Psf: You think you're better?

[BringerOfStorms]

The challenge was to put up or shut up. We've all heard it... "I could do it better than Rob Liefeld". So we attempted just that. (it should be mentioned that this was an art challenge so any changes to the script or dialogue should not be considered)

Who has the best page?
Winner is dude with the most votes. Loser is anyone with fewer votes than Liefeld.

Liefeld
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a319/BringerOfStorms/Liefeld950.jpg

Joeydes
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a319/BringerOfStorms/Joeydes950.jpg

~BoS
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a319/BringerOfStorms/BoS950.jpg

Aabh
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a319/BringerOfStorms/Aabh615.jpg

Emperorsteele
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a319/BringerOfStorms/Emperorsteele615.jpg

Hangman
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a319/BringerOfStorms/Hangman615.jpg

:lml-::pj::-lml:

[BringerOfStorms]

Thanks to Joeydes, Aabh, Emperorsteele and Hangman for getting their work in. Pumped to see so many guys turn out on this. Best of luck chaps.

~BoS

[Hangman]

Great job everybody!

This is one of the three X-Force issues I bought when I was a wee lad. First comics I ever bought and they got me into comics and into drawing. They hold a special place in my heart and as much as I know Liefeld is not that great it still doesnt change the fact that he got me drawing.

Thx for letting me take part. Shatterstar is my fav character ever.

[sirandal]

All good entries. Ultimately I had to vote for "the man" because while good, I can't point to one of these that I feel "beat" Rob's. :(

One thing that I do realize now is that maybe one of the things that he has going for him is an "it factor" (a la Donald Trump.) I don't know what it is, but his stands out. (Regardless of the egregious anatomy errors and ridiculous style choices.)

But like I said, I enjoyed all of these immensely! I'm envious...I don't think I could have beaten any of these (let alone Rob).

[Juggertha]

So, as the challenge says, it's about who can do better. And, IMO, none of them did. None of these entries BEAT Rob's. Sure, Rob's has issues, but as a scroll down, I find issues in every other page. But then I go back up to Rob's and think, wow, that has some impact - so it got my vote.

That's NOT to say that there isn't some great work here. I'm very impressed with some of these entries.

No doubt I'll get neg rep'd for that though. lol


--------------------

Joey - GRREEEAAATTTT anatomy. I really love how you handled muscle here. This is the kind of line work I love to colour. Great stuff. I will say though, that it's a tad on the plain side. I imagine colours would make it pop, but it's coming off as a little simple right now.

BoS - LOVE the dark spots on yours. Especially that last panel! Great stuff, man. Watch the anatomy on the first guy though, his right arm, and left leg, are really straining my muscle imagination.

Aabh - I think I like your layout of the first panel best of all the entries. It's a much more effective way of handling that full character breaking the panels. That being said, I think you needed to tighten up on the line work and anatomy.

Steele - Interesting take on that first panel. I think it's cool that you're trying to show their emotion more. I'm not sure that it's totally pulling it off though - perhaps some manga emphasis lines or something?

Hangman - Wow, you banged this out at the mall? Crazy good, man. I can see lots of potential to this that would just require a few more hours of effort. As always, man - you've got tight drawing skills.

Hope you guys take this as it was meant - a compliment. I think it's great that you're trying to stand toe-to-toe with a pro.

I'm just not sure ya beat him.

[scmarooney]

Well this turned out to be a cool challenge, although I kind of wish that you hadn't added Rob Liefeld as a choice to vote for. I do understand putting his page up there for comparison purposes, though.

I enjoyed looking through all of these entries, and thought that Joey, Bos, and Hangman's are really excellent. In fact, Hangman's is so clean and clear that I almost overlooked it and had to go back to look at it some more. Had I not given it a second look I would have had to give it to Joey or BoS, but went with Hangman's on this! Nice job to everyone!

[dfbovey]

Well, the challenge was... Can you do better than Rob Liefeld? and the only way to determine that is the have him included in the poll.

I voted for Hangman. The only part I didn't like was the Sauron panel. He could have been smaller in the panel, and there's a really bad tangent with his hand and the border. But you did a really nice job with the 1st, 2nd and 4th panels.

[BringerOfStorms]

...although I kind of wish that you hadn't added Rob Liefeld as a choice to vote for. I do understand putting his page up there for comparison purposes, though.

Yeah it was Dave's idea. I think it's only fair to really go head to head if we are actually challenging the man. It was a fun challenge no matter what the outcome.

Thanks for checking in SCM.

~BoS

[scmarooney]

Well, the challenge was... Can you do better than Rob Liefeld? and the only way to determine that is the have him included in the poll.

I voted for Hangman. The only part I didn't like was the Sauron panel. He could have been smaller in the panel, and there's a really bad tangent with his hand and the border. But you did a really nice job with the 1st, 2nd and 4th panels.

Ah, my bad. I had not been keeping up with the thread for this one over in the discussion area, so missed that this was a part of the overall challenge. Makes sense, though.


Yeah it was Dave's idea. I think it's only fair to really go head to head if we are actually challenging the man. It was a fun challenge no matter what the outcome.

Thanks for checking in SCM.

~BoS

Thanks for the clarification, BoS. I gotta start reading through more of the threads over in the discussion area before I chime in and stick my foot in my mouth on the voting threads ;)!

[Juggertha]

Foot in mouth = usual state of being a commissioner.

[Deth]

I didnt notice the Rob choice. of all the entries though I fealt Aabh did the best in telling the story.

First panel shatterstar is actually standing atop toads body.

second panel Siryn actually looks like she needed help. and last panel shows shatterstar excited to attack Sauron.

The others are good but Aabh is the most readable.

as for being better than Liefeld, Although he has anatomy issues his work is definitely flashy. I dont believe any of the entries had that uumpphhh.. to really be better than Liefelds page.

[Popninja]

The only person who even got close to making a page that actually got my attention was Hangman, but he didn't really finish, I don't think. Like Deth said, none of the pages have that uumpphhh, which if nothing else, Liefeld has always known how to give a page uumpphh.

[Jcatlett76]

I had to go with Liefeld here. I'm not necessarily a fan of his but I'm not a detractor either. The man must have some talent to stay in the business as long as he has. While I'm not fond of his style, I can see that he can draw and knows how to compose a page. Sure, he has anatomy issues such as the now infamous Captain America w/boobs pic but overall he performs well. And while there were elements in each of the others here that I liked, they lacked the professional feel of Rob's page. That's not to say they were bad by any means because they weren't. I especially Liked Hangman's version.

[BPS Morganza]

Where's the "uumpphh" on Liefleds page? Something I could study maybe learn from it.

[solanki]

It would be better if this challenge was with pencils only. Anyway Rob's artwork has impact and I think it's because the guy doesn't necessarily bother with things like anatomy, perspective and all that, while the beginner artists obsess over these things a lot. He is into it for pure fun and it shows. Kinda like when you are giving a performance you gotta forget the technique and focus purely on performance.

[ghostcat]

Had to give it to Hangman for pure visual readability, which I think is the most important thing in sequentials. If you have to go back and study a panel just to figure out what's going on, you've failed, and that's my biggest problem with Rob's piece. Sure, he has a colorist to make his work more readable, but a colorist could also go back and add the detail Hangman left out. The one thing I'm concerned with is that I don't know if you can make the balloons work with Hangmans piece in the 3rd panel.

[BPS Morganza]

I voted for Liefeld, it's kind of not fair to everyone here only because the inks on his were done by a pro, DC and Marvel put in "ghost" inkers/ embellishers to make his work look professional.

[Emperorsteele]

I think our pages fail to "pop" in comparison to Rob's because of the insane amount of hatching he's got going on (which IMO don't decrease readability too much. Though how much of that is Rob and how much of that is the inker, I'm uncertain).

Also, while we're all doing the things Rob can't or won't (keeping things internally consistent, using different expressions, avoiding "talking head syndrome", more correct anatomy -in most cases-, actually drawing feet, drawing cool looking weapons -myself excluded, I can't draw sci-fi guns for crap-), the images over-all still aren't exciting to look at. Of the pieces here, Joey and BoS are the only ones I think that are pro-comics quality.

I think the crux of the issue here is that Rob wasn't afraid to go "larger than life". All these pages are the same width, but Rob's Shatterstar is easily twice as big as most of ours. I'm not sure what went on in the preceding panels, but if I had to guess, it's that Syrin was fighting Toad when a beam blast came out of nowhere, leading into this page. If that's the case, then I think Aabh's layout serves that point perfectly: looking at just the balloons first, you still don't know who saved Syrin until you look down a bit past the text.

Over-all, I think every piece here has something that Rob's art here definitely lacks, and is better in certain respects, but in turn, they lack something compared to his as well, so it kind of balances out.

As an aside, I find it very amusing that in the discussion thread, people were deriding Rob's layout and lack of story-telling ability (I'm pretty sure I saw someone say the entire sequence could be done better with just 2 panels), and yet most of us made similar story-telling decisions. Then again, given that Rob is slaughtering the lot of us here, I guess this entire exercise is funny =)

[Fallenangel]

Voted Liefeld, although i liked Hangman's page too, it just did not seem as "finished" as the original.

[Electronick]

I voted for Liefeld. It's already been stated that his page has the most flair, and I think it comes from all the texturing / linework. The page is crammed with detail, and it makes your eye want to examine it (and hopefully miss the goofy proportions on Shatterstar). There were some interesting entries for sure, but I had to recognize Liefeld.

[amadarwin]

With better inks, Hangman would have definitely blown Rob outta the water.

[dfbovey]

Im as flabbergasted at the poll results as I am that Liefeld continues to work in the industry. Kind of spits in the face of everything that's preached here on a daily basis. Style over substance. I mean, look at the anatomy alone in the first panel. Hangman has him beat and would make a much better finished product once colored and final than what was in the book.

[NewYorkPicasso]

Just for fun, why doesn't somebody put up three Liefeld pieces with a poll and let's weigh him in. Could be pretty entertaining.

[amadarwin]

it's the inking that did these pieces in. Hangman's, imo, is the best of the bunch, but the inking killed it.

I say find a penciled page of Rob's and do this again. I'd be surprised if the results are the same.

[Emperorsteele]

Im as flabbergasted at the poll results as I am that Liefeld continues to work in the industry. Kind of spits in the face of everything that's preached here on a daily basis. Style over substance. I mean, look at the anatomy alone in the first panel. Hangman has him beat and would make a much better finished product once colored and final than what was in the book.

Well, the anatomy in that first panel IS messed up... however, it's the only thing wrong with the piece as far as I can see (that, and the fact that Rob couldn't decide how many grenades he wanted to draw). Syrin isn't impossibly proportioned, the work is readable, and... Rob manages to take a very boring part of the script and just cram it with detail.

So in other words, if we wanted to pick on Liefeld, there are many far worse pieces we could have chosen (some of which were in the collab image posted in the discussion thread). In fact, maybe the challenge should have been to just re-create the first panel, because like I said, that's the only part that's glaringly awful.

Also, as a comics "pro", this page probably took Liefeld only a few hours to draw (given that he had to draw 24 pages in what, a week or two?). We all had 3 weeks (ok, i did mine in 5 hours last night, but it shows, shu'up!). So really, shame on all of us!

[BringerOfStorms]

In fact, maybe the challenge should have been to just re-create the first panel, because like I said, that's the only part that's glaringly awful.

Also, as a comics "pro", this page probably took Liefeld only a few hours to draw (given that he had to draw 24 pages in what, a week or two?). We all had 3 weeks (ok, i did mine in 5 hours last night, but it shows, shu'up!). So really, shame on all of us!

Deth was the one who requested sequentials, and then was unfortunately unable to submit something for this. I thought that it would be bad taste to "cherry pick" out a single bad panel and launch a "do it better" challenge. That Cap piece would have been too dry for a full blown SF.

Shame on yourself if you want. My piece took about 7 hours, I am not a professional artist (I worked about 3 hours a night between 10pm and 1am over a couple nights) and did not have the support of a professional (or even passable... myself) inker.

~BoS

[dfbovey]

Well, the anatomy in that first panel IS messed up... however, it's the only thing wrong with the piece as far as I can see (that, and the fact that Rob couldn't decide how many grenades he wanted to draw). Syrin isn't impossibly proportioned, the work is readable, and... Rob manages to take a very boring part of the script and just cram it with detail.

So in other words, if we wanted to pick on Liefeld, there are many far worse pieces we could have chosen (some of which were in the collab image posted in the discussion thread). In fact, maybe the challenge should have been to just re-create the first panel, because like I said, that's the only part that's glaringly awful.

Also, as a comics "pro", this page probably took Liefeld only a few hours to draw (given that he had to draw 24 pages in what, a week or two?). We all had 3 weeks (ok, i did mine in 5 hours last night, but it shows, shu'up!). So really, shame on all of us!

There's really nothing glaringly wrong with Hangman's piece. There are so many anatomy issues in that first panel alone on Liefeld's, that it's difficult to get past. At least for me. It was obviously intended to be the impact panel and it looks awful. I also don't like the messed up face in the last panel. Look at how far apart the eyes are. How many teeth can you fit in a mouth?

Hangman's has better composition, layout, flow, storytelling, clarity, anatomy, and no cringe worthy moments. Only thing Rob's has is hatching.

[ghostcat]

Emperorsteele, Xforce was a monthly title, as I recall, so I doubt Rob was producing much more than a page a day. He probably spent 5-8 hours on pencilling this piece alone, and someone else spent another 5 hours or so inking it. Yes, people here had a weeks to finish, but I'd bet most people spent a similar amount of time on theirs. I think Hangman's piece easily bests Rob's in every way except level of detail, which I think actually hurts Rob's piece. It's so noisy, you lose all distinction. Try squinting your eyes and see if you can make out anything.

[CWmax]

Yeah- no question. RL wins.

I thought that joeydes came closest.

CW

[Popninja]

I wanted to give it to Hangman, but his was not finished, and Sauron just looked too poorly done, so it dropped a few bars. In terms of "doing it better" than Liefeld did on his page, I don't think any of these guys met the challenge.

[NewYorkPicasso]

I'm nominating Rob liefeld's piece into the Pummel Hall of Fame. You know you are a Badass when you can win a Pummel match that you aren't even aware you're participating in!!! He killed it!!!

[Hangman]

I would certainly be down for rematch versus rob :) and hopefully more people would give this a try. It'd be a shame if there weren't some artists on PJ that can beat him. In all honesty I forgot I was going up against him. This page is one of the first pieces of comic book art that I had ever seen and I was just having fun with it. Started this at the mall in between work and school since I had 2 hours to spare. Added 2 more hours of work after school.

[thEbrEEze]

I think the inking is what is winning this for Rob. It is cluttered but it is also a dynamic page considering how large Shatterstar is. I hate to do it but i had to vote for Rob. I think Hangman and Joey came close. I'd be interested to see just the pencils to that page. I'm not a fan of Robs by any means but the guy got work and is still getting work. As far as the terms of the challenge all the entries have failed based on the votes. Looks like Rob wins.

[dfbovey]

hangman, you got Rob'ed

[CrazyDiamond]

Hey all. I LOVE THIS CHALLENGE!!!

This was the very idea that I presented a while ago. (Not spefically with Rob Liefeld though) But I think people misunderstood my idea and thought it would be swiping or something. I would love to see this challenge done with Penciljack artist's works!

Great entries all but I had to go with Liefeld on this one. I'm sure you could have found a worse piece of his to draw though. Ha ha.

[Aabh]

This is wild! :) Well, if I'm gonna take my first loss, at least I am in great company! All of these were great pieces. What intrigues me is I thought, besides horrid anatomy, that Robs piece was too noisy. There was simply too much hatching. And it seems the rest of the fighters here felt the same, and it is seeming.g that was our downfall. :) I accept all critiques on my piece... It really was not awesome... I think I seriously psychedelic myself out and choked. It's very clear what you guys are saying. Thanks for the feedback! I can't critique because I'm checking this on my phone in the middle of nowhere Wyoming and the competition pics aren't coming through. I'll counter critique tomorrow when we are home. :)

[Wassy]

I'm with those who pointed out that this wasn't quite fair, because the Liefeld piece was inked by someone else. Should be pencils against pencils. And while this choice was a great example of the pouches overload, it's not the biggest travesty Rob bestowed upon us.

[BringerOfStorms]

Not actually Liefeld but funny anyway.
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a319/BringerOfStorms/s662bd.jpg
~BoS

[NewYorkPicasso]

Liefeld's next comic series is gonna be called, "Pouches, Teeth, and Ball Bags"...Haw Haw Haw

[Fallenangel]

Not actually Liefeld but funny anyway.
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a319/BringerOfStorms/s662bd.jpg
~BoS

Nooo....something isn't right there....he's got feet!

[dfbovey]

Nooo....something isn't right there....he's got feet!

Needs foot pouches.

[ghostcat]

Here's my take:
http://i.imgur.com/WPg8H.png

[Popninja]

^Hilarious.

[Emperorsteele]

Ooh, the agony of De-feet =(

[BringerOfStorms]

If you noticed even his swords are chubby! Zoinks! :D

~BoS

[ghostcat]

those are butter knives

[dfbovey]

That, is too funny.

Needs all those teeth for chewing his snacks.

[sirandal]

With the help of that draw over, I take back what I said about anatomy issues. And now I see Shatterstar as a kind of Everyman. Bravo, Mr. Liefield! ;)

[BringerOfStorms]

This has to be a PJ first. The guy who is beating his next closest competition by 54% in a SF is having HIS piece made fun of mercilessly! It is almost like when Liefeld is concerned we slip into a parrallel dimension. Like the need you have to watch the scariest movie you have ever seen AGAIN! You can't help it. :)

Wild. PS... I fixed the feet in the pouches picture for your enjoyment. I didnt have enough time to add the appropriate amount of hatching to really get it looking good.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a319/BringerOfStorms/877937-bloodpouch_super11.jpg

~BoS

[JussaArtGuy]

While I am loathe to vote for Liefeld's work, I offer a slightly different observation:

Storytelling wise - Liefeld's art says very little, really. Its not very dynamic, and it relies too much on the text to say whats happening. Let's face it - its got lots of pretty inking flourishes and thats about it.

But lets take something from several of the PencilJack entrants and see if we can put together something better?

(my opinion, of course)

I like the concept of Emperorsteele's initia Shatterstar pose - it conveys his triumphant haughtiness after taking down toad to me. But I also like Hangman's initial pose, too - as it convey's a ferocity, and SS just entering the area after firing.

I like Aabh's 2nd panel, showing Syrin wiping Toad's spit-goo off her face (although I haven't read that issue in a long time, don't remember if toad did that back then?) - but it telegraphs why she'd need assistance (rather than just have her look pretty).

I like BringerOfStorms' 3rd panel of ShatterStar pointing off into the distance where we see Sauron flying off as they mention "The flying lizard" because it "shows us" both elements.

And last, as I said earlier in the thread, I LOVE BoS' 4th panel of SS and Syrin (sp?) in silhouette leaping and flying off towards Sauron - Action, Movement!

I also loved Joeydes' page, the anatomy was spot-on! but I thought it was, like the original page, not very dynamic (save for the last panel, with Sauron)

[covie]

I guess this begs the question then, what makes a page good? Is it the the over cluttering of the page with excessive line work? Because what he lacks in quality of lines, he more than makes up for in quantity. It's not the anatomy is it? Because there's been thread upon thread of people complaining about how atrociously bad Rob's work is. Hell, if you search his name, one of the first and most common results comes back to "Liefeld's 40 Worst Drawings." Yet people are willing to be dazzled by his cluttered and plentiful lines, and will vote for him over people who have crafted a page that tells a story, corrects for anatomy, or uses an actual wider range of shots. I just don't get it.

[sirandal]

I agree with covie that I also dont get it. I am willing to entertain the notion that I have been affected by nostalgia and despite knowing better, it influences my personal opinion. When I looked at all of those, one of them stood out as having more impact and that was Rob's. Maybe that is the "it"ness or "ummmph" as it has been called here...but I still cant put a name on it. I wouldnt say it was "clutter" though.

[CrazyDiamond]

I guess this begs the question then, what makes a page good?

Opinion. It's as simple as that. There is no objective good or bad.

[BringerOfStorms]

Opinion. It's as simple as that. There is no objective good or bad.

But when "popular opinion" is that something is good, you would think there is something specific behind it.

~BoS

[Popninja]

I guess this begs the question then, what makes a page good? Is it the the over cluttering of the page with excessive line work? Because what he lacks in quality of lines, he more than makes up for in quantity. It's not the anatomy is it? Because there's been thread upon thread of people complaining about how atrociously bad Rob's work is. Hell, if you search his name, one of the first and most common results comes back to "Liefeld's 40 Worst Drawings." Yet people are willing to be dazzled by his cluttered and plentiful lines, and will vote for him over people who have crafted a page that tells a story, corrects for anatomy, or uses an actual wider range of shots. I just don't get it.

If you're talking about the entries here, none of them "did better." That's what it was all about for me. All of these had issues that ultimately didn't make them better than the Liefeld page. As good as, probably. But not better. If the comp was good, the anatomy sucked. If the anatomy was good, like Joey's, the page was just static and completely boring. There was something that made me groan in each entry.

None of these guys "did better," so I threw my vote to Liefeld.

[BringerOfStorms]

There was something that made me groan in each entry.

Classic.

~BoS

[BPS Morganza]

I think this is a good challenge but the subject was not all Liefled, which was the whole point, lets look at his youngblood pages for the next one http://majorspoilers.com/2011/03/06/retro-review-youngblood-1-april-1992/

As far as I know YoungBlood #1 was all Liefeld, or maybe a pencils only match would work better.

[amadarwin]

None of these guys "did better," so I threw my vote to Liefeld.
that's how I saw it, too.

[Aabh]

I'm totally okay with losing to Liefield, that was the point of the fight. I do think it's really wild, but in a "Wow, the world is a crazy place" sort of way :D

I think, at the very least, some of us did better in a lot of arenas... No... I actually feel that ALL of the entrants (Including my own, warts and all) are better than the original page... but that original page is VERY old for me now, I've been staring at it for 2 weeks... so I will have to concede that I'm probably totally biased. :D I also am very new to the American comic scene (Having come in to comics late (In my 20s) and through the very clean lines and low hatching of Manga), so the page looks particularly horrid to me, SERIOUSLY over-cluttered with lines. That said, a lot of American comics look that way to me, even by the masters of the trade and I should have adapted, the challenge was not to Manga-fy the page ;).

I do have to say, though, it would not have been fair if the point was to beat Liefield and not his inker. However, looking it up, it turns out that Liefield is listed as the Inker as well, so even taking on the "inker" we still lost, fair and square (sorry folks!) :D

The Title in Question (http://www.comicvine.com/x-force-under-the-knife/37-35378/)

(Side note: I couldn't get my hands on a copy of the comic, so I found a synopsis that said Toad could produce slime from his hands and he was trying to goo up Siryn's mouth so she couldn't scream, I figured, once Shatterstar saved her, she would have slime on her face)

[BPS Morganza]

I do have to say, though, it would not have been fair if the point was to beat Liefield and not his inker. However, looking it up, it turns out that Liefield is listed as the Inker as well, so even taking on the "inker" we still lost, fair and square (sorry folks!) :D

The Title in Question (http://www.comicvine.com/x-force-under-the-knife/37-35378/)



I bet you think Rob Inked this one too, he got inkers credit, but as an artist I can tell it's not his inking. Liefeld was an investment by Marvel, they had every intention of hyping him up whether he had talent or not. Ghost inkers were in most if not all of his art when working for DC or Marvel, hell even today he takes further and uses Ghost embellishers like Anthony Castrillo and draws over his work to give his Liefeldisms. http://www.bleedingcool.com/2012/01/23/so-was-deal-infinite-anyway/

http://s3.amazonaws.com/resourcel/1257558202_X-Force%20%281991%29_3_p19_Art.jpg

[Aabh]

Okay, I was duped. So, who DID ink the page in question? Does anyone know?

[BPS Morganza]

Okay, I was duped. So, who DID ink the page in question? Does anyone know?

I've been looking and I can't find any information, it'd a dirty little Marvel secret, at least Karl Kesel received inker credit on Hawk and Dove, I've read stories about how he had to embellish so the book was printable.

[Aabh]

Hmmm.... that DOES add the complication then, doesn't it? So... DID we do better/worse than (Maybe Karl Kesel and) Rob Liefield?

[Jcatlett76]

I love this thread. I hope to see another like it soon. Maybe not Liefeld of course but just any artist in general.

[Popninja]

I bet you think Rob Inked this one too, he got inkers credit, but as an artist I can tell it's not his inking. Liefeld was an investment by Marvel, they had every intention of hyping him up whether he had talent or not. Ghost inkers were in most if not all of his art when working for DC or Marvel, hell even today he takes further and uses Ghost embellishers like Anthony Castrillo and draws over his work to give his Liefeldisms. http://www.bleedingcool.com/2012/01/23/so-was-deal-infinite-anyway/

http://s3.amazonaws.com/resourcel/1257558202_X-Force%20%281991%29_3_p19_Art.jpg

That kinda looks like Larsen could have inked it.

[dfbovey]

I think his best stuff was actually when McFarlane inked over him.

[dfbovey]

Actually, it kind of looks like McFarlane might have just ghost penciled the stuff I'm talking about.

http://d1466nnw0ex81e.cloudfront.net/iss/600w/16/90161/1112687.jpg

I mean... there's no way Liefeld would ever draw a gun that even looked remotely functional.

[BringerOfStorms]

Actually, it kind of looks like McFarlane might have just ghost penciled the stuff I'm talking about.

http://d1466nnw0ex81e.cloudfront.net/iss/600w/16/90161/1112687.jpg

I mean... there's no way Liefeld would ever draw a gun that even looked remotely functional.

I've always thought that was McFarlane!
~BoS

[Popninja]

Actually, it kind of looks like McFarlane might have just ghost penciled the stuff I'm talking about.

http://d1466nnw0ex81e.cloudfront.net/iss/600w/16/90161/1112687.jpg

I mean... there's no way Liefeld would ever draw a gun that even looked remotely functional.

Nah, McFarlane was always known for adding everything in the ink stage, barely roughing his pencils, so he probably just really embellished Rob's work.

Those Rob/Todd covers were pretty great, though, back in the day.

[covie]

Back to the topic at hand, I voted for BoS. It beat Rob's page in clarity, story telling, and anatomy. Sure, it has its flaws, but it IS better than Rob's original page.

[Teratophile]

I Love this thread.


I remember one of my first drawoffs involved redesigning Liefield characters. fun as hell.

[CrazyDiamond]

But when "popular opinion" is that something is good, you would think there is something specific behind it.

~BoS

Yes, convention. So I guess covie's question was intentionally "what makes something conventionally good?" And for the purpose of discussion this is the only real question that makes any sense. And with that sentiment in mind here are my thoughts on why I thought Liefeld's got the vote:

I think Liefeld's piece was better balanced as far as dark and light and composition go. There were some nice uses of fading from light to dark in there and some neat little tricks to capture texture. I think Liefeld's work is abstracted in a lot of ways and that's not necessarily a bad thing.

I think that there is a misconception out there that a (comic) drawing's sole purpose is to be technically accurate. I feel that it's sole purpose is to "engage you". Liefeld's work grabs you and pulls you in.

An ugly, technically bad work that grabs your attention is more powerful than a beautiful, technically sound work that doesn't.

[Aabh]

Uh oh... the problem with that assessment is that it implies the inking was the deciding factor... And we've already established that Liefield didn't ink this... :(

[CrazyDiamond]

Uh oh... the problem with that assessment is that it implies the inking was the deciding factor... And we've already established that Liefield didn't ink this... :(

Bah! Inkers. They pretty much just trace over the pencils anyway. Real men ink their own work.

[Juggertha]

Looks like Rob got himself a KO here.

O.o

[BringerOfStorms]

Looks like Rob got himself a KO here.

O.o

Decisive victory for Rob. Answers the question. I CANNOT do better! It was fun trying though! Thanks for the votes, those of you who voted for me or the other guys.

~BoS