Why give Hybreed the raw deal

[Griffon2k]

Terry, though I am fairly new to this forum, I want to express some regret over seeing this situation. I understand the rules, however as someone viewing this situation from the outside, I must say I think even though you did not move his post yourself, you exhibited some pretty harsh behavior. From what I've seen so far, penciljack is a forum for artists to post their work and get feedback. Hybreed is an artist, and he submitted some work for feedback. His six-page preview alludes to the fact that he intends to continue the story at a later date and that this work is a preview of what's to come. He didn't try to sell any product or garner any business for any pro studios, so why did you give him such harsh treatment beyond moving the post?

As I said before I understand the rules, and that they were applied because a moderator felt they were appropriate. However, the decision to chew out Hybreed for asking why it was moved and providing an explanation for what he intended is out of line, uncharacteristic of a fair moderator, and certainly discouraging to artists who wish to display their work to their peers in this forum. I hope that in the future you will consider the way you come off to people and the effect of your attitude and actions in this forum on the artists who post here.

Artists come here for feedback, not the Patriot Act

Thanks for your time,
David Williams (Griffon2k)

[penciljack]

Originally posted by Griffon2k
Terry, though I am fairly new to this forum, I want to express some regret over seeing this situation. I understand the rules, however as someone viewing this situation from the outside, I must say I think even though you did not move his post yourself, you exhibited some pretty harsh behavior. From what I've seen so far, penciljack is a forum for artists to post their work and get feedback. Hybreed is an artist, and he submitted some work for feedback. His six-page preview alludes to the fact that he intends to continue the story at a later date and that this work is a preview of what's to come. He didn't try to sell any product or garner any business for any pro studios, so why did you give him such harsh treatment beyond moving the post?
I think you're missing some of the crucial facts about the situation. First, the artwork still exists in the Storytelling & Sequential artwork forum:

http://www.penciljack.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=43545

The topic in the Drawing Table was moved because, in the context in which it was presented ("wallpaper" with a preview!) it was deemed promotional by a moderator. Secondly, as I pointed out to Hybreed himself, it was also a double-posted thread.

That should have been the end of the story.


As I said before I understand the rules, and that they were applied because a moderator felt they were appropriate. However, the decision to chew out Hybreed for asking why it was moved and providing an explanation for what he intended is out of line, uncharacteristic of a fair moderator, and certainly discouraging to artists who wish to display their work to their peers in this forum.
Please check the thread in question. You'll find the rationale was provided to Hybreed several times, not just once. What is out of line is continued kibitzing about the decision.


I hope that in the future you will consider the way you come off to people and the effect of your attitude and actions in this forum on the artists who post here.

Artists come here for feedback, not the Patriot Act

Thanks for your time,
David Williams (Griffon2k) [/B]
Sorry, but I reject the assertion that Hybreed received anything close to a "raw deal." As I told you, his artwork is still in the appropriate forum. There is no issue, other than what you or others try to make of it.

If I made one mistake in that thread, it was that I continued to try to explain the reasons for the thread move.

I will express some resentment at the tone of your closing paragraph. I will run this forum as I see fit, and that's pretty much the end of the story there. If I felt this was a major issue, I might be more inclined to "consider" my "methods and actions." The way I see it, though, you're essentially making a mountain out of a molehill.

[Griffon2k]

I am sorry that you feel some resentment toward my statement. I simply wanted to share with you a view from the outside of the situation. Yes, you are free to run this forum as you want. That is evident in your attitude with Hybreed.

I didn't make my comments to object to the moving of Hybreed's post, I made them to let you know that your posts to Hybreed came off as sharp edged and close minded, people are affected by that, and that is why people responded the way they did. The decision wasn't popular, and that's fine, but your words made the whole thing come off as elitist, biased, and with extreme prejudice. That kind of thing can discourage people from posting their work.

It is your attitude that concerned me, not your decision. Your decision is your perrogative, but people will react to your attitude. Judging from your "my way or the highway" rhetoric, and the fact that you went on the defensive in your response to my post instead of simply saying "I'll consider that" or "I didn't know I came off that way", you appear to be pretty closed minded to feedback. That can't be healthy for the forum.

But I am not here to tell you how to run your forum, and that wasn't the point of my post. I just wanted to inform you of how you came off, and that your attitude, not necessarily the "decision" you made was what sparked the objections in the thread, and that a change in tone or rhetoric could prevent that in the future.

No need for resentment, none of this is personal, just something I felt should be brought to your attention. I apologize for any hard feelings caused, and hope to post with you on a lighter note in the future.

Thanks for your time
David
Griffon2k

[penciljack]

It is your attitude that concerned me, not your decision. Your decision is your perrogative, but people will react to your attitude. Judging from your "my way or the highway" rhetoric, and the fact that you went on the defensive in your response to my post instead of simply saying "I'll consider that" or "I didn't know I came off that way", you appear to be pretty closed minded to feedback. That can't be healthy for the forum.
I think your definition of "defensive" must be off the mark. You posted some comments (laced with an accusation or two), I responded. That's the way the game is played. I assume you posted with the intention of having me answer, otherwise, what's the point?

All I can do is do what I do, and how I do it. You're obviously free to pass judgement on me however you wish, even without taking into account the totality of the situation. If I felt I had done Hybreed wrong, I'd be more inclined to take your opinion seriously; that is if you hadn't called me "defensive" and then proceeded to call me close minded, biased, prejudiced, elitist.

But it's okay, right, because you then said none of this was personal, right? I think you'd do well to take your own advice and consider how your words could be taken, if I were to choose to do so. In fact, I think if you could see the irony of this from my POV, you'd get a chuckle out of it.

This ought to be the last word on this matter: Hybreed's artwork is still posted in the appropriate forum; Hybreed and I have discussed this matter and have reached an understanding. Anything more than that is just instigation.

[Phil Clark]

Originally posted by Griffon2k
Judging from your "my way or the highway" rhetoric, and the fact that you went on the defensive in your response to my post instead of simply saying "I'll consider that" or "I didn't know I came off that way", you appear to be pretty closed minded to feedback. That can't be healthy for the forum.

I have been here from the beginning, and let me tell you this. The absolute last thing Terry is when it comes to feedback on this forum is closed minded. You are confusing closed minded with resolute. As stated throughout this entire situation, there were specific reasons why the moderators did what they did. And just because you or Hybreed don't like what was done doesn't change the fact that according to the rules of the forum, what was done was what should have been done. Not with any malice towards Hybreed, but simply because the rules were broken.

If I had posted the same kind of thread, I would expect to have our moderators do exactly the same thing with my thread. It isn't personal, it's just the rules. And the rules are not open for debate. They were set up to give these forums structure, and to keep them from degenerating into the muddled mess that we have all seen at other boards.

99% of all our members follow those rules with no problem. All we ask is that you two do the same.

[Griffon2k]

I hope this reply is met with better reception and ends the deal as I attempted to do by saying I hope we speak later on a better note.

Closer reading of my words will reveal that I said your CHOICE OF WORDS used to respond to questions about the decision made came of as biased, elitist, etc. Your words were PROVOCATIVE. Had they not been, there would have been no such reaction from other members. Again, I said YOUR WORD CHOICE came off as biased, elitist, prejudiced, not YOU, yourself.



So it seems the move was entirely appropriate. It's not a matter of whether you're impressed or not. You clearly posted with a promotional goal, since you indicated that the posted image was "wallpaper" in the topic title[QUOTE]So it seems the move was entirely appropriate. It's not a matter of whether you're impressed or not. You clearly posted with a promotional goal, since you indicated that the posted image was "wallpaper" in the topic title.

It wasn't my intent to discuss the moving of hybreed post, I just wanted to comment on how you handled the legitimate questions asked. Since you mentioned that I pass judgment with taking into account the totality of the situation, I took a long look at Hybreed's post in Storyboards and again at his wallpaper post. It can be seen as a simple misunderstanding. In storyboards, Hybreed posted only the 6 page preview of his work. In the other forum, he posted wallpaper, and included a link to the same preview. The difference, he never mentioned wallpaper in the storyboards forum, because there was no wallpaper involved.

The PROBLEM arises from the fact that he included a LINK to work he had already posted.

That was viewed by moderators as a cheap attempt to get people to look at his sequential work, but if you look again, you'll see that the first response of the thread was directed at his wallpaper, not the sequentials. So the wallpaper had its own merit. The issue snowballed when Hybreed asked what he had done wrong, since it wasn't intentional, and he got an ice cold answer from you.

Had you simply stated that the posts raised some concerns on whether or not the rules had been followed, and set Hybreed straight without any of the "you're lucky it wasn't deleted" attitude, it would have ended there....and that was my point in posting to you in the first place.

Not everyone breaks rules intentionally, when you treat everyone like they do, it raises concerns among others. In this case, someone in the thread began questioning whether they could post wallpaper without getting it deleted.

It could have been handled better is all I was saying, and it could have been. But you are a moderator, and my opinion is just that, an opinion, I just wanted to express it.

Again, I don't think you are a bad person, never said so. And I truthfully hope to post with you again, hopefully discussing some artwork. After this, I am actually interested to see some of your artwork, and maybe show you some of mine...Really, that is why I signed up on the site.

I'll let it rest there. The rest is up to you.

[penciljack]

Here's the thing, Griffon - you need to understand how difficult it is for me to take your post seriously.

On the one hand, you're telling me that you're just saying this for my own good, and for the good of the forum, etc. However, instead of approach me privately about it, you post an accusation-laden message in public (and in the wrong forum, no less), with a title of "Why give Hybreed the raw deal?" There's no wiggle room there; your first post was clear. It wasn't, as you would have suggested, "Hey, Terry, I think you ought to reconsider what you said to Hybreed."

Further, you go on to do some of the things you're accusing me of doing in justifying your point.

Given that, there's no reasonable way your words can be taken the way you say you intend them to be taken. This isn't an insult to you, rather it's a plea to get you to understand that context is tremendously important when judging words, which is what I think you're misunderstanding with my comments to Hybreed.

I make no apologies for the way I responded to Hybreed. I know not everyone breaks the rules intentionally, but I have to make the judgement calls and part of that judgement is based on how individuals respond to moderator action and to me. You said I was "cold," and maybe so, but I would categorize my first respons as "matter-of-fact." You're not going to change my opinion on that.

Like I said, I've already worked this out with Hybreed. That ought to be the end of the discussion, but alas, it's not, because some insist on pursuing it.

I'll leave you with a final note regarding advice. The most oft-offered advice I receive, from no small number of individuals, tells me I spend too much time "coddling" people and trying to explain things to them. I've resisted that because I always wanted to work above board, out in the open. I'll probably have to rethink the amount of time I spend replying to such things in the future.

[TheWraith]

Griffon is right in his various statements. I can definitely see where he's coming from.

[dfbovey]

:rolleyes:

[penciljack]

Originally posted by TheWraith
Griffon is right in his various statements. I can definitely see where he's coming from.
That's great. I'll take the opportunity to remind you, too, that nobody's forcing you to post here. If the way things are handled here is just simply too atrocious for you, then there are other alternatives.

Thanks for shopping! Have a nice day!

[Popninja]

Originally posted by penciljack
That's great. I'll take the opportunity to remind you, too, that nobody's forcing you to post here. If the way things are handled here is just simply too atrocious for you, then there are other alternatives.

Thanks for shopping! Have a nice day!

You tell 'em, Terry! Tell 'em, "This is MY house, dagnammit, and if you don't like the rules of my house, then don't let the doorknob hit yo' ass on the way out!!"

Or you can just say it in the tactful manner in which you already did.

[Ian Miller]

Griffon, are you from DW? I remember there was a huge uproar over there about Hybreed's thread being closed down. But it's still open in the S&SA forum, right? I got a few threads closed because of double-posting before. Terry just doesn't want the boards filled with the same posts in different forums.

[penciljack]

Originally posted by Popninja
You tell 'em, Terry! Tell 'em, "This is MY house, dagnammit, and if you don't like the rules of my house, then don't let the doorknob hit yo' ass on the way out!!"

Or you can just say it in the tactful manner in which you already did.
No, it's not a "this is my house" sort of argument. One just wonders, if Wraith and Griffon think so poorly of me and this site, why they continue to post here.

I haven't forced anybody to post here. Everybody posts here of their own volition. It's that simple.

[Carter]

What kind of wierd inbred Internet world do we live in that people bitch about other message boards on THEIR message boards?