View Full Version : Mary Jane and Spider-man
06-17-2003, 10:28 PM
here's four pages of five of a new sequential series of Spider-man and Mary Jane I'm working on. C & C would be appreciated, and the remaining pages should be up soon. Thanks.
Added page 4 further down the post.
06-17-2003, 10:49 PM
Very nice work!
Reminds me of the guy doing Flash (his name escapes me at the moment).
As far as a crit:
The good- the angles are beautiful and the variety makes this a strong piece. I also like the fact that Spidey is not the main focal point, although he appears on 2 panels.
The bad- I am not sure about the 2nd panel....it kinda takes away from the whole page. The background is less thought out, and takes away from all your intricate design work throughout the page. The only thing that also bothers me about the 2nd panel is if it is going to stay the way it is, how will you keep a nice flow going through the first page. Other than the rain there really is nothing to lead the eyes from the 2nd panel to the 3rd panel. However you might just need proper word balloon/caption placements to help this out (if it will get lettered) or even with Scott Kollins (I think that is the name of the Flash penciller) using color to lead the eyes through the page.
Hopefully my comments will help you out, although this is a really nice page and I love it all (except for the above mentioned panel).
Keep up the good work.
06-17-2003, 11:46 PM
That's some fantastic linework you've got there. Very Geoff Darrow! Very clean and clear. I like how you've used variations in the line weights to distinguish between objects. Also, your attention to detail is astounding! I love how you're able to pack so much in and keep it all clear at the same time.
I'm a tad confused story-wise. Here's how I'm reading it:
1) MJ has just said goodbye to Peter/SPidey who's swinging away.
2) She's sad/introspective/comtemplative as she turns away, looking down.
3) She walks through the rainy city.
4) She approaches a store/apartment building...
5) ...and goes in.
Is that about right?
Why is Spidey hanging around in Panel 4?
MightyMatt has some good points storytelling-wise. I have no real problem with the way Panel 2 is drawn, though. I really like this page and would definitely like to see the rest of your pages.
06-18-2003, 07:38 AM
I really like you background scenery. Makes me jealous, cause I suck at drawing that.:eek:
I don´t read it like Cuddly does. For me it goes something
1. MJ is on her way somewhere, and she looks up in the air knowing that Spiderman is with her. Maybe she´s merly sensing
him and he is watching over her or something.
2. MJ looks down..feeling calm knowing this.
3.She walks to the destination, Spiderman constantly on her trail.
Overall I think it looks great!:)
06-18-2003, 10:09 AM
You have a tagent problem between the pole in panel 1 and the side of the building in panel 3. It plays some serious games with my eye and mind....
I like your backgrounds, though they seem to be a little too much to handle.
I can see the story from both Zoidberg's and Cuddly's perspective. I'd need the letters to be sure.
This is a very solid page, very clean. I like your style.
06-18-2003, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by Agent Fire
You have a tagent problem between the pole in panel 1 and the side of the building in panel 3. It plays some serious games with my eye and mind....
This wouldn't really be considered a "tangent", as that requires lines to be touching one another. This would fall under the category of a "line-up". Definitely distracting. And it's not just the left side of the bridge support and wall, but also the right side of the support and the border of panel 3. Then there is the right side of Panel 4 and Mary Jane's arm from panel 1 forming a similar line-up. Then there is the vertical line on the right side of the door in panel 5 that is lining up with the pole above it in panel 1.
Compositionally, I think these are making the intricate linework more confusing than it would be otherwise. Overall, though, I agree that it's very well drawn. I wish I could motivate myself to draw backgrounds like that.
One other thing I just noticed... I tried finding your vanishing points by following the lines of the buildings in the background, but they just don't seem to be lining up. For example, the left side of the building right under Spidey is definitely going to a different vanishing point than the building to the right of it. And the building below those two, the one right above the train, is going to yet another VP. So you might want to tighten those up too.
Regarding the story-telling, it is hard to read her expression in panel 2. Because she's not smiling at all, and her eyes look closed in pain, I would lean toward Cuddly's interpretation. But Zoidberg's seems to be the more accurate one. If so, maybe give her a hint of a smile in panel 2 so we know how she's feeling.
Great job overall. I really like it.
06-18-2003, 02:31 PM
Oh, man... i didn't even notice the tangents between panels until you guys mentioned it... I'll definately have to do something about that cause that's all I see now. As for the story, you guys are pretty close, but I won't go into that until I crank out page 2... then it should all make sense... hopefully.
06-18-2003, 11:32 PM
Nice work. Anyone that can start this kind of work and finishes it is awsome to me. I hate trying to sequential art because i only do about one or two frames and then I get tired of it. Much "P's".
06-19-2003, 10:33 AM
Your stuffs really coming along! This is a really nice page, with lots of attention to detail throughout. Lazy, you are not.:) As you probably know, I usually critique and comment on sequential art panel by panel, but sometimes I'll also use this format:
THE GOOD: Lots of detail and the setting is established particularly well. Nice camera shots and angles. A good mix of mediums, zooms and pan backs. Decent storytelling.
THE BAD: When it comes to lighting, you skimp out big time, and are even a little inconsistant, which is too bad, because considering the amount of detail, this page could surely benefit from good strong lighting. In panel one there's a heavy black shadow under the train bridge, but there's no indication of such a shadow under MJ's umbrella, chin, hands, etc. In panel two her umbrella has a shadow underneath, but she there's, again, no consistancy. She hasn't a shadow under her chin, arms, hands, and there isn't even a cast shadow from the umbrella.:confused: You have to have some sort of consistancy, Astrotrain. It's odd that you put so much effort into all this wonderful detail, yet don't follow through on the lighting. It's the only real Achilles' Heel on the entire page.
The only other minor thing I'll point out is in regards to panel one and two. Panel two is inset too high, and breaks up the page flow. The idea is for the viewer's eye to go from left to right and down. Here, the viewer's eye has to go from Spidey, to MJ in panel one, and then up to MJ in panel two. It would really have been a lot nicer if the viewer's eye were drawn down towards the next tier of panels instead of upward, away from them.
THE UGLY: The bad "line-up" between the support beam in panel one and the edge of the building in panel three...but to be honest, there's NOTHING ugly on this page. This page is very good, and with consistant lighting, could be considered an excellent page!
One of the things you might want to take into consideration in the future, Astronin, is the theory of DARK TO LIGHT. It's the notion that you have the objects in the foreground the most in shadow and most detailed, the objects in the middle ground slightly lighter and detailed (more of a gray), and the objects in the background the lightest and least detailed. This will help you attain the depth and dimension you desire.
Looking great, so keep up the good work!
06-23-2003, 11:11 PM
Added page 2. Look for page 3 later this week.
06-23-2003, 11:52 PM
I am really enjoying what you have here artronin....
I think page 2 surpasses page 1 by far, in fact I enjoyed looking over it thoroughly several times just to enjoy what you have going on around MJ.
Positive points...once more with the backgrounds and the interaction in the backgrounds...wonderful! I can say no more
I guess I am enjoying the most of it, but with good comments over I have to give my little crits now....
panel 3...the right eye looks a little off, I am not sure what it is about it. And the ring is a little unbelievable (for all the intricate parts in this book, the ring actually looks rushed as if there was not too much thought in it) but that is just nit-picking
My last crit is also nit-pick, but that is because this is done quite well, but the ring has vanished on the last panel. It seems like everything was well thought out and I find it humorous to see Moe as the bartender.
I eagerly await page 3
06-23-2003, 11:59 PM
Great work man. I think it all looks good.
Ok I see Moe Syzlak as the bartender and even Zoidberg
hanging on a painting in the background!!!! That ROCKS! :D
06-26-2003, 03:36 PM
Page three is here. Look for another page soon!
06-27-2003, 12:29 AM
I am digging this story ya got going, HOWEVER I think the last panel on page three could be a little more dynamic, after all it is the largest panel on the page and the straight forward look just doesn't give that kick to the face that a new angle/more dynamic pose would give...
The first panel is somewhat questionable as far as MJs expression...
06-27-2003, 05:01 PM
O.K here's my 2 cents.
You really really need some spot blacks here.
You're really good as an artist but you need to work on your plotting because why would Spidey let M.J. go into a bar if he knew something was up? Why would M.J. go into a bar period? Is she an alchoholic? Is she looking for attention? These questions sound stupid but thats whats comes to mind when I look at these.
Alot of people have critiqued page one so I'll go ahead with the preceding pages.
Page 2- Panel 1-Spot blacks! For instance shadows under the bar shelf to the left, under the bottles, under the shelf trim, under the bartenders arm, under the bar where the shot glasses are, under the guy drinking a beer, a cast shadow from the tabsco sauce, and shadows under the light fixtures at the top right. Figure out a light source and go from there.
Panel 2- The guy drinking the beers right arm doesn't look right. It doesn't look natural. It looks too stiff. A great tool to have is a digital camera. Take a picture of someone in that postition download to your P.C. and wa la! Instant reference. The front door looks too close in relation to the first panel. The collar on M.J.'s rain coat is too small. It should be bigger. Look at real rain coats. M.J.'s nose is too long and needs to come in more. She also needs a dimpled chin. Spot blacks on the wall trims on each side of the panel.
Panel 3- M.J.'s face is too big in porportion compared to her hands. You need to work on her face here. Her nose is too long. Look at the classic John Romita Sr. M.J. Now that's M.J. Spot blacks on her left collar and the inside of
her right sleeve.
Panel 4- This inset panel isn't working for me and is creating a tangent with the bartender in panel 5. I don't know. I would make this a regular panel.
Some shadows under M.J. and the beer dude would be nice.
Panel 5- This panel looks flat. Compared to the pictures on the wall the bar doesn't look straight. Use a T- square with a triangle or straight edge.
Spot blacks under M.J.'s chin and under the bar.
Panels 6 & 7- I have no idea whats going on here.
Page 3- Panel-1- You really need to turn M.J.'s head here because I'm getting the impression that The Rhino is crashing through where the bartender is in the next panel. Spot blacks under M.J.'s chin.
Panel 2- This panel looks pretty good but all the debri is the same size. Vary the size of your debri. Show some BIG pieces of wood and glass coming at us. Some spot blacks under the Rhinos nose and chin.
Panel 3- Because of the first panel it looks like M.J. is looking to where the bartender was. Have some debri flying in this panel.
Panel 4- The money shot. This panel just doesn't look dynamic enough. You should have the rhino's fist coming at the viewer. Spidey looks like he's enjoying a piggy back ride. You should have Spidey's arm locked around the Rhino's neck. M.J.'s right arm looks detatched from her body. Again you should vary the size of the debri. Have some bottles coming at us. I would have a feild day here with the spot blacks.
My advice to you would be to hit the convention circuit. Show your stuff to the pros and get their input.
Good luck with this.
06-27-2003, 05:51 PM
fusciart - Thanks for taking out the time to offer so many comments and crtis. You mentioned a lot of stuff I missed, no one else has caught, and simply offered some good suggetions towards a stronger page. I agree about Mary Jane's nose being too long at times, and the last panel in page three being kinda weak. I will try and make the appropriate changes sooner or later.
As for spotting blacks, I know there are people who can't stand a page with no shadows and no blacks. I seem to constantly have to argue it's my style, but a number of my favorite artists use little to no blacks. Geoff Darrow, Scott Kolins, even Salvador Larroca has begun to use little to no shadowing.
I've been hitting the comic conventions for the past couple years and have yet to have a single editor knock me for not spotting blacks. At the recent Wizard-con in Philly I showed my portfolio around and the only comment I got regarding the subject was Bart Sears telling me not to do it. He commented about the pages I took along where I had spotted some blacks and said that it went against my style and when I try to spot blacks it only takes away from it and makes my work weaker. So I dunno...
Anyways, thanks again for your comments, and with eveyone's suggestions I hope to continue improving my work.
06-29-2003, 11:17 AM
Love the detail. Your work reminds me of Geof Darrow.
The only problem I have is when the Rhino smashes through the door into the bar, it should be a lot more dramatic rather than just one panel up in the corner of the page.
06-30-2003, 02:38 AM
Did anybody notice that the bar tender looks suspiciously like Moe from the Simpsons?
06-30-2003, 08:16 PM
Nice pages, man! Fun with perspective!
You have a very nice, clean style here, and although a lot of people say that you need more shading, but I think that's only one way to solve your real problem, which is defining your focal point. You have a whole lot of stuff going on and it all washes out into an even gray, especially on page one panel one. There are some tricks you can use to solve this problem and still keep your clean line quality, for instance knowing when to switch between thick and thin lines, or contrasting areas of high detail against areas of little or no detail (which would create a sort of shading). You do these in some panels, like the last three on page one and the first on page two, which I think are your strongest four panels.
I don't have a problem with your story telling like some seem to have. It seems to me MJ's suposed to meet Peter at a bar, and Pete's late (as usual), someone hits on her, she says she's married, the guy backs off, and before Peter can go inside to meet her he is attacked by the Rhino.
There are a few panels that I don't think are placed very well, panel 2 on page 1, and panel 4 on page 2. They're just to intrusive on the other panels around them and do wierd things for the panels timeing, not to mention it's composition. A good rule of thumb is that if there's no reason to overlap panels, don't do it. You do the same thing with panel one page three, but it works because panel two interupts it. It overlaps in time, therefore it overlaps in space.
Actually, you may want to just get rid of panel 2 on page 1, since it doesn't have any information in it that we couldn't gather from the previous panel, and it would give you more room to show off that perspective. Also panels 6 and 7 on page two are either a little to similar or a little to different. If you wanted them to be similar you should use the same size panels, but if you want them to be different you should change camera angles between them.
Another thing to point out is that there are definitely some anatomy problems you're working with. It looks like you're saying "this is what a nose looks like, so this is what I'm going to draw" without doublechecking if that's actually the way it should apear from that angle, or "that's what a hand looks like, so that's what I'll draw" without finding out what is the natural position for a hand in that situation. This is a problem especially on page two and the last panel of page three. Just check some photo reference every now and then, or even just look in a mirror.
Well, all in all, you have some things to work on, but you also have some things going for you, so keep it up and you'll be able to pull out something really great.
07-01-2003, 10:39 PM
Not only is Moe in there so is Hank hill and I think the mumbling guy from King o the Hill. You kept the camera in the right place for almost all of the panels in all the pages except the one where she's going up or down the stairs.
07-11-2003, 01:23 AM
Here's page 4!
07-11-2003, 01:44 AM
Hmmm...I don't know if this is going to make sense at all, but when I look at this I am trying to visualize how Spidey gets from the position of panel 1 to panel 2 and from panel 2 to panel 3. It just looks like something is missing between 1 and 2. I also wonder why there are no webs shot from spidey's shooter in panel 2 since he is doing the "thwip" hand gesture.
The 3rd panel is the strongest...I love the angle and the placement of the characters in the panel.
07-12-2003, 08:36 AM
It seems to me that Spider-Man flips over Rhino's shoulder and lands on the counter. Makes sense to me. But I do think there should be webbing in panel two, since he's doing the web shooter thing.
Artronin, I like the way you draw Spidey.
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