I'm just curious is to if anyone gets my perspective on this at all.

[Whune]

if I tell someone what I dislike about their stuff

I'll get people calling foul
"[you think you're the god of drawing. who are you to say what you don't like...]"

If someone comes to me and says that what I'm doing is "wrong"
and I disagree; for x and Y reasons... appreciating the discussion for it's own sake...

I get called argumentative.

..

[Ace Corona]

Did this happen recently? If I had made mistakes, I wouldn't get mad if someone pointed out the flaws, I would welcome the criticism so I could grow as an artist. If someone pointed out something that they thought was a mistake, and I knew it wasn't, I wouldn't think it would be wrong to explain to them that they are mistaken. Could it be the way you're coming at people?

[dfbovey]

I've had people say they don't like my work many times. Called my style boring. Called my style too realistic. Called it too detailed. Doesn't bother me. My art just isn't for them. No sense in trying to convince them otherwise. Waste of energy.

[dfbovey]

Also, as an artist sometimes you just have to accept that not everyone sees the world the way you do.

[amadarwin]

...aaaand what is YOUR perspective?

[NickRocks]

alot of people get butthurt over their art, that's probably why art forums arent as active as facebook where everyone rims you over every drawing you do.

is it still a thing where people actually ask permission to do layovers? http://z4.ifrm.com/30153/94/0/e5111294/e5111294.gif


as for receiving crits, just receive them, why would you go "i disagree with your crit"? just accept the crit and if you think its applicable apply it otherwise ignore it but dont be rude about it. there's a tact to receiving crits as well as giving them

[dfbovey]

Looking at Dave Chisholm's last comment in the thread in question, if you have to write an essay to defend a critique and your explanation is style choice, you have to consider whether your style is translating the way you want it to. I agree with that.

[Whune]

Looking at Dave Chisholm's last comment in the thread in question, if you have to write an essay to defend a critique and your explanation is style choice, you have to consider whether your style is translating the way you want it to. I agree with that.

i agree with that as well

but the conversation wouldn't of gotten to that point if I'd not of said what I said;
which is my point overall.

i love the art form
ergo i enjoy discussion of all aspects of it for it's own sake.
I believe that anything positive about my work is as much to do with my indulging in discussion about aspects of illustration.. as it is the simple actual practice thereof.
Two: as conceited as I apparently come off as... I'm forever paranoid that I'm deluded; and believe that if something can't hold-up to scrutiny... then my holding to it is for no reason than it's my present opinion
"they disagree but whatever I'm not even going to talk about it"
Which isn't good enough for me.

For a combo of those two reasons I routinely find my self "justifying my artistic choices" and then other people getting irritated by that.
my view point is:
"WTF? isn't anyone enjoying this discussion for it's own sake as much as I am?"
and I guess the answer to that is "no"

[50%grey]

I think the best way is just to learn how to give an objective critique.

Every piece of art no matter how bad has some good quality in it that you can compliment, and the negative aspects that need to be fixed are up to you as a educated artist to explain how to fix them.

If you are just saying well I don't like this, or you did that badly that is just an opinion.

An educated opinion is what you are striving for. I can guarantee no one will get pissed off at you if you are truelly trying to help them.

On the flipside, as an artist you need to learn how to take criticism because that is never going away.

Best thing to do if you don't agree with it is just ignore it ,and move on. Although, if its constructive criticism you owe yourself as an artist to step away ,and see if they may have a point.
Doesn't mean you have to take there advice, but it may be something you are not seeing so it can only help you out in the longrun.

[dfbovey]

and I guess the answer to that is "no"

You're right on that one. I don't think most people come into a thread to give a critique, expecting to have a lot of back and forth discussion based off of what they said. I think most people who give critiques may not even come back to the thread in which they gave a critique, and would be on to the next one. Done and forgotten. I think if you're looking for that, you'll be left unfulfilled for the most part. Most people don't have that kind of time.

[Whune]

I think the best way is just to learn how to give an objective critique.

Every piece of art no matter how bad has some good quality in it that you can compliment, and the negative aspects that need to be fixed are up to you as a educated artist to explain how to fix them.

If you are just saying well I don't like this, or you did that badly that is just an opinion.

An educated opinion is what you are striving for. I can guarantee no one will get pissed off at you if you are truelly trying to help them.

My concern with other people taking my critiques badly is only stated for contrast:

When I'm critical of other people's work... and they cry foul... I'm the bad guy.
When others are critical of my work... and I calmly challenge it... I'm the conceited bad guy that can't take any criticism.
I routinely and easily say "I agree" to criticism of my work
case in point:
http://www.penciljack.com/forum/showthread.php?115783-Battyman&p=1298187&viewfull=1#post1298187
just because I disagree with a critique doesn't mean I can't take critique.
I've never once pulled the whiny 'you aren't god!!!' crap
Sometimes I just disagree and value discusion thereof as part of my educational process.



On the flipside, as an artist you need to learn how to take criticism because that is never going away.



Best thing to do if you don't agree with it is just ignore it ,and move on.


that's the easy way and potentially a cop-out in my opinion.
Discussion is like refining fire.
what will hold-up to it is valuable; what doesn't isn't.

I guess I just need to accept that many aren't prepared to have their opinion as scrutinized as I am of mine; and that the solution sisn't for me to stop scrutinizing opinions; and making them public to see if they hold-up to scrutiny.... It's just to accept that most people want to express an opinion and be done with it.



Although, if its constructive criticism you owe yourself as an artist to step away ,and see if they may have a point.
Doesn't mean you have to take there advice, but it may be something you are not seeing so it can only help you out in the longrun.

i guess my pondering style is more direct: consider the validity of both my and their points WHILE i'm sparring

[Whune]

You're right on that one. I don't think most people come into a thread to give a critique, expecting to have a lot of back and forth discussion based off of what they said. I think most people who give critiques may not even come back to the thread in which they gave a critique, and would be on to the next one. Done and forgotten. I think if you're looking for that, you'll be left unfulfilled for the most part.

yeah, I think i just need to accept most don't value what I'm valuing; and so will see it as an attack or something; rather than just friendly sparring.



Most people don't have that kind of time.

oh but they do for video games... movies...screwing around in the breakroom in general...
I think it's back to enjoyment factor
I just enjoy discussion on such things for it's own sake.
I see such exercise as expansive of my understanding of the subject.

[Popninja]

I think Run DMC said it best...

"You talk too much, you never shut up. I said you talk too much, homeboy you never shut up."

Just take the crit and say thanks. Save your fingers the extra work they could be doing drawing.

[dfbovey]

I just think you have unreasonable expectations in general. Most people, when they post their art, might expect people to view and leave a few sentences worth of critiques, maybe pointing out a few things that might be off. If you're lucky, maybe a draw over. But you seem to want to escalate those interactions into something well beyond that. Which to me is very self centered, because not everyone has that kind of time, or interest in your work specifically. If everyone did that for every single piece of art posted, Penciljack would need to be a full time paid job for some to maintain your expectations. Not realistic. And very strange.

[NickRocks]

I think Run DMC said it best...

"You talk too much, you never shut up. I said you talk too much, homeboy you never shut up."

Just take the crit and say thanks. Save your fingers the extra work they could be doing drawing.

I agree with this

[Whune]

I just think you have unreasonable expectations in general. Most people, when they post their art, might expect people to view and leave a few sentences worth of critiques, maybe pointing out a few things that might be off. If you're lucky, maybe a draw over. But you seem to want to escalate those interactions into something well beyond that. Which to me is very self centered, because not everyone has that kind of time, or interest in your work specifically. If everyone did that for every single piece of art posted, Penciljack would need to be a full time paid job for some to maintain your expectations. Not realistic. And very strange.

lol
who's to say I mean this only of my own work?

the thing of "most people just give a crit and never go back" that was surprising to me
I routinely check back ... cuz i enjoy the discussion for it's own sake... regardless of if it's about my work or not

[dfbovey]

I never said only your work. But you are one of the only people who seem to have that expectation. But I also said if everyone did that across the board with everyone's art, nobody would have time for anything else in their lives. Having that kind of interaction is impossible for most people, except for maybe on a very limited basis.

Using myself as an example, I'm currently drawing 14 hours a day with a very important deadline coming up on Monday. Probably shouldn't even be involved in this conversation. With the limited time I have, should I try to spread myself out critiquing several pieces or go on and on and on with just one? That is the dilemma.

[NickRocks]

just draw! I myself should be working on getting this unfly combo down :(

[Whune]

I never said only your work. But you are one of the only people who seem to have that expectation. But I also said if everyone did that across the board with everyone's art, nobody would have time for anything else in their lives. Having that kind of interaction is impossible for most people, except for maybe on a very limited basis.

Using myself as an example, I'm currently drawing 14 hours a day with a very important deadline coming up on Monday. Probably shouldn't even be involved in this conversation. With the limited time I have, should I try to spread myself out critiquing several pieces or go on and on and on with just one? That is the dilemma.

i guess i see it as anything else:
the more you exclusively commit the more you potentially get out of it.

I'll leave it at that as I think I'm just being a distraction for you at this point
(no I'm not offended. )

I appreciate your attempts to help me understand that my values are more abstract where as others are more pragmatic



just draw! I myself should be working on getting this unfly combo down :(

I hear you;
but to me drawing and discussion thereof are simply two different and mutually beneficial things.

[DevinC]

I highly value critique and discussion. I think it's really helpful for both the person receiving the critique, and the person giving it. If I can write a few paragraphs and it helps someone, then I feel I did something worthwhile.

From what I can tell though, you don't actually want in depth critiques or back and forth discussions of your work - not if the discussion isn't about how good you are. Case in point: I took half an hour or more out of my life to sit down, and write a lengthy response about some philosophies of design and commercial art. I could have been doing anything else with my life, but I committed that time to you because you said you wanted a discussion, and I thought it would help you grow as an artist.

To my dismay, you ignored everything I said (most of which wasn't even about your work specifically, so how could you take it personally?), then called me arrogant, insulted my work, and claimed I didn't have any right to tell you anything. Nor anyone else on this forum, apparently.

Does that seem like someone who wants discussion to you? To me it seems like someone that only wants praise.

This kind of attitude really turns people off giving you crits. In the real world, it really turns people off wanting to work with you.

If you want people to commit the time necessary to have a discussion that's above and beyond a normal critique, you have to be incredibly gracious, and show them that their time was not wasted. You have to be more open to other opinions, not less.

I really mean this sincerely, because I agree that discussion can be very helpful. It just won't be me you're having a discussion with next time.

[Caimano]

As artist I think critiques are really important and as others already said you have always thanks people when they offer them even if they are bad or wrong. Important and most difficult part is to be able to "filter" the really added value ones from the rest. During this year my work reaches more people than in the past thanks to Image and I received a lot of critiques about my work, some very good helped me to improve others that in my opnion didn't add value. I made the splitting choiche trying to be not influenced by my ego, but it's not easy at all.

From a realistic point of view, when you're a professional drawer (also a small one like me) there is another thing that yo have to learn to know: the selling. If you want to live and earn your work must sell well and sometimes (at least me) yo're really surprised about what the block busters are...

[amadarwin]

Whune, haven't you learned yet? You're damned if you do. You're damned if you don't. Simple as that.

Defending yourself with 'style choice' is a straw man defense. It doesn't hold up, so of course you come off as an asshat. The best way to counter a critique is to reveal your thought processes and maybe ask WHY someone thinks something looks off. At best, they may help you discover how to fix it and still retain the stylistic choice you want. You get the discussion you crave without having to trumpet your victories and failures in life while doing so.

Also it doesn't take a highly skilled professional artist to notice errors in your work, so dismissing people based on their skill level is just plain asinine. As with any other crit, you should take it on its merit and discern if there is some validity to it and act accordingly.

[The P.R. Man]

In before the lock!

I've tried giving crits, and a drawover to whune, and they were mostly either met with emotes or ignored. I'm pretty much done other than enjoying watching the arguments ensue since I'm a name caller

[cbikle]

Whune, you spend waaaaay too much time over-thinking and over-posting.

Spend more of this energy on your art; don't worry so much about what other people say and that includes this post.

[bfowler]

There are a tons of artists out there that I don't really "like" from a personal style standpoint but I still respect the hell of out what they're able to do and see the skill and ability in it. Just because I love lobster don't mean steak doesn't wet someones palette more.

Most artists find it hard to separate themselves from their work. They see you saying their work isn't up to your standards that they are not. Someone else mentioned it before. You have to be able to tell the difference between someone not liking your work because it's not meeting the goals you intended and a person just not liking what you're intending to do with the work even if you hit the nail on the head. I might be trying to do the most realistic painting in the world and someone might say it's poor work because it looks like a photo and has no soul. Or I might be trying to get a piece to convey kick ass vampires and someone thinks the sparkles aren't essential.

[golgotha]

you look like an adult but take crits like a child. you are condescending to most everyone. you need to realize you are not the center of the universe and others are not your inferior. maybe you should complete a drawing once in a while. take some klonopin.

[Aabh]

This is a fascinating discussion because I have seen people take critiques very badly. Which always amazes me because to me that's like kicking your doctor while he performs surgery *sigh*... That said, I have also seen people taking rather upbeat and positive responses to critiques as "whining", and really drop the boom on them (And sometimes being downright rude to them in response). I carefully craft my responses to critique because of that.

There are some folk in every forum who feel that "speaking their mind" means "saying the first thing on my mind heedless of how anyone may take it, and if it's misunderstood, that's THEIR fault." Which, naturally, gets you shot down faster than Snoopy by the Red Baron and they get very hurt by it. Another thing I can't really understand. I have re-typed this paragraph 5 times so far. It's hard enough to not be misunderstood when you can hear inflection and see faces... how anyone would presume people will just "get" their meaning WITHOUT inflection and facial cues is beyond me. Sure, say it like you see it, but edit yourself a little so people can't possibly misunderstand you. Speaking your mind is a skill, not a right. (And that's number 6 on the edit clock for this paragraph :D)

Regarding style, I also have a "Style" and my style tends to not be the same as the style generally presented here on the board (Being Manga style and all). But for the most part, the underlying techniques are the same regardless of style (Lineweight, color, anatomy, etc). Honestly, I have no idea what your style is, Whune, so I can't critique that at all, I'm just speaking as someone who also has a non-standard style :D But even Picasso could paint "normally" and he had to learn all the standard techniques and jump through all the hoops, and no matter what, when you look at his paintings, as bizarre as they are, you can see line work and color matching and even (strangely enough) anatomy there. He had the skills and it showed. That's why folks say "you can't hide behind "style"." You really can't. Even the most obscure of artists has to learn the basics and it does show in their work.

This was a response to the question, not to you personally (I'm noting people are taking you on personally, I have no history with that, so I wanted to add that this is by no means a personal attack :D).

[Whune]

WHY someone thinks something looks off. At best, they may help you discover how to fix it and still retain the stylistic choice you want.
I might be wrong; but what I saw was a person straight-up telling me drawing the mouth that way is omg-wrong.. and I shouldn't be ashamed of that and just man-up and learn to do it right.
As if I can't already draw mouths of faces "the right way"... from the skull-up through the muscles, with no erasing.
I simply don't like how "the right way" looks; and pardon me if I presently feel justified in saying so.



You get the discussion you crave without having to trumpet your victories and failures in life while doing so.

This probably true; and likely an expression of personal insecurities on my part.
However I fail to see how the existence of such things implies the righteousness of others in focusing on such things as if they themselves were perfect human beings.

"[OMG you're such a conceited ass-hat jackas know-it-all etc...]"

I see now that my response should probably be:
"Yeah, actually you are probably right - my intentions are almost always what I would call 'good' - but I oft fail miserably.

Be well."

[Whune]

you look like an adult but take crits like a child. you are condescending to most everyone. you need to realize you are not the center of the universe and others are not your inferior. maybe you should complete a drawing once in a while. take some klonopin.

You are probably right: I am a flawed human being; that... while my intentions are almost always positive - I oft fail miserably to manifest thereof.

Be well.

[Whune]

Whune, you spend waaaaay too much time over-thinking and over-posting.

Spend more of this energy on your art; don't worry so much about what other people say and that includes this post.

*nods*

yeah, that's true.

I need to really get that in my head.

thanks

[Whune]

It's hard enough to not be misunderstood when you can hear inflection and see faces... how anyone would presume people will just "get" their meaning WITHOUT inflection and facial cues is beyond me.

This is an excellent point.
Thank for reminding me.


That's why folks say "you can't hide behind "style"." You really can't. Even the most obscure of artists has to learn the basics and it does show in their work.

I agree.
(and I'm saying this in context of the recent OMG you're an insecure jackass that can't take criticism" episode...)
In my estimation I have no problem drawing mouths "the right way"
I just don't like how that makes my characters look.
Should I of just proved I could do it to apease the critics?
****, no.
I don't have to justify my self to anyone on this or any board.
I made the mistake of simply explaining my choice; instead of just ignoring the arrogance of such a parental stance toward me:
"Drawing it this way is wrong... now don't be ashamed of that... just face it..."
Ok dad.
I mean really.

Anyone on this board that states that something is just flat out wrong in regards to expression (how we draw) of absolutes (the facts of anatomy and structure and whatever) is taking their self way, way too seriously.

And the end of the day all we have is opinions;
and while I very well may be an insecure jackass...
It's not because I have the audacity to refuse to yield to dogmatic ideas about "the right way" to do something.




This was a response to the question, not to you personally (I'm noting people are taking you on personally, I have no history with that, so I wanted to add that this is by no means a personal attack :D).

That's cool.
I appreciate your candor.

Be well.

[Whune]

I really mean this sincerely, because I agree that discussion can be very helpful. It just won't be me you're having a discussion with next time.

Frankly sir I found your approach to be overly parental, dogmatic, and condescending:
"this is wrong.. now don't be ashamed of that..."
Yeah, ok dad.

The reality is you have an opinion.
And while I very well might be a jackass...
It's not because I refuse to yield to your dogmatic opinion about "what the right way" is.
I can do the right way.
I can do it till the cows come home.
I can do it from the skull up through the muscles with no erasing.

I just don't like how it looks.
and while you are entitled to your opinion... that's all it is; and I absolutely am not a tool that can't take criticism... "hiding behind my style"... for my refusing to accept such an opinion as the humble conveyance of Gospel of illustration.

Be well.

[Whune]

My apologies in not responding to everyone
or that I didn't do it in a single post.

I'm kind of tired of this topic for now.

Be well.

[golgotha]

i would be tired, too after pages of wordy responses.

[Juggertha]

Whune, I sincerely believe that you have lost a lot of people that would potentially give you feedback.

I for one, have no interest in commenting on another of your art threads - because of how you react.

I wish you the best, and would love to see you actually finish a piece some day, but you've defibately made it difficult to participate in one of your threads.

[Whune]

I wish you the best

thanks

you as well.

[dfbovey]

Like the other thread, this one has also run its course.

[cbikle]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQQdSwFgSec............................... ....
-NSFW-