my dodgy sequential

[latino_legend]

this is a page im doing..well done now..but ive started doing sequentials now at an early age so i can allow plenty of room for improvements...

u guys will probably tear this apart, and damn, go ahead if u want. as long as it helps me i dont mind.
i feel stooopid posting crappy sequentials like this, but i need the help!
so please crit or watever coz all i wanna do is get better. thanks...

http://www.animotions.com/portal/modules/Gallery/gallery/cc01/3d01/1054274204.jpg

[tomek]

when you're open to constructive crits and comments, that's the right place. so here are my crits: you should work on your anatomy (like most of us). don't use comics for reference, especially when you drawing faces and hands. there's a list with good reference books posted in this forum. and do clear panel borders. editors look for things like profesionalism and it starts with using a t-square for panel borders.
hope it helps, and keep posting!

[xadrian]

A minor thing but it will help with story telling; watch your 180° rule. Your camera angles shouldn't stray too much from within 180°, so if you imagine your scene taking place in a single location, like this one, it takes place is a large sphere. You camera should remain in only half of that sphere. This helps keep characters established in a location and the movement of the panels.

In your page here, you established the sphere with the first shot of the guy with the rocks, the next shot also helps. The third shot helps again but setting a maximum radius, but then panel for goes completely the other way. To keep within the 180, I would have put the curly head guy on the other side of the couch. That one panel change could make the difference between a flowing page and a page a reader has to think about too much.

Also remember to use different Y axis angles (worm's eye, bird's eye) straight on shots work originally to establish a character, but only use them if you have to, tilt the panel, look at someone from his kneecap or the ceiling fan. But you've got a good in and out pattern here already so keep that.

[EddieChingLives]

What's the plot? Work on using every panel to it's full potential. Each panel must stand alone.

Panel by panel breakdown...
1)
I can't tell what's going on here. The close-up of the table might be clearer if you drew the edge of the table. And please work on drawing hands.
2)
Use the basic shapes. That chair in the upper left panel is weak. Use reference from furnature ads in the sunday newspaper. Try to sketch every room you can. Every little bit helps. You're angle on this establishing shot isn't working for you. It's hard to even tell that there's anyone on the couch, let alone the gems on the couch. It might be best if you just skipped this panel and went strait to panel number three.
3)
Not too bad. Probably the best panel on the page. A nice shot establihsing the spacial relationships with the two guys and the stones or gems. So I would use this shot to come up with the other shots. So if you took a camera and wanted to do a close-up of the guy on the left...
4)
And you get this angle, that means you are doing a point of view shot. Nice. Not a bad idea. But if you do a close-up shot of the other guy in a point of view shot, his head should be mirrored from that which you drew in the last panel.
5)
Not a bad shot, but it is the exact opposite angle from the first panel, which may be confusing. But if you had to change an angle on one of them, I would keep this angle and change the first panel.
6)
It's kind of confusing to put this guys head in the same direction. You should mirror this panel (as mentioned above) because it kind of looks like the guy in the first panel just put on sun-glasses. So I hope I don't confuse you, KEEP PANEL 4'S ANGLE AND MIRROR THIS PANELS. Or it would probably work best if you want to keep this angle, you drew his buddy in the background so the readers know where he is. A nice two shot. Yeah, that'd be better, since it would be easier for the transition between the last two panels. Go for a two shot here. Same angle.

So in conclusion. Work on hands and drawing rooms and blah blah blah.

But also, think about drawing like how you would film a movie. If you draw a point of view shot, make sure you keep the angles right. And make sure you add the details in every panel so the reader is not confused where these angles are comming from. Keep the panel to panel transitions clean and easy so the readers can concentrate on the story. If the readers get confused in any way, it takes them out of the story, and that means you aren't doing your job to it's full effectiveness.

Panels 1,2, and 6 need fixing.

[Popninja]

Originally posted by EddieChingLives
Panels 1,2, and 6 need fixing.

ALL of the panels need fixing.

You know, someone at GD brought up C&C and asked why we do it. I didn't respond to this thread because, for the most part, I really don't give crits. There are many reasons for this, but the main reason is this sequential page right here. It's very frustrating to see things like this, because to crit this is impossible, simply because you don't have any real general art knowledge.

I checked your profile and you are really really young.

Listen, latino_legend, what's important here is that you are so young that you have nowhere to go but up. You CAN get better, and odds are if you take the following advice, you WILL get better. Here's my advice, and strangely enough, I've given you this advice already:

Abandon sequentials for right now. Don't do them. Start just drawing. You have A LOT of learning to do and it will take time. You need to put in that time...learning how to draw. All of the advice you read on this thread, about learning anatomy by finding good reference books and what not, please follow that. Right now, your work is really not that good at all. You need to put in the time drawing and drawing and drawing and drawing. When it comes to doing sequentials, before you ever start them, you should have general knowledge about how to draw. Things like couches and doors and tables and chairs and phones and cars and all that shit. Learn to draw this stuff first. Log off and go outside with a sketchbook, and then draw.

I can't stress this enough. Stop doing sequentials and start just drawing. Practice is the key and you need a lot of it.

[latino_legend]

eddie ching-thanks heaps for the insightful crit, i will work towards maximising my comic pages and camera anges, and i will take into account everything u said.

xadrian-great, i never thought of that, thats a good point u make.

tomek-im still waiting for my new drawing board to arrive (including a t square).

[M Gully]

I know I'm new here but in my opinion Lat, Some of these guys have some real bad advice. Keep the camra angle at 180? Whatever. Don't draw sequentials? That's some real bad advice. You practice your weekness. You don't start doing sequentials after you master the table or the human head or perspective. You will be old as Bob Hope if you go that route. Your stuff looks good in my book. Yeah you need practice but who don't? If you Draw that same page five times you will learn something everytime. People say things like " Draw from real life" And "After you know the rules, you can break them". Most people are saying stuff that they heard somewhere. I don't care if it's an editor from Marvel. Me personally, If you can't draw better than me, Or give me a job. You shouldn't do most of the talking. Some of these guys give advice that their art can't back-up. He must don't really understand what he is saying. If he did he will draw that way. Or he is lazy. In any event He should probably keep his mouth shut. If my commits make some of you mad, Good then I'm talking to you. How are you going to give advice on something you don't understand? Lat keep it up. Draw the hard stuff, after a while it won't be hard anymore. Find what works for you.

Some of you take comics way too seriously! A maxium radius? Give me a break!

[latino_legend]

popninja- dude, what the ****?!
Comic pages ARE my WEAKNESS. I understand that. YES, my pages arent the best. SO WHAT?!

Does that mean i should quit? soes that mean, just because some of the things in it arent right, i should quit? NO!!!!!! i will never be stopped by people like you. never. What u said is extremely discouraging. I'm an aspiring artist. I wanna draw comics because i like them, and i love drawing them. So thats exactly what I'm doing now. Yeh, OK maybe I should draw from real life, but still, YOU CAN'T GET BETTER IF YOU QUIT! If i just concentrate on perfecting everything whats the damn point if I can't draw a page.

What I'm trying to say is, shit man, my work ain't anywhere near perfect. but the whole point of posting it here is so I can improve. How can i improve if i stop? Tell me, coz i'd really like to know. Of course my anatomy ain't perfect, but that will hopfully get better as the years go by.

I take gully's advice seriously, hes a pro at the moment and hes an awesome artist. He's been where I am before, and he knows what I'm going through. More importantly, hes where i want to go- become a pro, and so thats why I think he's right.

Often the best artists are the most experienced. I want to GAIN experience in sequentials, get practice, and learn from my mistakes so i can get better.

[EddieChingLives]

I agree with most of what M Gully has said with the exception of the 180 degree rule.

There is never any harm in doing sequentials. Practice makes perfect. That's what these boards are for.

You have to get thru so many bad drawings before you do a good one. Practice makes perfect, so I don't know why you shouldn't attempt sequentials yet. It shouldn't matter what level you're at.

Sequences are actually better, because it forces you to draw different angles then the average pin-up. A six panel page, you have six frames instead of one, so you're saving trees.

But the 180 degree rule has been backed up by many other sources, including Scott McDANIAL, who originally introduced it on wizardworld.com when it had cool stuff on it. Look at a basketball game. They only film it from one side of the stands. That way, it doesn't confuse the viewer.

Also, think of it like a stage at a play. That's what helped the great Will Eisner. He grew up helping out at the theatre, so he knows all the tricks they do in creating depth and rooms and all different types of sets. Also, when you are sitting in an audience, you can't go on the set to get a different angle, you're stuck at your point of view, so the only thing that changes is your focal point. Which you can call these focal points INSERT SHOTS and the whole stage an ESTABLISHMENT SHOT.

[latino_legend]

i mite go and do some research on this 180 rule, ive never heard of it before.

[Paul M.]

Does anyone think we will EVER see M Gully again?


:rolleyes:

pop has a point, there are a lot of flaws in your artwork that are hard to overlook while giving the page a crit.

What he said was harsh, but it makes sense. I doubt he was making fun of you or anything like that.

[latino_legend]

yeh it does have a lot of flaws, but i dont think i should give up drawing sequentials just beacasue it has flaws in it.

[Paul M.]

You're taking it the wrong way. Don't give up sequentials forever. But it would be wise to invest more time with the basics first.

[Popninja]

Originally posted by M Gully
Yeah you need practice...Draw the hard stuff, after a while it won't be hard anymore.

Sound advice.

And latino_legend, I didn't tell you to quit. I said put the sequentials to the side for now, and learn to draw.

Mario Gully is gifted, obviously. Is he a pro? I dunno, I haven't seen Anthill Studios in my Previews, so I'm not sure. But he is very good, I'll give him that. I have been a pro, in the past, for a legitimate company and I have a little bit of knowledge when it comes to comics. Hell, I've been where you are before.

Your biggest problem seems to be your inability to deal with criticism. While my post may have been harsh, you'll hear a hell of a lot worse in your future, even when you get good.

Read my initial response post again. Never quit drawing. I would never advise that. But I think you are jumping ahead. I truly feel that you need to gain some basic knowledge BEFORE you begin working on sequentials. That's my advice and I'm sticking to it.

[latino_legend]

I truly feel that you need to gain some basic knowledge BEFORE you begin working on sequentials. That's my advice and I'm sticking to it.

I will take that into consideration next time

[M Gully]

I Agree with Ed, But I wouldn't tell some body about something like the 180 fresh out of the water. My Opinion. The mamimum radius is a long drawn out term for where the focus point of the readers eye hits on a panel on a page. You can do better by drawing a imaginary line from the upper left hand corner to the bottom right hand corner. Draw another line from the upper right hand corner until it hit the first line you drew. Where they meet you put an "x". Thus you have your focal point. Will Eisner.

[tomek]

i'm sorry latino_legend, but as long as you're posting your art in a public internet forum, you must be very tough... that's what i've learned here. and be sure, when you keep posting you learn how to handle harsh crits.
by the way: i posted my first stuff in february and i'm signing my first contract as a pro artist next week...

[Nar]

Hey Nar here, just wanted to say Latino, YOU JUST KEEP AT IT!!!
Dont stop what your doing. You have your own formula. Your own vibe .... rythem.
I've seen your art a while back, and i did notice alot of improvements, so you're not going in circles and thats a great sign bud.
Drawing sequentials is definitely a superb way of learning how to draw anything in general. Never forget that. For starters, drawing comic sequentials will surely force you to learn not only how to handle anatomy and blah blah, but perspectives on vehicles, buildings, people, animals and anything else you can think of to build a near perfect atmosphere to the universe you're trying to convey, (create).
I see you've acknowledged yourself as beginner, and you know where you're at. Yes, you're young, and thats ROCKIN' only because I think, personally, by the time you hit a big gig wether it spawns next year or the year after etc, you will definitely have a confidence (no big headed confidence) but a positive view of your own skills.
Im proud to know a youngster like you bud. ;cap;
I have faith you will learn anatomy back to back as you keep at it with those sequentials. From where I stand, I see definite potential.
I think this page you posted can use some tweaking, but again, i still see alot of improvement and there will always be room for improvement no matter how good you are ;) these are comics, have fun with them, dont bore yourself, and give em hell!

ps: M Gully's rockin, we'll be seeing alot more of his stuff soon i believe. ;)

[MankindRam]

Originally posted by Nar
Hey Nar here, just wanted to say Latino, YOU JUST KEEP AT IT!!!
Dont stop what your doing. You have your own formula. Your own vibe .... rythem.
I've seen your art a while back, and i did notice alot of improvements, so you're not going in circles and thats a great sign bud.
Drawing sequentials is definitely a superb way of learning how to draw anything in general. Never forget that. For starters, drawing comic sequentials will surely force you to learn not only how to handle anatomy and blah blah, but perspectives on vehicles, buildings, people, animals and anything else you can think of to build a near perfect atmosphere to the universe you're trying to convey, (create).
I see you've acknowledged yourself as beginner, and you know where you're at. Yes, you're young, and thats ROCKIN' only because I think, personally, by the time you hit a big gig wether it spawns next year or the year after etc, you will definitely have a confidence (no big headed confidence) but a positive view of your own skills.
Im proud to know a youngster like you bud. ;cap;
I have faith you will learn anatomy back to back as you keep at it with those sequentials. From where I stand, I see definite potential.
I think this page you posted can use some tweaking, but again, i still see alot of improvement and there will always be room for improvement no matter how good you are ;) these are comics, have fun with them, dont bore yourself, and give em hell!

ps: M Gully's rockin, we'll be seeing alot more of his stuff soon i believe. ;)

What he said. You have improved but still HAVE improvement. I went through this too so just sit back a relax. I'm 23 and I'm still learning.

Ram

[Bruce Lee]

latino_legend,

I haven't read the other comments, but I'll attempt to offer some advice and criticisms on each panel here.

Panel One: I like the idea of this panel. Starting off with a view from overhead ("birdseye" POV) is a pretty good idea, because it immediately grabs the viewer's attention. However, for the sake of story flow, I suggest that you have the hands coming out diagonally from the left side of the panel. By placing the hands this way, the viewer's eye will be lead across the panel to the next. Since we of the West read from left to right, a flow of eye movement is thus established this way.

Panel Two: Okay. Panel two has some problems in both the storytelling and drawing departments. The problem with the storytelling is that from this angle, the reader can not see that the guy on the couch is the guy messing with the rocks in panel one. It's generally a good idea to reinforce your establishing shots (whether you're establishing people, places, or whatever) as early as possible, or you will run the risk of confusing your reader. A better set up would be to placed the camera view point to the side, so that we could clearly see the guy sitting on the couch, make the connection that he is the fellow with the ring of rocks, and also from this POV you could still successfully introduce the guy at the door. It's ALWAYS a good idea to reinforce your storytelling, and sometimes, you'll even need to hit the readers over the head with what should be the obvious.

From a drawing standpoint, some of the perspective does indeed need some reworking. Things along the left wall look particular weird. The (closet?) door looks both too small, and too wide to be a normal doorway. The armchair looks very flat, lacking dimension in part, because it's not positioned along the proper perspective grid lines. The openned door inwhich the one fellow is standing looks too slanted because the perspectibe is too extreme. All of this is compounded by the fact that the room looks rather drab. A few pictures along the walls, a floor lamp, and other typical household features would go a long way to making this room look more fleshed out. Use some reference material if necessary, but something needs to be done to make this room look more convincing. Btw, the coffee table is wwwaaaayyy too short.:eek:

Panel Three: Alrighty. Here we finally get a good look at the two characters in detail. The basic drawing comes up a little short here too, I'm afraid. The anatomy of the two guys is a little odd.

The guy with the glasses--his shoulders are too low. His forearm is too stubby, and his closed, right hand looks smaller than that of his left. Due to the way his belt is drawn, he doesn't look to be truly sitting on the couch. Curve the belt downward more (as if it's being viewed from overhead --which it is). I'm not sure what the vertical lines above his head are supposed to represent here, but as they fall right over his head, they are quite distracting. :(

The fellow who has just sat down-- He's okay, but his left hand looks a little unnaturaly posed, and it's never a great idea to crop off arms with panel borders. Weird cropping like that can pull a reader right out of the story that's being told, so avoid such things.

Panel Four: This panel's kind of odd in the drawing too. Objects in the foreground need to look bigger than objects in the background, yet the head of the guy in the background dwarfs the fellow's noggin in the foreground here.

Another odd bit of drawing occurs in with the background guy's face. The top part of his head--the eyes, nose, etc--are drawn at a 3/4 view, yet his mouth seems to be drawn on a different plane. Almost a profile view.:confused: That's just comes off as being very strange looking, and is something that draws the reader's attention instantly. The character should probably be looking at the guy next to him also, I'd imagine.

That's a nicely drawn hand, but it's sort of unnatural to see the guy's hand posed like this. I'm not sure what emotion or message this hand is trying to convey here. Like expressions, hands play an important role in getting things across to readers, but I'm sort of lost here.

Okay. I hope my critiquing has been beneficial to you. For a young fellow, you didn't do too poorly at all. It's good that you're starting early, because it takes years to master sequential storytelling, and I have my doubts as to whether or not it can ever really be mastered by anyone. Even the great storytellers of the medium like Alex Toth, Will Eisner, and many others continue to struggle with the medium, growing and exploring. I hope you will consider some of the things I've said, and my best of luck to you. I look forward to seeing more of your sequential art posted here.

Loston
http://www.lostonwallace.com

[latino_legend]

thanks bruce lee, i have to be a lot more careful with my anatomy next time, i can understand the things u mentioned. I pretty much get what your saying here, and i really have to improve on my basic shapes, faces and gestures a lot more so the reader can underrstand whats going on. also my perspective grids need a little more refining and stuff so i'll try and keep that in mind for page 4, ive already done page three.