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rvzoo73
07-27-2003, 01:35 AM
where do you go for photo refrence for female pin-ups?

Frank

Dash Martin
07-27-2003, 01:46 AM
Women. Oh, and porn, lingerie, and swimsuit websites.

brendon
07-27-2003, 10:22 AM
yes, porn....and don't be shy about it :D

jeremy dale
07-27-2003, 11:14 AM
Lord... you two...

Okay, if porn isn't your thing (like me), you can find lots of reference on websites devoted to galleries of models or of stock photo databases...

That's an idea. If porn IS your thing, sorry.

rvzoo73
07-27-2003, 01:54 PM
Thanks but I guess I should have asked to post a link to you favorite website for photo refrences.

Phil Clark
07-27-2003, 11:47 PM
Don't anybody even THINK about posting a link to a porn site. I'm watching this thread. ;)

jeremy dale
07-28-2003, 12:50 AM
Don't anybody even THINK about posting a link to a porn site. I'm watching this thread...

... for a look at some booty.

InkerGuyThippy
08-01-2003, 08:21 PM
http://www.user8.com/models/index.html

That's a great site for lots of models.

*** Link Removed ***

warning nude women on that last one. If you see it as porn than the problem isn't with me, it's with you. It's also sad that you see it as a chance to wank off rather than advance your craft.

InkerGuyThippy
08-01-2003, 08:25 PM
something else I found helpful was after I bought my FiancÚ lots of cute things from victoria's secret, they decided to send me lots of catalogs. I get about one a week. After I thumb through them I give them to her and she makes me buy her stuff. we both win!

Phil Clark
08-01-2003, 11:15 PM
No, the second link isn't porn, but it is photographic nudity, and links to photographic nudity or sites with photographic nudity are not allowed at penciljack.

It has nothing to do with personal taste, its just the rules of the forum.

ruhk
08-02-2003, 12:42 PM
Just be careful with the pics you use as reference. Remember that models are often asked to pose in uncomfortable positions that don't come off as natural.

rvzoo73
08-03-2003, 01:11 AM
Originally posted by InkerGuyThippy
http://www.user8.com/models/index.html

That's a great site for lots of models.

*** Link Removed ***

warning nude women on that last one. If you see it as porn than the problem isn't with me, it's with you. It's also sad that you see it as a chance to wank off rather than advance your craft.


Inkerguy...those are great pages thanks!

Reilly
08-05-2003, 03:37 PM
I recently discovered tennis magazines to be excelent sources for pictures of women, because tennis is the only sport I can think of where the women get as much (if not more) attention as the men. The pictures are taken durring the match, so they're not posed or unatural, and they're often action pics, which is somthing you probably won't find in a girly-mag, and are great for action scenes in comics.
Of coarse if you're looking for some girly-girl pics I usually default to the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue. An entire issue dedicated to beuatiful women, and it's the girly magazine with the least amount of Photo Shopping.

--Reilly

Family Guy
08-12-2003, 06:11 PM
You can get female refs at *** Link Deleted ***.

They have nude females, but there tasteful.

Phil Clark
08-12-2003, 10:55 PM
I told you all, no links to sites featuring photographic nudity. No exceptions.

One more link like that and I will close this thread.

TomLuth
08-13-2003, 02:02 PM
Not to argue the point, but I find it unfortunate that tasteful nudes should not be listed. Most of us took life drawing classes in college, with nude male and female models, without improper remarks or conduct invoved. I'd rather see a few links, perhaps with a nudity warning, to tastefully posed sites, than to leave everyone to stumble through gross-out hardcore sites in the hopes of locating legitmate references. There are also many museums and galleries with classical paintings of great figurative works, but I'll leave you to google your own way around, rather than post them here.

Phil Clark
08-13-2003, 04:37 PM
The rules of this forum are simple. No links to sites featuring photographic nudity are allowed due to the all ages atmosphere that we have established. If you want to exchange links to those sites via email or PM, then feel free to do so, but those links cannot be posted in the penciljack open forums.

Inkthinker
08-13-2003, 05:33 PM
Sorry guys, but the rules is the rules. I agree that there is a difference between tasteful nudity for the purpose of artistic reference and pornography for the purpose of whacking your winky, but we do have a wide variety of users on this board and we have a responsibility not to get us all kicked in the tuchas by some parent-activist group determined to eradicate our naughty, naughty filth.

So no nekkid bits.

atom_basher
08-13-2003, 08:44 PM
porn (http://disney.go.com/park/homepage/today/flash/index.html)

































soooooooryyy differnt strokes for different folks

Phil Clark
08-13-2003, 10:38 PM
Ha.

Ha.


Harumph...

jeremy dale
08-14-2003, 01:56 PM
We love ya, Phil!

Well... maybe not, but still-- I agree that there is a difference, but I agree with the rules of the BOARDS more-- no 12 or 13 year old should be checkin' out nudes... as I'm sure any adult would agree. I mean, they're TWELVE!

Jeremy

Phil Clark
08-14-2003, 01:58 PM
You don't love me?

Pardon me while I wander off and sulk for a while. :(













Ok, I'm back. :D

ruhk
08-14-2003, 02:08 PM
I agree with Reilly. I have been noticing a lot of very good photo's of tennis players in the news paper recently and I just clip them and save them for later. While tastefull full nudity might not be pornography, the poses that these women are in aren't usually helpful. Even in art classes the nude models posed in more realistic positions.

Porn (not referring to tasteful nudes) is usually a really bad reference... unless of course you are drawing porn.

TomLuth
08-15-2003, 07:52 PM
One last post from me on the subject. Photo reference is great, of course, but I would also suggest that you study the figure and anatomy in order to create figures when no reference is presnt, and/or to know how to place a referenced figure into the proper perspective for your particular drawing. There are many excellent books on the subject, but I can think of none better than Andrew Loomis' "Figure Drawing for all it's worth." While first printed in 1943, there has been nothing since that is so all-inclusive about all aspects of drawing the human figure. I must warn that the book in question does include some frightening examples of nudity, so use extreme caution. However, for those depraved souls that dare, I recommend this book highly. I cannot give you a link to a specific location of the book (sadly out-of-print) but if one were to do a google for the author and title, it is possible that a solution may present itself.

Another author worth investigating is George Bridgeman. And again, looking at classic works of greats like Michaelangelo, DaVinci, David, Bouguereau, Alma-Tedema, Waterhouse, etc., couldn't hurt either. Once again, you will need to do your own search for these.

Good luck to all!

ruhk
08-15-2003, 09:00 PM
That is a great book and I am lucky that I have one. I didn't know it was out of print, that's too bad.

penciljack
08-16-2003, 02:20 PM
From Tom Luth:

I must warn that the book in question does include some frightening examples of nudity, so use extreme caution. However, for those depraved souls that dare, I recommend this book highly.
RIght. Sarcasm duly noted and unappreciated.

These discussions always amuse me, because the pretense always seems to be that we, the stiff, overly sensitive, oppressive moderators and administrators here at Penciljack.com are depriving people of their God-given right to view nudity. The real truth of the matter is we're trying to maintain a site that is appropriate for all age levels.

I'll point out that every member who signs up here agrees to abide by the forum guidelines and terms of service, and we've been pretty clear about stating our policy regarding nudity.

You can like our policies or not, while you're posting here, you'll be expected to abide by them.

Reilly
08-16-2003, 05:07 PM
Heh heh, actually, if it's the book I'm thinking it is, some of the pictures get mighty graphic.

But I might be thinking of a different book. . .

--Reilly

TomLuth
08-17-2003, 09:45 PM
"I'll point out that every member who signs up here agrees to abide by the forum guidelines and terms of service, and we've been pretty clear about stating our policy regarding nudity.

You can like our policies or not, while you're posting here, you'll be expected to abide by them."

Which is what I thought I was doing. No nudity, nor direct links to nudity were posted. It is my belief however, that if one wishes to pursue drawing of the human figure, even clothed, some study of the figure, including in the nude form is going to be necessary. While I didn't post links or pictures, I did make suggestions that I will stand by. If this crosses the line, I am simply baffled. I've received more reprimands on my remarks, than have those who have directly suggested that one learns to draw the human figure from:

"Women. Oh, and porn, lingerie, and swimsuit websites."

or

"yes, porn....and don't be shy about it.

and the one labeled "porn" linking to a harmless site, or those who posted actual links that needed to be removed. Wasn't there a degree of sarcasm in these posts I've noted? (And I appreciate their playful humor.) And yet, my posts, where I try to offer sincere and specific suggestions on this topic seem to be the only ones singled out as being "unappreciated." I find this very odd, particularly in light of my posts throughout this forum, including custom built tutorials responding to questions of other list members, and as someone working in the field for 28 years, offering help to those looking to break in. Odd indeed. :(

brendon
08-17-2003, 09:49 PM
christ... if it's that important....
can't you just personal-message everyone the link???

...my humble opinion.

TomLuth
08-17-2003, 10:24 PM
"christ... if it's that important....
can't you just personal-message everyone the link???"

Uhm, I'm lost. What link?

penciljack
08-17-2003, 10:31 PM
Originally posted by TomLuth It is my belief however, that if one wishes to pursue drawing of the human figure, even clothed, some study of the figure, including in the nude form is going to be necessary. While I didn't post links or pictures, I did make suggestions that I will stand by. If this crosses the line, I am simply baffled. I've received more reprimands on my remarks, than have those who have directly suggested that one learns to draw the human figure from ...

Since you decided to attempt throw your weight around, I'd think that someone that someone "working in the field for 28 years" would understand the situation and realize that sometimes there have to be restrictions about what can be shown/said based on your audience. You haven't been reprimanded, though I have expressed dismay with the sarcasm you exhibited with regards to the policy. All we're doing here is trying to maintain a Web site that's helpful and informative without getting our asses in a legal sling. I don't think our policy re: nudity is the least bit unfair or repressive or even much of an inconvenience, so I don't understand the need to keep complaining about the policy, whether openly or subversively through sarcasm.

brendon
08-17-2003, 11:07 PM
Originally posted by TomLuth
"christ... if it's that important....
can't you just personal-message everyone the link???"

Uhm, I'm lost. What link?

Sorry... :(

I was refering to the fact that some people seem to have wanted to post a link or two that directed towards a site with nudity, but the moderator took out the link...

I figure you could send a message to the people who showed interest in the link...

example:

anyone who is interested in the link, which I can't post here due to nudity, please message me and I will send you the link...

penciljack
08-17-2003, 11:12 PM
I think you're missing the point, Brendon. This forum is not to be used to transmit material which is inappropriate, whether you post it in the open or whether you use the forum's PM system.

From the terms of service:

b.You shall not upload or otherwise transmit through the Web site any material that (i) is unlawful, tortious, harassing, defamatory, libellous, abusive, profane, threatening, harmful, vulgar, obscene, sexually explicit, pornographic or otherwise objectionable; (ii) infringes on any third-party rights; (iii) contains any virus or other harmful code that may adversely change or disrupt the Web site or any other user's equipment or software; or (iv) constitutes any form of lottery or gambling.

So don't use this forum in any shape or form to spread links to sites that aren't appropriate here. It leaves me very little choice but to reprimand the offending user, and trust me when I say I REALLY don't want to have to do that.

TomLuth
08-17-2003, 11:35 PM
I had no intention of "throwing [my] weight around", but I do recognize that you feel my presence here is most "unappreciated," and unwelcome. Several others, as I have noted have cracked jokes on the topic, but only mine seem to raise so much exasperation. The bulk of my posting, even on this topic, have addressed the heading of how to reference and draw the female figure, all without a single link, IM or whatever to sites we are asked not to link to, with the intent of being helpful to those inquiring. Seeing as my comments here are not regarded in the least bit helpful, but merely sarcastic and unappreciated, it is a waste of my time and yours to pursue the issue further. Please delete my name from the membership database, and I'll delete my bookmark to this site, and we'll all be happy. :)

Sincerely, Thomas Luth

Phil Clark
08-17-2003, 11:43 PM
Well, I don't want to see you leave based on this discussion. You must understand that this is a problem that we have been battling since the site began. Not just from members who had good intentions (some of them in this thread) but also from spam "bots" that would post the same link to pornographic sites in over 100 messages before the process was stopped and the posts deleted.

We here at penciljack have always maintained that this is an all ages message board. As such, we have to monitor carefully what is allowed to be posted. If you disagree with that policy, that is fine. But for legal reasons the policy is and will remain in effect.

We all agree that figure study is important to drawing the human figure well, but figure drawing does not neccessarily mean drawing nudes.

If you still want to leave penciljack, that is of course your decision. But I wouldn't dismiss a forum for having rules that it protects. You have to stand for something, or you will fall for anything.

penciljack
08-17-2003, 11:53 PM
From Tom Luth:

I had no intention of "throwing [my] weight around", but I do recognize that you feel my presence here is most "unappreciated," and unwelcome.
I did not say your presence was "unappreciated." Rather, as I said quite clearly, the sarcasm was unappreciated.

It matters not whether you've got 28 years experience in any industry (which is what I was calling "throwing your weight around"). I've got to make decisions regarding this site and its policies. And, as I see it, other posters who made comments regarding the policy were addressed. I'm sorry you take issue with the fact that I addressed your comment in particular, but then, that is the nature of a message forum such as this.

If you sincerely want to leave this forum, then that's your decision, though you'll have to follow the procedures outlined in the Terms of Service before any account is deleted. I think it would be unfortunate for you to abandon this forum because you perceive my taking issue with one of your comments as a slight against your entire presence. You're as welcome as anybody else here, but I reserve the right to address questions/concerns/comments about the policies we put forth.

penciljack
08-18-2003, 04:01 PM
...

It's always tough to do, but I think it's important to admit when you were wrong. With that in mind, I wanted to point out that I've emailed Tom Luth privately to indicated my apology for being so stiff over this issue.

I still stand by the policy and the decision-making process we used to arrive at the policy, but that's not an excuse for being rude about it. I've lost a lot of sleep lately, and have put in a lot of hours at work. But while I can point to that as contributing to my being somewhat .... short tempered, I can't claim it as an acceptable excuse.

Anyway, thanks all for taking the time to read my mea culpa, and thanks double to all those who've abided by our policies and have supported us thus far. I'll try to be more even-keeled in the future.

red7ine
08-18-2003, 08:47 PM
in the interest of fairness, how about we have a 'Nekkid Day', where all links, no matter how innocent, go to a hardcore porn site. Maybe do this on Fridays. That way, the rest of the week is balanced out.

And on Fridays, you can ban Devin for that one day, since he's the only prepubescent that hangs out here...

Phil Clark
08-18-2003, 09:28 PM
You know what. This thread has ceased to be about Photo reference, so where did I put that key. Ah, there it is.