheesh, that's an undertaking, even if you leave out the inking stage or color stage (or whichever). I don't think 20 pages is all that realistic for Fusion jams. I think 10-12 pages is about the maximum one could push things where that is concerned. Conan jam was 11 pages + cover + model sheets. That's possibly the biggest jam to date, and probably has the speed record (yeah, I'm smilin' big). Still it took just under three months to get that one done, and it took a lot of outside effort to see it done. The reality is this: more pages does equal more chances for people to participate, but it also means more chances for people to leave you holding the bag to. Having done two of these, I can tell you that it always happens, and that there's always a number of people who will come in to save the day, pull double duty or whatever, but that still means delays, none-the-less.

I think a better way to achieve your goal, Justice, would be to plan out a two-part jam, if page count is your primary concern. If the first part of the two-parter is successful, then after another jam gets a turn, you could do part 2 (the continuation). To me, that would make the most sense.

As an EIC, I do agree that you should demand a lot from people (they don't call me "slave-driver" for nothing!), but one must also have reasonable expectations.

Loston

[Justice41]

Bah! I say Bah! I want real world conditions. Hunched backs, ink under fingernails, lead poisoning and staples dug into elbows as your toes get cramps from hanging over the edge of your drawing stools foot rest. Drool and spittle should be covering your neck back abd back of head from boss looking over your shoulder and yelling at you.
Paper cuts should be welcomed and ink should smell like ground beatles. Eyes should be blary from the combo of white and yellow lights.
Or is that just my ideer of a perfect working condition??? Hey. don't tell Osha on me. ;)
I really don't see how it take's so long to do these things? Whatta you guys got lives or something? Cancel em and get back to work.

[Ugga Bugga]

C'mon Justice - It's like I keep telling my wife. Size doesn't matter.

[Justice41]

Well then stop telling her to get a boob and butt job ya lech.:)
It's really not about page count, it's about commitment. Besides wouldn't it be nice to have a list of creators, reliable guys and dolls, whom you could do that PJ project with? Me thinks so.
My motto is" that's great, what else you got?".
Drive should be key with these Jams. The drive to do better to learn from your last attempt. Get used to doing work on time even if no money is coming from it.
I guess I've just gotten used to being a self starter and working as long as it takes to get the job done.

[KaRzA]

I've been thinking... working in different groups... with different eic for each group, with different style from a single script will be nice...
It's possible to go further... a shorter scritp, short deadlines (3 pages + cover, like marvel ask to summit), as many teams as wanted to join (just one penciller, one colorist, inker and letterer per team, the eics will support and help, but the people involved is supposed to be interested enough to finish four pages)... the team decides the final look... just grayscale, painted, animated or cartoon... this way we can see more different looks, how every team decides to develop the script, definetely, to learn... the best part would be to work with people in a different way (no inks, painted... whatever if you find someone that wants to join... or do it all yourself)... but perhaps it's too complicated...

[banshee]

now that is an interesting idea, Karzaa, I do like it!

3-5page scripts, 2-3 teams all racing to finish!.. that shld be awesome and more dynamic no?

wat does everyone else think?
lia/B

[Bryan E.Warner]

umm,Ive been over hearing the discussion,and I do See the agressive points along with the rest.But what is the real desired result,To build That Tower Only the elite can build,Or ( and yep some of us have that Job at the Wigit Factory,) But so any worthy Pencil Jacker could participate.Just My 2-cents ( and you'll probably blow me off,that's OK ) But what about a panel to panel. 1 Script, It could be a hundered pger,but 1 panel per Penciler,Inker.
If they follow threw,They get another panel.:)
Just some thoughts Guys/Gals.I know you all Care about this Community,and I'm very proud to be part of it.:)
Just some thought.
Blessings everyone!
Bryan E.Warner.

[xadrian]

banshee actually has a quick 3 page jam if anyone's interested. I hate to call this an inbetweener, but three pages, shoot, most of you sickos could knock that out over a pot of coffee.

Even if Loston wants to do his F4 jam starting now, I don't mind both going at once. Once both parties are ready, I'll start threads for you guys, then they will be yours to run. I'll help out where needed.

[G-man_2000]

Can banshee drop some layout details on her project?

[banshee]

http://www.penciljack.com/forum/showthread.php?p=612344#post612344

here's the script itself.

Catwoman. Batman (Brief). Rooftops/museum. Err... not sure what exactly you need, G? (my first jam hahaa, bear wt me).

lia/B

[G-man_2000]

KaRzA idea had a fix set of people on a team. I’m wondering how many teams will there be. I’m thinking of waiting to seeing how many people volunteer, than splitting them into balanced and compatible teams. This maybe tricky, we got to see how it goes. Having the script modified a little for each team will give every one some thing a little original to show.

[banshee]

KaRzA idea had a fix set of people on a team. I’m wondering how many teams will there be. I’m thinking of waiting to seeing how many people volunteer, than splitting them into balanced and compatible teams. This maybe tricky, we got to see how it goes. Having the script modified a little for each team will give every one some thing a little original to show.

hmmmm.. now that is an interesting idea... A set of three teams perhaps. U will need a penciller, inker, colourist, letterer for each team right? (or am I missing someone out, besides the writer that is LOL). and then get a vote on which was the best team? is this where u think u'd go?

lia/B

[banshee]

Something like this:

Team A and B and C would include:

Assistant Editor (ie Whipcracker! lol)
Penciller
Inker
Colourist (flats too?)
Letterer

This would mean four pages each IF you include a cover (which admittedly I havent added into my script). There's credits too right...

would this be something like you were thinking of? so it may end up being a bigger Jam than a quickie 3 pager?

lia/B

[xadrian]

I don't mind it being longer if you think you can tough it out. No longer than 3 months, though, that's the only rule.

You let me know when you're ready to start the clock and I'll start the thread.

[KaRzA]

my real idea was not to have fixed number of people per team (nor numer of teams)... to make the final results different... i mean if a penciller don't want inks he just need a colorist just to color or paint over pencils... or just go gray tones, or cartoon... to get different final styles, the teams would be assembled trying to get a final look.
I know this liberties make difficult to have one eic per team. My idea was to have one or two eic per project (for all the teams), assuming all the participans are capable enough to finish his work on schedule (the way they want). eic will be for support, coordinate and advices, trying to help the teams (but not his responsability to make all the teams finish the work)

Finally, the goal was not to vote the best team, just to share, to improve and to see how the different teams finish the only script

[banshee]

Gosh Karza, that wld take A LOT of organising etc... hmmm... not sure...

lia/B

[banshee]

ok... heres what Ive been thinking.

TWO teams drawing the SAME script (im gng to be editing the script to "tighten" it up).. ...what do you think?

xadrian, will PM reg: starting etc.. me gotta think reg: deadlines and how to plan it out :D

lia/B

[Ugga Bugga]

Whatever is decided on . . . We should be thinking one jam ahead.

Loston has been waiting very patiently to do his jam. FF GONE WILD.

I am pretty certain that he has some very specific ideas how he wants it to be run. I think he has earned the right to run that jam the way he sees fit.

for the following jam, we should decide on what is going to be done NOW, so that a writer can be commissioned to write a script, receive C + C on that script, and turn in a script ready to go when the FF jam is complete.

I have written for two jams. I am so much happier with my JB script as opposed to my MK and G script, because I had a month to write and work on JB. The other script was written in 2-3 days. When I review my MK and G script, it will clearly NOT go down in the annals of spectacular literature. To paraphrase Popninja, it had all the excitement of a TJ Hooker episode.

I think that we should pick a theme for the post FF jam. Find a writer prepared to write that script, and have it completely ready to go the minute FF is in the books.

That's just my 15 dollars and 32 cents (damn inflation)

[Bruce Lee]

Xadrian and jammers:

I'm going to have to delay the FF jam a week or two, because I have a SUPERMAN gig with DC COMICS' license department--75 pages pencils and inks by next FRIDAY!! That's a monstrous deadline to meet, and I don't even know that it CAN be met...but I have to do that first. After that, I'll happily start the FF Jam. I can't wait to get it started, because I think it's gon'na be a lot of fun!

http://www.lostonwallace.com/images/thing2.gif

If I live, I'll be back!

Loston
http://www.lostonwallace.com

[F!]

Daaaaaamn. Good luck with that, Loston. I'll be ready to start on Fantastic Four: The World's Greatest Comic Jam when you are.

[xadrian]

I've always been one to think that there are enough people on this board that if we had two jams going at once, we'd be ok. There are a ton of people (carter) who I don't see hardly anything out of anymore but I know they're great.

These jams always get the same people, it seems like. I'm not knocking those folk, they are good folk; sturdy, full of life, clear eyes and mind. However, this time around I was really please to see the likes of justice and karza throwing down as well as the new guys.

I think there is a great talent pool if we just dip into it right.

That said, I'll have to read up on banshee's project, it sounds bigger than I thought. I'll have some thoughts on that in a few.

[banshee]

That said, I'll have to read up on banshee's project, it sounds bigger than I thought. I'll have some thoughts on that in a few.

it seems bigger than I thought to me too! I really envisioned one 3 pager jam, quick and simple. I hadnt planned on doing two teams etc etc...

Am fine with whatever folks decide..

YAY loston, GO FOR IT !!! (sends loston truckloads of caff to work thru hehe)

lia/B

[F!]

One scene.
Two teams.
Three pages.

From the same scene description, each team produces three finished pages: script, pencils, inks, colors, and letters. Winners decided by poll. Sound reasonable?

[thEbrEEze]

whatever you guys decide on I will love to do both jams, FF is a must. I'm down for pencils, i think i'm gettin better, three teams sounds great just to seewhich direction each team takes.

[Super Rats]

I like F!nch's proposal. I like how it includes a different writer for each team, but having the same script is good too. I'd throw my name in the hat to be the penciller on one of the teams in any version of this next jam.

And the FF is definitely one I'll look to join.