Wolverine#3 pg#5

[JR Studio]

Stop me if you've heard this one before? Wolverine walks into a dinner..

The kind Darick (current Wolverine artist) Robertson sent me the script to Wolv #3 to try my hand at it. It was a lot of fun, Here's how page #5 came out.

http://www.reyesart.com/images/wolv_pg5.jpg


Thanks for taking the time to view my post,
-Jimmy

[muthmaniac]

Looks good. There are a couple places that I think could use some work, but it might just be me. :)

1. The first panel of Logan on the motorcycle looks good, but could be more dynamic. Maybe something more like a worm's eye view, and Wolvie's about to run us over. or something, perhaps a little less played out than my suggestion. Also, Logan looks a little uncomfortable on the bike. Might have something to do with the way his thigh is connecting with his waist.

2. The rain all seems to be going the same way. In all of the first four sequences, it should move depending on the angle that the picture is being drawn from. To go along with that, I think that the splashes on the first image, coming from the road look more like potholes than actualy puddles or rain hitting the ground.

3. Also, the whole beginning sequence seems kind of redundant. I realize that you're probably just following the script, but it seems that the big image of Wolvie, the first panel looking down the road towards him, and the panel showing the sign could all be condensed. Also, and again this isn't necessarily your problem, but I think that just the name of the town seems kind of generic and doesn't give us a setting. It'd be cool to have either the state that this is in on there or some kind of motto like, "Home of the Trucker" or something on it. :)

4. Last thing, honest, is that in the last two panels, you have a tangent in where Wolvie's hand is on the door coming in and the guy getting his coffee filled...See how they run into each other? Throws the image off a little. And the angle in the last panel also seems a little strange. Since almost all of the shots in this page have been straight on, I'd have liked to have seen something different in this on. Something to make me want to look at the next page. As a suggestion, and something perhaps a little daring, a close up shot of the mug and the coffeepot pouring the coffee. With Wolvie in the background, and maybe some kind of reflections of the waitress and the truckdriver in the coffee-ware. Or, and again I don't know anything about this like I haven't read issue 3 or anything, so I don't know where this is going, but if Logan is coming after the guy in the foreground, perhaps we could just have his reflection, kind of distorted in the coffeepot with Logan in the background. Hope that makes sense. :)

Despite my long-windedness, I like the page and think that it shows talent.

-John

[JR Studio]

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts. I drew directly from Gregg Rucka's script and didn't want to deviate from it. Tangents happen, you can't draw every panel from a medium shot.

Though I do get what you mean. I kept all the important info in the panel and let what was not important run off the page to create the illustion that there is more to the image than the camera man captured.

Thanks again,
-Jimmy

[Baloodoo Bill]

Solid storytelling, your draftsmanship shows some chops, Logan's got some good swagger. But, your perspective ... EEK!

If Wolvy and the bar are "correct" in the last panel then:
That's one low bar, under three feet ...
The door is 15-20 feet high ...
The guy getting coffee is a little person or standing in a very deep hole ...
The eyes on Coffee Drinking Man should be even with Logan's chest ... You obviously know some perspective, you just need more work with scale

As a motorcyclist, I can say getting hit it the eye by a 70 mph rain drop hurts like hell. I'd give him shades or goggles and drop the hat, It would blow off at highway speeds anyway. You could stuff the hat down his jacket or saddle bags. Personally, I'd pull the footpegs back behind the knees or give him some apehangers so he can lay back. I've seen bikes with that configuration but, it's grossly uncomfortable for long distance and looks kinda silly.

One of these days, I need to post instructions on how to draw a circle in perspective for tires and such.

Great start.

[Logan Fray]

I love that first 4 panals amazing layout. great job man.:cool:

[JR Studio]

Baloodoo Bill:
Thanks for the suggestions. Perspective is someting I'm starting to learn all over again. I stopped drawing for awhile and this is only my third page back. The thing with perspective is that it begins to look off as it nears the edge of the panel.

Your right about the hat, thought he need something to protect him from the rain.

Hey, as someone who rides a bike, can you tell me what harley this is?




Logan Fray: Thanks, my favorite panel has to be the dinner scene. I enjoyed creating all those characters.


Again, thanks for taking the time to post a reply.

-Jimmy

[Baloodoo Bill]

Originally posted by JR Studio
Baloodoo Bill:
Hey, as someone who rides a bike, can you tell me what harley this is?

I think I saw that model on the street just the other night and thought: "That's a Hog?" All I know is, it's one o' them "new fangled" jobs.

While the hat would provide protection at a stop sign, at speed, the rain essentially "hangs" in the air while your eyeball smacks it at 70 MPH. Ouch.

[JR Studio]

I hear ya. It falls into one of those does' superman ever use the bathroom and how do female superheroes keep those small tops up. In real life you would need eye protection, but in comics I don't think we really need to go into that kind of detail when we're drawing against the clock.

When I sent this back to Darick he said the samething about the hat.

BTW: it's a V-rod. I just like the way the bike looked all chrome.

Thanks for the feedback.

[kroberts]

Tangents don't just happen, and when they are brought to your attention you should do something about it. Seriously, it looks bad. If you're not going to take constructive criticism just show it to your friends and family who don't know any better. Adjust the coffee guy's arm so it's laying flat across the table and it will solve the problem, his hand is too small anyway.

[JR Studio]

What? Who said I can't take constructive criticism? I did say thank you.

I'm glad to see your intetested in my art enough to make it your first post. Talking with several editors and pros they mention nothing of Tangents to this extreme. It seems to be the new cool term on PJ and Digitalwebbing.

I agree with you the hand should be bigger. You need to create the illustion of movement, so here's eating his pie and saying "thank you" with his mouth open. So if I put his hand on the table it would make the scene lose it's motion.

Your cup tilts when when your being poured something while it in your hand, because of the weight of the lyquid.

Listen, don't take ths the wrong way. I'm thankfull for everyone taking the time to view my work. I'm kind to those that post comments and are not at my skill level. I'm not cocky, I take the feedback with a grain of salt and have been kind to everyone in All my posts, So show me some respect.


-Jimmy

[chynco]

i think the storytelling is clear for the most part. the perspective and antomy is off in many places, but it's something easily learned with practice.

i'm not really crazy about those extremely high angle shots, they're always used badly. lots of begginers use them to try and give some sense of environment, but in the end only end up giving too much negative space, and its not needed. i think there's too many long shots in the beggining anyways.

anywho, i think JR has been quite reasonable with his responces to the critiques.

[JR Studio]

chynco:

Thank You, gave your opinion well, without discourgement. I'm always working antomy and perspective. Even working pros have things they dislike about there work and look to improve.
------------------------------------

I held back for many years turning down work, because I wanted to be perfect. Now I'm at a good enough level to work and will improve as i go.


What I was trying to say about "forums" is that you have a lot of "the blind leading the blind" cases. Then you also have young artist that can't seperate their "opinion" from a "crytique". Sure there are many ways of doing things, but don't cut on someone because they did it differently.

Don't get me wrong, just because I'm a working amateur I will never look down on anybody and will always encourage artists.

constructive criticism is telling an artist his weak points and how to improve them. Not just "this is wrong". You also need to encourage them by pointing out there strong points.


Thanks,

-Jimmy

[MankindRam]

Originally posted by JR Studio

I'm glad to see your intetested in my art enough to make it your first post. Talking with several editors and pros they mention nothing of Tangents to this extreme. It seems to be the new cool term on PJ and Digitalwebbing.
-Jimmy

My new favorite response. Jimmy theses are very goos panels you have imroved a great deal since I last you.

Ram

[Undecided]

What I was trying to say about "forums" is that you have a lot of "the blind leading the blind" cases.

Aside from a few artistic diamonds in the rough, you've pretty much summed up PJ on that response.

[JR Studio]

Originally posted by Undecided
Aside from a few artistic diamonds in the rough, you've pretty much summed up PJ on that response.

:D LOL, well yeah, there are those Diamonds in the rough. I'll admit there's alot of talent here.

I just don't like feedback like "Anatomy is wrong" but they can't tell you where the anatomy is off or how to fix it. In my opinion only crituiqe when you can offer a suggestion or technique on how to fix it. That's the only way well learn and grow as artist.


Jimmy

Thanks Ram! Nice to hear from you again!

[Baloodoo Bill]

Originally posted by JR Studio
... In my opinion only crituiqe when you can offer a suggestion or technique on how to fix it.

D'oh. Tag, I'm it!

Here are a few examples of how to gauge size and proportion by eye.

Assuming Wolv and the bar are "correct," project the top and bottom of the bar towards the left to find the VP and then draw your horizon. Note that it passes through Wolvy at the crotch. Wolvy's a little guy, his crotch is maybe 30 inches off the ground (Yeah he's got cowboy boots but, he's also hunched and bowlegged from the ride so, let's stick with 30) This means that everything the horizon touches, it touches at the 30" mark.

Note where the horizon touches the door frame. Calling the distance from the horizon to the floor a "unit" you'll see that the door is 6 units high. That's 15 feet.

Note where the horizon touches the bar. This puts the bar height at about 34" and the barstool at about 22". I don't know about official industry standards but, my bar is 43" and my barstools are 30".

I'm 6 feet tall. Sitting, my eyes are 49 inches off the ground when seated in a standard dining chair. The Eyes of Coffee Drinking Man (being at horizon level) are at 30". This gives CDM a full height of about 4'5" (*). A big part of Wolvie's schtick is to be, at 5'4", the smallest guy in any given room.

So how do you fix it? Erase everything except Wolvy. The POV seems to be as though the viewer is sharing the table of Coffee Drinking Man. The Horizon always sits at the eye level of the viewer. This means the horizon should hit Wolvy at about the 4 foot mark or just below his T-shirt collar (this assumes the viewer is 6 feet tall, which reinforces Wolvy as a short guy) Anyone who is 6' and sitting in a dining chair will have their eyes on this line. It also means that we see the top of the bar.

From here, we use Wolvy as a ruler. To place a scaled item in the scene, place a mark on the floor. Draw a vertical through the mark. Draw a line from the mark, through Wolvie's feet to the horizon (or from Wolvie's feet, through the mark to the horizon) . From that point on the horizon draw a line (L2) back towards your vertical that passes through, or over, Wolvy at the height of the intended object. Examples: With a 2 foot tall object, L2 would pass through Wolvy at about mid thigh. With a 3 foot tall object, L2 would pass through at waist height. 4 foot is the horizon. 5 foot, Wolvie's mid-forehead. 6 foot above Wolvie's head. Where L2 hits the vertical is the scaled height of your new object.

Better yet, forget this post and get "Perspective Made Easy" by Ernest Norling from Dover Publishing. There's a Walter T. Foster version out there which should be avoided as its the same price for about 200 pages less material. EEK.

(*)edited to fix muffed math. Note to self, 53 inches is NOT 5'3". Boy, talk about your new math.

[penciljack]

What I was trying to say about "forums" is that you have a lot of "the blind leading the blind" cases.

Aside from a few artistic diamonds in the rough, you've pretty much summed up PJ on that response.

I think it's terribly interesting to totally disregard advice about tangents because you personally haven't heard anything about it from editors, and then complain about the "blind leading the blind" and then cast aspersions on the whole of this forum after doing it.

If you don't understand what a tangent is and why they can be trouble, that's one thing. But I think it's a mistake to disregard advice just because you haven't heard anything about it from "several" pros or editors, especially when many of us here HAVE heard about tangents from more than several pros and editors. Heck, I'm working with a professional writer who pointed out a tangent in one of my pages not long ago. So it happens.

Is it possible tangents are harped on too much? Well sure. But that doesn't mean they can't distract from the overall quality of the work.

In your page, for example, I do believe the last two panels aren't as strong as they could be precisely because of the tangent formed from Wolverine's left arm to the guy's right hand. It feels like Wolverine's hand is reaching through the panel border and feeding the guy. So in that regard, this tangent is very distracting to me. If it makes you feel better, don't call it a tangent, just call it an unfortunate placement of two elements.

While I'm on a roll, I'll also mention that I think the page could benefit from a closer shot somewhere. It's a little bit overdosed on the medium and long shots. Plus, the figure of Wolverine on the motorcycle and the figure of Wolverine entering the door seem to be too similar in size, which makes it feel a bit like a pattern. This tends to make the top and bottom halves of the page seem like to separate elements instead of one cohesive whole, with the two figures serving as anchors for the two separate vignettes.

I think it could be fixed with a somewhat closer shot of Wolverine entering the bar (which, cooincidentally, would also help with the lack of closer shots on this page).

Too, I think the page is a bit overrendered. Not that you draw the texture poorly in the least, but there's just so much texture everywhere that it's difficult to get a good read on the page because everything feels kind of grey.

One last bit of criticism - think about working in a little bit of body language into your figures. Everybody's so stiff and vertical, even Wolverine on his bike. I can buy the bit about the hat staying on, but I can't believe even Logan would be all that happy to be driving in the rain like that. Maybe he could be hunching forward just slightly, tilting his head a little further forward to keep the rain out of his eyes? And maybe one or two of the guys in the bar could be slouching, or even leaning back or something?

The more I think about it, the more I think that the underlying theme on this page, in terms of criticism, is lack of variety. Everything's heavily textured, everybody's got vertical body language, every panel's got rain in it, and we've only got basically two kinds of shots - medium and long. Think about mixing this up. Lead the eye into and through the page by focusing the texture in key areas, and maybe leaving some of it out in others. Give our eyes some visual landmarks by arranging the sizes of the panels and figures a a little more purposefully.

Having said all that, this isn't a bad page at all. In fact, I'm really quite fond of the way you rendered the headlight on the motorcycle. It's really stunning, and it's one of those little details that could so easily be overlooked but that adds so much to the page, IMO.

I don't know whether my opinion is welcome or not, as I am one of the "blind," but there you are.

[Bruce Lee]

Originally posted by JR Studio


I'm glad to see your intetested in my art enough to make it your first post. Talking with several editors and pros they mention nothing of Tangents to this extreme. It seems to be the new cool term on PJ and Digitalwebbing.

It's not a "new cool term" at all. It's an artistic term that's been around for a long, long time. Tangents are areas where contour lines converge in a way that can flatten out images, add confusion, and can lead the viewer's eye away from what is important in a panel or illustration. Sadly, many editors don't seem to know much about artwork these days--that's been my experience--so I'm not surprised none have mentioned tangents to you. Tangents are something to be avoided, and are examples of poor design.



Originally posted by JR Studio
Listen, don't take ths the wrong way. I'm thankfull for everyone taking the time to view my work. I'm kind to those that post comments and are not at my skill level. I'm not cocky, I take the feedback with a grain of salt and have been kind to everyone in All my posts, So show me some respect.

You're not cocky, eh? How nice of you to be kind to those not on your "skill level." :rolleyes: Sorry dude, but that statement alone says that you do have some ego. It reads like you're talking down to others, whether you meant to or not. Don't kid yourself -- even people (that MAY or MAY NOT be beneath your skill level) can offer you SOLID, constructive criticism that's worth listening to.

You do good work, but there's still lots of room for improvement, man. Opinions, even those you disagree with, are what criticism is all about. You surely know this already, and I believe that you are sincere when you say you appreciate comments, but you are showing it an a very defensive way.

Chill out a little, have fun, and learn a thing or two. Take that tangent thing into consideration. Keep growing as an artist, and enjoy the ride. It's a fun ride if you allow it to be.

Take care,

Loston Wallace
http://www.lostonwallace.com

[mrcynic1776]

Originally posted by Bruce Lee


Chill out a little,have fun, and learn a thing or two. Take that tangent thing into consideration. Keep growing as an artist, and enjoy the ride. It's a fun ride if you allow it to be.

Take care,

Loston Wallace
http://www.lostonwallace.com

Thank you, Bruce.

We all post our artwork here to get constructive criticism in hopes of getting an editors attention and if you think the people on the forum are brutal, talk to an editor.

Many editors mind they don't have the time our concern for your "feelings" and are going to dish it out fast and brutal. Listen to the people in this forum and remember the quote above. Keep growing as an artist, you are obviously talented, but only hard work, dedication, and consistent improvement will get you a job.

By, the way. I disagree with penciljack (shame on me), but I enjoyed your rendering.

See, I didn't tell you what needed improvement only encouragement, but only improving will get you the work.

[JR Studio]

Wo! Hold on now!

I didn't think you understood what I'm saying at all. I admit I'm no writer and text can be read in any tone.

What i'm saying is "tangents" get thrown around to easy with no explanations. Editors do talk of tangents just not to this extreme. Penciljack gave a very good explantion and I would have excepted that.

Loston; "Chill out a little,have fun, and learn a thing or two. Take that tangent thing into consideration. Keep growing as an artist, and enjoy the ride. It's a fun ride if you allow it to be. "

I agree that's what I have been saying this whole time. I'm not cocky or have a chip on my shoulder. Sorry if it read that way, but that was the best way I saw how to explain it.

If someone wants to talk to me about perspective I'll listen as long as perspective is there stong point. If not it's the blind leading the blind thing.

Hope you understand what I'm trying to say, I'm not upset..just don't really like to type.

Thanks for the feed back everyone, and I do mean that.

-Jimmy

[JR Studio]

One more thing Penciljack & Bruce Lee;

That was some of the best feedback I have ever recieved in a longtime, very professional and encouraging at the sametime.

and to all that posted a suggestion or crytique. Thank you for your help I will go back and reread them all and take them into consideration.


Thanks,
Jimmy

[Bruce Lee]

Jimmy,

I finally found time to give you a decent critique. I haven't read all the crits and comments others have posted, so if any comments are repeats, I'm sorry. Let me say right off the bat that this is a strong page, especially from a drafting standpoint. The drawing overall is quite good. There's plenty of room for improvement throughout, and I'll offer up some comments below:

Panel One: This is obviously your vanity shot on the page.
Everyone is entitled to one of these ever now and then--we all need to show off our drawing ability from time to time. You do so here, and do it pretty well. But there's a few things that would make this panel even better. For starters, Wolvie's body language could be better. He's a little rigid looking in the saddle, and doesn't truly seem to be sitting on the bike. :confused: He's a bit too horizonal, sitting on his motorcycle, and that not only translates as stiff and unrelaxed, but it also works to kill the sense of speed you're trying to achieve within the panel. Lean him back a little, or even lean him forward, but the horizontal, straight-backed pose is a little too unnatural.

Really play up his jacket flapping behind him, and the splashing water beneath his front tire. Both will help you convey the desired motion and speed.

Speaking of the front tire, I suggest you use a good ellipse template on it. You didn't do a bad job freehanding the tire, headlight, etc, but the ellipse shapes are off enough to draw unnecessary attention to them. Ellipse shapes are tough to pull off freehanded. If you make the slightest mistake, it's always quite noticeable.

PanelTwo-Four: Okay. I don't know the script, so I'm not really sure why you need FOUR panels (counting panel one also) to get Wolverine to the diner. I'm not sure that you couldn't cut one of two of these panels out. Are they really necessary?!?

I also think you don't need an overhead shot in panel four. It's a cool camera angle, but it doesn't tell your story as effectively as a shot of Wolvie on his bike, pulling into the diner/bar with the camera POV behind him, and the diner clearly displayed in the background. So what you sacrificed a bit of story clarity for a flashier, less effective shot here. No, there's no major confusion that will leave readers lost in the dark, but the storytelling's not as solid as it could be, and that is worth pointing out to you.

Panel Five: This panel's fairly sizeable, and there seems to be little reason (that I can see) for this panel to being so large. Nothing much is really happening here, save for the minor drama of Logan opening a door. You'd have been better off using a smaller panel here, in order to give panel six (a far more important panel) more space.

I must comment though, that you did a great job on Logan's jacket. There's a good sense of texture and some nicely lit wrinkles and drapery going on there for sure.

Panel Six: Okay, the reader finally learns Wolvie's destination here, and guess what? Because of the way you've staged the panels on this page, it's a little anti-climatic.:( Why was it necessary to show Wolvie riding his bike in so many panels in the first place? Did the script dictate that? Why not cut to the chase and stage this page like this:

P1) An establishing panel showing the diner/bar with a sign that says: "Welcome to Westfall";

P2) a panel establishing Logan getting off his bike (you could actually combine this panel AND panel one together);

P3) a panel with Wolvie walking through the doorway of the bar in a shot like panel six here.

Jimmy, what I'm saying is, this entire page could have been done in only two or three panels, and the same story could be told: Logan goes to the Westfall diner. Unless there was lots of angst-driven dialogue that made the bike riding scenes necessary, I just don't get the point of taking six panels to tell a story that can be done in half the panels.

Anyway...

There's some things within panel six I'd like to point out to you. The biggest thing is that the perspective here is incorrect. You have the horizon line positioned too low, so you're having weird things occur, like that chair on Wolvies' right (our left)--that's way too small. The pay phone near the door is positioned to high. Like doorknobs, pay phones are usually positioned at a comfortable level for grabbing. Not too low and not too high.

Your vanishing point seems to be focused on Logan's crotch, so the readers attention is going straight to his mutant bag of goodies....uhhmm... kind of weird...


I've taken the time to work up an overlay for you with the horizon line placed at a more reasonable location. I hope it will be helpful to you:

http://www.lostonwallace.com/wolvie.jpg

Well, I hope my comments and crits shined some light your way. I look forward to seeing more posts from you on this board in the near future, and I hope you will take what I have said here into consideration. Sequential art is tricky, and none of us are masters of the craft. Even the best of the best struggle with it from time to time, learning something with each page drawn.

Take care,

Loston Wallace
http://www.lostonwallace.com

[Gauge]

can someone pleeeaase tell me exactly how you establish where your horizon line and vp are going to be?? I'm really new to perspective, and I'm just not understanding how you know where to put those.

[TheFightingFoetus]

Originally posted by Gauge
can someone pleeeaase tell me exactly how you establish where your horizon line and vp are going to be?? I'm really new to perspective, and I'm just not understanding how you know where to put those.

I'll try real briefly.

Okay, look up at the ceiling in your room. Wherever dead center of your sight of vision is, is the horizon line from your point of view. I'd prefer to call it the eye-sight line, instead of the horizon. 'Cause horizon line sounds confusing.

Vanishing points on that horizon line can be set anywhere, depending on how the object you're drawing is turned.

Best thing you can do, is get as much photo referance of backgrounds, cities and such, and do fast sketches of them. Try to establish where it is your eye-sight line is. Where is it that you are looking straight ahead to? Once you find that area, then try to connect the buildings with lines zooming back to the eye-sight line, and you'll find the vanishing points.

If you draw enough of them, you'll figure it all out.

[JR Studio]

Thanks Lee! That helps out alot. I printed out your feedback so i can keep it.

I'll be sure to post some new stuff soon.

[Gauge]

Foetus, thanks for trying man. You sorta got my understanding a bit clearer. But sadly, I still don't have any faint understanding of the thought processes that go into placing your horizon line and VP. Lee, that's got to be the best crit I've ever seen. Ever. The only thing I disagree with is

"P1) An establishing panel showing the diner/bar with a sign that says: "Welcome to Westfall";

P2) a panel establishing Logan getting off his bike (you could actually combine this panel AND panel one together); "


I think all that squeezed into one panel would be too much.

[TheFightingFoetus]

Originally posted by Gauge
Foetus, thanks for trying man. You sorta got my understanding a bit clearer. But sadly, I still don't have any faint understanding of the thought processes that go into placing your horizon line and VP. Lee, that's got to be the best crit I've ever seen. Ever. The only thing I disagree with is

"P1) An establishing panel showing the diner/bar with a sign that says: "Welcome to Westfall";

P2) a panel establishing Logan getting off his bike (you could actually combine this panel AND panel one together); "


I think all that squeezed into one panel would be too much.

Get yourself a copy of Perspective for the Comic Artist. It should answer your questions much more clearly, than I can. And with comic illustrations to show instruction.

[Gauge]

i ordered a perspective book from Blue Line pro a few days ago. I'm not sure how long its gonna take to get here.

[TheFightingFoetus]

If it's the book by David Chelsea, then that's the book I'm referring to.

There are a lot of good books on perspective, but his really breaks it down the easiest, and most efficiently.

I have to say, I was fortunate engough to have one of the greatest perspective artists in the world as an instructor at CCS, so that helped me immensely. (I fake all my perspective now, just ask Methane. It drives him nuts. ;))

[Bruce Lee]

Originally posted by Gauge
The only thing I disagree with is

"P1) An establishing panel showing the diner/bar with a sign that says: "Welcome to Westfall";

P2) a panel establishing Logan getting off his bike (you could actually combine this panel AND panel one together); "


I think all that squeezed into one panel would be too much.

Gauge:

That's why I listed wrote out two panels and only suggested that the two COULD be combined. Ideally, it's a good idea to pace things a little--the establishing shot first, then the shot of Logan getting off his bike would no doubt be best. My overall point though is this: You don't need to take all day to tell a very small bit of story. You don't need to take four panels to show a character striking a match, for instance, when one gets the job done. That's all I was saying there. :)

As for the horizon line it's as FightingFoetus says--the horizon line is always at your eye level. Vanishing points are spots along the horizon line where converging lines meet (taper to a point). The panel I reworked for JR Studio's Wolverine page is an example of one-point perspective, meaning it has only one vanishing point along the horizon line. Your eye level on this panel is on the level of Logan's stomach area, so that's where I placed the horizon line. This vanishing point is identified by the large red "X" I drew on Wolverine's stomach (see below). Notice how all the objects in the room have converging lines (those vectoring, light blue lines) that lead right to the vanishing point (see below).
http://www.lostonwallace.com/wolvie.jpg


JR Studio:

I'm glad I could help you out, Jimmy. You working on more Wolverine pages to post?

FightingFoetus: The name of that book on perspective is PERSPECTIVE FOR COMIC BOOK ARTISTS, by David Chelsea. It's available on Amazon.com, Barnesandnoble.com, and most bookseller stores. It's one of the better books on the subject out there. Andrew Loomis' out-of-print THREE-DIMENSIONAL DRAWING book is very comprehensive also. That one may be available online to download some place.

Loston
http://www.lostonwallace.com

[Cuddly]

Originally posted by Gauge
i ordered a perspective book from Blue Line pro a few days ago. I'm not sure how long its gonna take to get here.
That's the Pat Quinn book, right? Let me know what that's like. I'm curious to know. I read the Quinn article on 1-point perspective and it was quite good. Everyone's right, though - the David Chelsea book explains perspective very clearly. Highly recommended.

The Horizon Line is at the viewer's eye level. The viewer being the "camera" that "shoots" the panel. Thought process would be "Where's my camera's eye level? I'll draw a line there and that's my horizon line". Sounds simple, till you get to 3-point perspective.

Vanishing points are always on the horizon line (except in the aforementioned 3-point perspective, where 2 VPs are on the Horizon Line and one VP is not - it's perpendicular to the horizon line). Determining WHERE to place those VPs is a matter of practise, practise, practise.

Perspective's a tough topic to master. I continue to struggle with it constantly.

JRStudio - I like the artwork. You've got a nice style going there. Strong draftsmanship. Good job getting the bike's front tyre in perspective nicely. That's tougher than you'd think. Without looking at the script, I can't comment on the pacing. If you were faithful to the script, then I'll assume the writer's got some reason for using up so many panels on the getting to the diner. The tangent between the last two panels has got to go, dude. I really would like to see more pages from this story, or any other artwork you've done.

[bindlestitch]

In case you still care JR that new harley is called a V-Rod....That's the only contribution I can make to this conversation. :o
Nice looking page man. Let's see some more!

[Justice41]

Perspective isn't that hard. I think most are just overwhelmed with the idea of doing a perspective drawing. Everything around us is in a constantly changing perspective. Everytime we shift we change our own view. Just need a way to transfer what we all can see and what we all perceive, down on paper. I guess once the technicals are known, it gets pretty easy to see exactly how things should be placed in space.

[mrcynic1776]

I have both Perspective For the Comic Book Artist and the blulinepro Pat Quinn Book. David Chelsea's PFTCBA is by far the most in-depth and instructive, but the blulinepro has soon great pictures with their grid and structure shown through. I love both.

[Gauge]

AARRGHHH. why am I still not getting it?

I still just can't seem to choose a place for the horizon line. Like you see how JR made the mistake of putting his too low? How would I know that I should have raised it?

[Undecided]

Loston, dammit, if we only had a lot more people like you on PJ, every artist that comes here would improve ten-fold. Your critiques and visual lessons are always invaluable and enlightening. I think we should all thank you for dropping by every now and then to help out. Good stuffs.

[Gauge]

I agree wholeheartedly.

[Bruce Lee]

Originally posted by Undecided
Loston, dammit, if we only had a lot more people like you on PJ, every artist that comes here would improve ten-fold. Your critiques and visual lessons are always invaluable and enlightening. I think we should all thank you for dropping by every now and then to help out. Good stuffs.

Thank you very much, Undecided. When I have time, I enjoy trying to help point others down the pathway with advice, crits and the like. I only wish I had more time to dedicate to critiquing and commenting, but currently, I do not. It's still nice to stop in and check out work on the boards from time to time, though. Some mighty fine artists on PJ, for sure.:)

Loston
http://www.lostonwallace.com

[JR Studio]

Sorry for such a late reply to this...

I like the idea of helping eachother creatively with postitive and encouraging comments. Each of you have been very helpful to me in this thread hopfully with my current project you will see some improvements.

To answer your question lee; I'm working on a five page back-up story for a book to be released through Image, I think..In march..not exactly sure when.

Thanks,
Jimmy

BTW: Cool! Someone guessed what kind of bike it is.

Perspective, yep..that's on my need to work on list.

[Bruce Lee]

Sounds cool, Jimmy. Let us know more about it when it's further along.:)

Loston

[whibbage]

Originally posted by Gauge
can someone pleeeaase tell me exactly how you establish where your horizon line and vp are going to be?? I'm really new to perspective, and I'm just not understanding how you know where to put those.

well maybe, explaining it this way will help, let's break down perspective to the most simplest of ideas.

The "horizon line" is at the verticle height that your eyes are. so if your eyes are about say 5 feet off the ground .. that's about where your horizon line is and that's where it will be all across the entire suface of the earth..(even though the surface is round, but thats a whole other thing that im not smart enough to expain) if you're looking up then you prolly won't see the horizon line, and same for if you're looking down. Or lets say you're on the empire state building.. you're like 200 feet up(or whatever) then your horizon line will also be that high... so anything shorter than 200 ft. will be under the horizon line.

So if you think about it.. if a really long laser beam were to quickly shoot across your entire span of vision at the horizon line it would slice into anything at exactly 5 feet(the height of your eyes.) so if there's someone shorter than 5 feet. they wouldnt touch the horizon line. or, let's say, your eyes are at the exact height of someones shoulders, then their shoulders would be at the horizon line. so if you were to draw that person, start a rough sketch of that person with his shoulders touching that horizon line.

as for the vanishing point, imagine a huge circle drawn on the ground around you, that circle represents the horizon line(the farthest that you can see). Since you are the center of the circle and whatever direction you're looking there is a perfect straight line drawn out( kinda like a radius line) the point where it meets the circle is the vanishing point, sorta. so depending where obects are on the ground they will either be on the left of that radius line( vanishing point) or the the right of it.

This is all one-point perspective, 2-point and 3-point are just slightly more difficult. But understanding the basics will help towards complete understanding. i hope that helped a bit... when you think about it perspective is easy.. it's just hard to explain.

By the way this is Chynco.

[vinnlander1313]

i think an important part of deciding where to put the horizon line and vanishing points comes down to what kind of shot you are going for. i think people get frustrated because perspective can seem so mathematical that they think of it as solving an equation, which doesnt help them when they are staring at a blank piece of paper. ask yourself what kind of shot you are going for, picture it in your head, what are you looking at? are you kneeling to get this point of view or are you laying down? are you standing on a roof top? then figure out what would line up with that. it can be challenging, but it helps immensely if you know what shot you are going for before you start to draw. the laws of perspective will not create an interesting shot for you, they will just help you draw it right. ;cap;

[Baloodoo Bill]

Originally posted by Gauge
AARRGHHH. why am I still not getting it?

I still just can't seem to choose a place for the horizon line. Like you see how JR made the mistake of putting his too low? How would I know that I should have raised it?

The Horizon is where the ground meets the sky. Go outside and find the flattest stretch of land you have in your area. Look at the horizon. Note that it's even with your eyes. Now lay down on the ground and note how the horizon is STILL even with your eye. Climb on top of your house and note how the horizon is STILL even with your eye. The horizon will ALWAYS be even with the eyes of the viewer.

If you want the shot to be what's seen by a standing viewer, draw it about one-third of the way down from the top of your panel. Everyone who is as tall as your viewer will have their eyes on this line. Everyone taller will have eyes above it, those shorter will have eyes below.

Upshots have horizons that are low or beneath the panel, downshots have horizons high or above the panel.

JR's horizon is not in the wrong place. It's an arbitrary choice made by the artist and where ever you place it is correct. The problem is he ignored it after he placed it.

My preferred book is the Loomis recommended "Perspective Made Easy" by Ernest Norling, now published through Dover, available at Amazon.com. Not to be confused with the highly abridged version published by Walter T. Foster, the Dover version is 200 more pages for $1 more.