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violentpip
04-23-2003, 01:16 AM
all right let me lay this out flat for everyone i've got this great story layed out in front of me and a great artist to do the work on it. sounds nice right. only one problem my artist thinks everything he does looks like crap, which it certainly does not. as a writer is there any way for me to get him off his ass.

Mark
04-23-2003, 01:45 AM
Tell him that it is impossible to objectively evaluate one's own work. You're simply too close to your own work to judge it accurately. That's one of the reasons why editors exist. Even the office secretary can catch in a few minutes things you didn't catch in hours of self-editing.

It's also the reason why some really wretched artists and writers think their work is the stuff of genius, while some truly outstanding talents are plagued with feelings of inadequacy and failure.

But note--it's probably his obsessive self-criticism that has caused him to improve his craft to the point where it looks as good as it does. You don't want to talk him into going to the other extreme of ceasing to develop as an artist.

Krosis
04-23-2003, 03:34 AM
Who's the artist Pip?

-cheers

Vendetta
04-23-2003, 03:39 AM
there is no way to get an artist to work...

I'm in the EXACT same situation that you are in. This guy has even been told by the likes of JRjr that his work is professional quality. But... does he believe? Does he draw? Only just enough to hurt me with how close we are. He doesn't intent to hurt me, but it just hurts to see his occasional drawings of this or that and NOT drawings for our first issue.... hell... just one panel a week and we would have a completed issue now

needless to say, I wish for this guy to get going but am also on the hunt for another more productive artist.

Krosis
04-23-2003, 03:42 AM
Originally posted by Mark
...It's also the reason why some really wretched artists and writers think their work is the stuff of genius...

Cough! CoughArus GainsCough!

sorry.. has nothing really to do with this discussion but Pip knows who I mean.. ;)

Popninja
04-23-2003, 04:14 AM
Originally posted by violentpip
only one problem my artist thinks everything he does looks like crap, which it certainly does not. as a writer is there any way for me to get him off his ass.

Nope, there isn't. And it isn't your job to do so. Bottom line, you have a story that needs to be drawn, so find someone competent to draw it. Don't let dead weight drag you down. Cut the rope, rise to the surface, swim to shore and look for another ship.

violentpip
04-23-2003, 04:16 AM
the artist is my roommate matt and he is most deffinatively the shit however he lacks confidence

Popninja
04-23-2003, 04:23 AM
"The shit" he may be, but the confidence that he is lacking will not come from his roommate. You can tell him that he is "the shit" everyday of his life, but until he believes it himself, he will continue to sit around and do nothing.

Now, you are another matter. You are a writer, or so you say. Do you lack confidence? Because if you are confident in YOUR abilities, do as I said and find someone competent to get your story going.

Friendship is cool and all, but if life, you have to do what you have to do...FOR YOU.

Krosis
04-23-2003, 05:33 AM
Originally posted by violentpip
the artist is my roommate matt and he is most deffinatively the shit however he lacks confidence

For a guy with a "god"(tm) complex he sure has a low opinion of his art abilities.. I've seen his stuff.. it's good, great, awesome.. never seen a sequential from him.. but what I've seen is good.

as a side note.. VPip and this guy Matt are both friends of mine..

-cheers

Rage Overfox
04-23-2003, 10:05 AM
I've told both VPip and Krosis that we need an intervention to get Matt off his kiester and do something with his talent. Maybe ths can be the first step in this direction. :)

I know Matt, and have seen his art develop. He is extremely talented, and only shows signs of getting better. He just tosses off attempts to get him to produce with " I'm not serious about it"...and " It's just a hobby..". It does get frustrating when you see someone with obvious talent wasting it. he is also possibly the most hard-headed individual I have ever met....next to Krosis (( who luvs ya, buddy? )).

I guess to me, the question is how does a writer motivate his artist besides the obvious "do it or your off the project" scenario. As harsh as it seems, i agree with Popninja to an extent, or atleast my business side does.

Any suggestions?

(( And if you have 'em, please forward same to my writer....i need a good swift one in the boo-tay from time to time myself!! ))

-Damion-
a.k.a RealmerX

xadrian
04-23-2003, 04:20 PM
I'm a little dismayed about this. How's this for an angle, tell him his waisting good talent by not doing anything meaningful with it and if he doesn't get off his ass you're not going to baby him. He's a big boy, if he's not serious, find someone who is.

In all honestly, that attitude toward non-committals can really save you or really hurt him. He may snap out of his "justahobbyfunklazymofo" rut and do something or he may get his feelings hurt. Either way you win at least, you get him to work or you cut him lose.

But don't tell him he's the shit if he's not doing anything with it. I work very hard in what little time I have and I don't get a lot done. If he's talented and not Using It For Good, I have no sympathy for him. Dead weight.

Vendetta
04-23-2003, 07:52 PM
heh.

When my artist says that he "isn't good enough" I tell him "Yeah, but if you just drew regularly, you would be."

heh

xadrian
04-23-2003, 08:06 PM
Originally posted by Vendetta
heh.

When my artist says that he "isn't good enough" I tell him "Yeah, but if you just drew regularly, you would be."

heh

Perfect response.

I don't know how many hockey fans are out there, but a little anecdote would be there was a goalie playing for the Canadiens that had a unique style but a bad attitude. His coach asked if he needed a pillow and matress with him for all the flopping around he did. This fired him up to the point where he worked tirelessly to perfect a style that nearly all up and coming goalies use today. His name is Patrick Roy.

Had he just said, "Yeah I'm sorry about being a spase in the net" he wouldn't have made anything of himself and we'd be left with all these records still unbroken. But he worked at it and now he's an entire chapter in history.

I guess that's only useful if your friend is a hockey fan.

Mark
04-23-2003, 10:35 PM
Originally posted by Rage Overfox
I guess to me, the question is how does a writer motivate his artist besides the obvious "do it or your off the project" scenario. As harsh as it seems, i agree with Popninja to an extent, or atleast my business side does.

Any suggestions?



Perhaps the problem isn't really one of the artist lacking confidence in his own abilities. Perhaps the artist hasn't been sold on the project.

If the artist fell in love with the characters, the story world, and the the events of the story, he might feel impelled to do whatever it took to bring it to life in pictures.

Is the artist on the project because he wants to be, or because he feels it's something he "should" do, or is somehow expected to do?

banshee
04-23-2003, 11:34 PM
well, Cuddly goes thru similar cycles too but I smack him into shape LOL j-k

No, seriously. Is his confidence lacking in his story telling ability, such as sequentials? Or he feels he needs to improve certain areas etc? Or does he feel uninspired by the project? (as someone said somewhere lol)

well, I know this sounds like promoting here LOL Why doesnt he try some of the CM assignments, he shld get both positive and constructive feedback, that mite help him build up his confidence. he prob thinks you being his roomie and a good friend you are biased towards the quality of his art. So why not encourage him to try CM? I dont know if it will help or not but its worth a shot, maybe. Either way, it improves his story telling among other aspects of his artwork.

Another option is to write stuff for him to draw, many artists will feel excited to draw when they read a script that just springs out at them and gets em willing to "create".

Find out the underlying issues behind his relunctance and maybe things will work out for the better. If not, time to find another artist. Give him a chance but if he's really not keen or up to it, sentimentality aside, you'd hv to look out for other talent.

Hope this helps :)

later days
B.

Vendetta
04-24-2003, 12:26 AM
I still vote for the "Ritual Beatings" clause

every artist should be beat regularly until he/she produces work :p

Popninja
04-24-2003, 02:11 AM
Originally posted by Mark
Perhaps the problem isn't really one of the artist lacking confidence in his own abilities. Perhaps the artist hasn't been sold on the project.

If the artist fell in love with the characters, the story world, and the the events of the story, he might feel impelled to do whatever it took to bring it to life in pictures.

Is the artist on the project because he wants to be, or because he feels it's something he "should" do, or is somehow expected to do?

Well, if that is in fact the case, then I would think it would be important for the artist to express this view to the writer. After all, why waste the writer's time if the artist doesn't like his story?

The writer shouldn't have to change his story to suit the artist. If the writer has confidence in his story, it is in his best interest to find an artist that can do the job. It's just that simple.

Popninja
04-24-2003, 02:17 AM
Originally posted by banshee
Another option is to write stuff for him to draw, many artists will feel excited to draw when they read a script that just springs out at them and gets em willing to "create".

This just doesn't seem like a viable option to me(see my above post). From what I've read, the writer has what he considers a "great story" all ready to go. If his roommate is NOT motivated to draw the story because he doesn't like the story, then he needs to let the writer know this. But the way I understand it is that this artist just doesn't draw much at all. Either way, like I said above, if the writer wants his story visualized, he needs to find an artist that can do the job. I mean, seriously, how many artists have writers that write stories custom made to get them excited to draw. If any artist expects that, he or she is living in a PCP-induced wonder-world. If any artist wants that, obviously they need to write their own stories.

Popninja
04-24-2003, 02:19 AM
And Banshee, I did in fact understand where you were coming from. If the writer wanted to motivate his friend, he could write some scripts to try and get him going. But, in this case, it sounds to me like he wants to get his story going and needs someone without an inferiority complex to draw it. So, he needs to get someone with skills AND confidence to draw his story.

legend of 8
04-24-2003, 08:32 AM
When all else fails, tell him that if he doesn't get off his lazy ass and just draw so that the fans (if you have any) are happy, then you'll give it to somebody else.

Yeah, that's pretty much what happened with my webcomic. Once it goes back up I'll have the new artist working on it. I'm happy myself.

But in the event you dont HAVE another artist... just tell him that if he doesn't do it then who will? It doesn't matter what it looks like so long as it depicts what it is supposed to.

banshee
04-24-2003, 09:01 AM
Point taken, Popninja :) yeah, from that perspective it makes sense. IF they really wanna work together, a compromise can be made for a time. But after a while, it's make or break really.

well, a writer doesnt hv to change the story per se, just fine tune to best translate it to the graphic... graphic.. something, I couldnt think of the word! lol <can see Ven planning the ritual beating clause, dont u even think it Ven, I am a Toaster Super Mom of Twins!>

Ok, enuff said from me LOL

later days
B.

Mark
04-24-2003, 11:19 AM
I'm thinking he's dealing with some form of creative block. If the artist is blocked, he may have every intention of doing the work, but the ideas just don't come. And no, the visual ideas are not in the script. The script has to be interpreted by the artist into his own images for him to be able to draw it.The issues for the artist are (1) what is the source of the block and (2) how to deal with it.

One possible source of the block is if the script is so detailed (including things like camera angles and character poses) that the artist is not able to engage with the story make it his own.

I realize that some writers are very possessive of the story and think of the artist as a mere illustrator. However, if you want to make the best use of your artist, who is actually your co-author, the author of the visuals, you have to give him room to apply his own imagination.

To get the best results, you have to treat your artist as your collaborator. If your attitude is that it's your story and your story alone, and the artist is just illustating the images in your head that you've put into script form, you're going to end up with hack art, or no art.

violentpip
05-06-2003, 02:27 AM
all your advise has been helpful and i hope some of it will help to get my artist confidence level to where it needs to be i've been trying to get him on here so maybe he could get some outside opinions on this however let me say again thanx

legend of 8
05-15-2003, 10:39 AM
Just because I feel like chucking in another idea...

If he's having problems with visuals, sometimes my artists ask me "how should this look?" and I give them a basic description of how a panel should look... usually once they get one panel down they can understand how the rest should mesh together, and it's just a simple matter of letting them fill in the rest of the gaps themselves.

Artist's block sucks. Its not an easy thing to beat... but it can be beat.

Good luck pip.