PSF Anatomy 101 Challenge

[Sketchbook]

SCMarooney
http://i.imgur.com/oleI0.jpg

Juggertha
http://cl.ly/1f0q143G2M2i3i223I0q/Drawing-HulkAnatomy.jpg

Sketchbook
http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr141/logopai/anatomy_malecopy.jpg

Ajkarp
http://i734.photobucket.com/albums/ww350/ajkarp/fourview.jpg


The Challenge:

One standing male character, arms relaxed to the side drawn from four points of view.

1. Straight on frontal
2. 45 degree frontal
3. Straight on Side
4. Straight on back

The focus of this exercise is getting all the bulgy bits in all the right places so keep clothing to a minimum or skin tight. Also remember that you'll have to maintain a likeness for the face in the first three views.

[Juggertha]

People, feel free to crit away! This is for learning here... and as you can see, we need all the help you can give. lol

[scmarooney]

First off I'd like to thank Sketchbook for coming up with the idea(s) for the two streetfights in which we are drawing things like turn-around-views to improve upon anatomy-drawing and facial expressions. I have done model-sheets before, but nothing really exactly like this, and it was more difficult than it appears to be at first glance ;)! Also thanks to DFBovey for coming up with or bringing back the Coach's Corner type competitions to PUMMEL. Hopefully these will continue, with success, in the future. Here's a couple quick-shot-crits, and I might come back with more later ;):

@SCMarooney: uggh, truly execrable! What's with the legs, (and everything else) on that 3/4 view?! You, sir, are an embarrasment to monkey's holding pencils everywhere. Hack.

@Juggertha: Nice job on the Hulk turnarounds! It's the most polished of the 4 entries. I dig it overall. My only comment is that it's hard to judge anatomy, per se, on a character like the Hulk who is already massively exaggerrated ;)! (Of course that might just be my jealousy as a fellow competitor for not thinking to do the Hulk myself ;)!)

@Sketchbook: I really like the toned-paper look and the slimmer, less baloony-type muscles. You managed to make him look strong without resorting to Mr. Universe proportions! I also like the white pencil highlights. I feel like his right shoulder might be a bit too far forward in the 3/4 view, though.

@AJKarp: I like that first figure, he looks like a regular guy that you wouldn't want to meet up with in a dark alley. The 3/4 view is also looking pretty good, but the 3rd and 4th figures still need a bit more polish.

[Aabh]

SCMarooney: Good piece, Technicals are good, anatomy is solid. I'll nitpick the front view's hand as not being very comfortable looking and the 3/4's feet as not angling out enough, but that's nit-picking :D. The character holds through each angle... the problem I have is that the challenge called for "arms at side"... I don't want to sound like Dr.whazitsname who insults everyone. ;)

Juggs: Easily the most polished piece of the group. There just is no "relaxed" for Hulk, is there? :D my Nitpick is on the skeletal ulna and radius... toothpicks on Hulk?!? "His weakness is his forearms... just use chopsticks, grab his forearm and twist. SNAP!" o.O :D

Sketchbook: This is a good piece as well, I love the highlights! :) His 3/4 has some torso problems, especially with the far arm. The character holds true through all four pictures, that's good. His crotch changes sizes though between front and 3/4 and his chin is a little distorted in the 3/4. The front and back are the best pieces, there are anatomy problems with the 3/4 and the side is solid. :)

AJ: Your guy activated his cloaking device as he turned around, didn't he? ;) I love the shading on the front pic, I really wish it could have been continued! :( The anatomy problems here are pretty heavy (Sorry man!): He's only 5/5.5 heads tall, for one, which is making him look "Stocky" and short. Generally the hands end mid-thigh and yours end a little high (They get higher as the character rotates). He's okay from head to crotch, but he's short on legs. It's your extremities that got ya! :) Legs are generally longer than the torso, they have almost half of our mass. As your character turns, his spine doesn't describe an "S" curve, he looks like he has scoliosis, his neck is rigid and almost looks like he is in pain. The arms are flat to the body line and don't look very relaxed. The side view of the character's head is larger than the front and 3/4.

I went with Juggertha for Anatomy.

This was an awesome challenge! I hope someone does this again when I'm NOT slammed :D

[BringerOfStorms]

I am having a hard time deciding. They are all markedly better than anything I could whip up.

I guess for now I will just share my only real sentiment. To ALL OF YOU. Thank you for not adding peckers to these fellas.

And with that I bid thee, Good Night.

Best,
~BoS

[BPS Morganza]

SCMarooney - I voted for you, It was the closest to accurate in my opinion. The front view right arm could have been longer and some definition on the back rear view would have been cool.

Juggertha - Everyone drew male anatomy except you, I get that you want to stand out but I don't think it was fair to everyone who drew the topic. Also The proportions on your Hulk are off, the waist is way too thin, no crotch, no knee's but we can see the patella's, the skeletal structure is wrong you have his thigh bones connecting into his spine and some of the bones were too small or thin for his size. I did like the back muscles.

Sketchbook - Very nice and consistent anatomy, but the proportions are off, I think if you worked on your proportions you would nail it. Also some of the musculature you drew was too defined on the back, looked like the skin was removed.

AJKarp - You started out strong and then trailed off. The legs were too short for the torso, basically proportion control is needed. Keep it going.

[Juggertha]

Thanks for the feedback, guys.
Aabh, you're right.. those bones are WAY too small.
Morg, right as well.. need more work on where bones insert.

[Juggertha]

Still in the teens.. Let's get some more votes in here, guys.

As well, the feedback has been very helpful for us - keep it coming if ya can.

[BringerOfStorms]

Still in the teens.. Let's get some more votes in here, guys.

As well, the feedback has been very helpful for us - keep it coming if ya can.

Not really feedback but more a question to you four. Did you guys use any reference (body building mags, anatomy books, Loomis...) or did this all come from your head. I have a really hard time doing anything remotely anatomical just straight outta my bean.

~BoS

[Wassy]

I finally put my finger on what has been nagging at me about Sean's piece. They're all leaning slightly to the left. Was this just because of a crooked crop?

[Juggertha]

Not really feedback but more a question to you four. Did you guys use any reference (body building mags, anatomy books, Loomis...) or did this all come from your head. I have a really hard time doing anything remotely anatomical just straight outta my bean.

~BoS

I totally referenced material for this. I find I have a lot of habits I've built up with anatomy that are...skewed... So I wanted to try to shake off a few.

[Sketchbook]

Not really feedback but more a question to you four. Did you guys use any reference (body building mags, anatomy books, Loomis...) or did this all come from your head. I have a really hard time doing anything remotely anatomical just straight outta my bean.

~BoS

I can't speak for any one else's process but I'll tell you how I wound up with my piece. The whole reason why I wanted to do this challenge was that I wanted to get a more definitive grasp on my understanding of human anatomy. I wanted a good excuse to pull the skin off and draw what was actually there not just rely on guesstimations. That meant looking at and drawing from tons of refference.

I knew that copying and image would 1. Not help me really understand anatomy and 2. Be totally against the rules. So, I set some ground rules for myself. I gave myself five days of the challenge to study anatomy in any way I could. I busted out Grey's anatomy, a couple of iPad anatomy apps, a couple books on figure drawing and a whole lot of refference pics of people with low body fat and a couple pics of me. The focus was on getting a clear understanding of not just where the muscles are but why they are there. Then with two days left to the deadline I put the books and refference away and drew everything I could from memory. When I hit a brick wall or things weren't making sense I'd put the pencil down move away from the drawing desk and take a peek at that section of the body in an anatomy refference. Then I'd close the book or app and get back to work.

I'm not too sure how much I like my finished product. The three quarter view never felt right and doesn't look right now. The figures look skinned. Now that I am a couple days out from drawing it, I am falling out of love with it, but I really love that I am seeing the body in a whole new way. I've got a much better feel for the large muscle masses of the body and a better grasp on complex things like forearms, neck and the lower leg.

In short I'm a better artist than I was a week ago and that feels great. I'll definitely be cooking up more of this kind of challenge int the future.

[Popninja]

Juggs, yours stands out to me because when I look at the negative space between Hulk's arms and body, back and front, they're perfect. How did you pull that off? I know Manga Studio has a symmetry tool that you can use to make it so you can draw a perfectly symmetrical face and body. I'm just curious if you freehanded those front and back views.

[Juggertha]

Nope, I drew out the front one, copied the layer, dragged it down, and used it as a "bounding box" when drawing the back details.

[VagabondX]

Juggertha - Everyone drew male anatomy except you, I get that you want to stand out but I don't think it was fair to everyone who drew the topic.

I'm confused by this comment. Was there an image up when BPS Morganza posted this comment that is no longer there? It doesn't get much more male than the Hulk.

[Juggertha]

To be clear, I picked the Hulk because I plan on doing him for my next piece...and wanted to explore his muscularity and such. As Sketchbook says, I feel that I'm better now than I was a week ago, so in that light, I'm very happy with this challenge.

[VagabondX]

I wasn't questioning your artwork Juggertha. I was confused by BPS Morganza's comment.

[Juggertha]

Yeah, I got that. I'm guessing he meant because the Hulk is so extreme that it didn't qualify as a male anatomy (?).

Honestly, other than his missing member, I think I got (hopefully) most of the anatomy right on him... Just at certain extreme proportions. In fact, I'm enjoying looking at the entries above and seeing how similar they are, in many ways.

[BPS Morganza]

VagabondX-

My point is, exaggerated anatomy is not a typical, how are people going to gauge a Hulk while everyone else drew an average man. I thought the topic was for anatomical study of the human male, not fantasy characters. Maybe everyone should have drawn a Hulk for an equal chance?

The point of them both being male is just semantics.

[Juggertha]

It's funny, because in the initial discussion of this topic, the Hulk was mentioned. But it was never a "you must draw that muscular" or "you can't draw that muscular". It was just sort of brought up.

I can see your point, Morganza, but let me ask you... Would it be different if I can chosen another body type? What if it was a pot-bellied Viking? A super-thin Reed Richards? For me, they all still had the requirements for male anatomy, and thus fulfilling the challenge.

But hey, if you're saying that I didn't enter a piece fulfilling the challenge, perhaps I'd best defer to the other commissioners and Sketchbook as to whether my piece should be disqualified. I'm maybe not best suited to judge in this case.

[VagabondX]

VagabondX-

My point is, exaggerated anatomy is not a typical, how are people going to gauge a Hulk while everyone else drew an average man. I thought the topic was for anatomical study of the human male, not fantasy characters. Maybe everyone should have drawn a Hulk for an equal chance?

The point of them both being male is just semantics.

Ah, I understand now. Forgive me. I'm never referred to as the brightest bulb in the drawer.

[BPS Morganza]

I can see your point, Morganza, but let me ask you... Would it be different if I can chosen another body type? What if it was a pot-bellied Viking? A super-thin Reed Richards? For me, they all still had the requirements for male anatomy, and thus fulfilling the challenge.


Viking...Yes. A stretched out Mr. Fantastic...no. I don't think you need to be disqualified, I'm just stating my opinion, because when I look back at all the entries yours stands out of place. But that had no influence on my voting, the only thing I looked at was anatomy, that's it.

[Juggertha]

As always, man, you're welcome to vote how ya like. You're also welcome to have your reasoning.... And I agree with some of it. It seems though that we differ on the Hulk not being a male figure.

I'm going to defer that to the green lug to hash it out with ya. ;)

[BPS Morganza]

... It seems though that we differ on the Hulk not being a male figure.

When did that happen? The Hulk is more of a monster anatomically was my point. Don't get confused.

[Juggertha]

Ok, let's continue this...

How is the Hulk not a male figure? Does he have human parts? Is he missing human parts? Face it, he is human...simply not of average proportions. But when it comes down to the anatomy of his parts... They are human. I could have drawn his dong in there to emphasize that, but I didn't see the need. Look at the musculature on him... Is it not the same as a human? Does his pec not insert into his delt?

Your issue seems to be that he's not a typical human male... And so I'll ask you; where in the challenge did it say I had to draw a typical human male?

As far as monsters go... That's a big 'ol can of worms. I think that Frankenstein's Monster is a human male... And would be fine if he was drawn for this challenge. He may not be a typical male, but his parts sure do seem right. Godzilla on the other hand might be male, I'm not sure, but he's very far from being human.

Personally, if we were judging who was closest to representing a typical human male, AJ's entry might be the closest to the mark.

But no where in the challenge did it say to draw a typical male.

[CrazyDiamond]

Any chance of doing this again? I'd love to do this type of challenge.

[BPS Morganza]

Juggertha, you are arguing a point I have never made, and you keep doing it for some reason. Sketchbook said the figure didn't have to be the Hulk, so I guess you are right. It's not like he implied there shouldn't be one.

If you want to argue with me more, do it in PM.

[Juggertha]

Any chance of doing this again? I'd love to do this type of challenge.

Yeah, we're going to do a few a month. If memory serves, the next one is due in five days - a femal face turn around.

Hunt for Sketchbook's challenge in the discussion area.



Juggertha, you are arguing a point I have never made, and you keep doing it for some reason. Sketchbook said the figure didn't have to be the Hulk, so I guess you are right. It's not like he implied there shouldn't be one.

If you want to argue with me more, do it in PM.


In your first reply in this thread, you said I did not draw male anatomy. You had an issue with me fulfilling the challenge.

Others have questioned that, and I think you're wrong. You're welcome to your opinion, but I'm also welcome to challenge it.

If you don't like that fact of this forum, take it to PMs.

[BPS Morganza]

I already told VagabondX what I meant by that statement, I've explained it, yet you keep going back to it. I know the Hulk is a male. The Hulk is also a big boned muscle bound seven foot monster that stands out in a crowd. I guess using "male anatomy" was a wrong choice of words but I didn't know how else to phrase it at the time, but if you still insist I think the Hulk is not male, even after I explained my statement, then that's on you.

Also, what is "that fact of this forum"? To challenge crits and opinions asked for?

[Juggertha]

Here's what I'm objecting to...


My point is, exaggerated anatomy is not a typical, how are people going to gauge a Hulk while everyone else drew an average man. I thought the topic was for anatomical study of the human male, not fantasy characters. Maybe everyone should have drawn a Hulk for an equal chance?


No where in the topic was an "average/typical" man mentioned. Your calling me out on it is YOUR interpretation of the topic, NOT the topic as stated.

I have no problem with your crits on my anatomy... I agree with many of them
But I disagree with this part. And yeah, that is part if this forum - ppl are encouraged to give crits and comments, but are also asked to back them up on occasion. That's not new here, so I don't see why it's a surprise to you.

But as I've said, if any competitor thinks I should be disqualified, or someone objects to the Hulk being used as a male anatomy study, feel free to PM another commissioner. In this bout, I'm just a brawler.

[BPS Morganza]

Here's what I'm objecting to...



No where in the topic was an "average/typical" man mentioned. Your calling me out on it is YOUR interpretation of the topic, NOT the topic as stated.

I have no problem with your crits on my anatomy... I agree with many of them
But I disagree with this part. And yeah, that is part if this forum - ppl are encouraged to give crits and comments, but are also asked to back them up on occasion. That's not new here, so I don't see why it's a surprise to you.

But as I've said, if any competitor thinks I should be disqualified, or someone objects to the Hulk being used as a male anatomy study, feel free to PM another commissioner. In this bout, I'm just a brawler.

Then why did everyone else draw an average human male, seems like they could of done any male being? I can't fault you for being a visionary then.

I've noticed there is a demand for my crits to be backed up lately, maybe I'm too harsh, or not qualified.

[Juggertha]

Not at all, man. I think you are an extremely skilled artist!

But as to how ppl approach topics, yeah, there's bound to be some divergence. I even stripped the skin off of mine in parts, clothed parts, and tried to show the skeletal system.

No one else did that. Does that mean I'm a visionary? Ha! No idea. But I knew very much what I wanted to practice when I started this piece.

If I pull it out of the vote due to objections, so be it. I feel like I've learned a bit from it.

[scmarooney]

I finally put my finger on what has been nagging at me about Sean's piece. They're all leaning slightly to the left. Was this just because of a crooked crop?

Hmmm, I have to cop to not noticing this before now, as I thought I got the scan lined up straight. I actually drew this at 11x17 and there was some space between the figures. I (digitally) "cut and pasted" them onto a blank white background to reduce the actual space between them (well between 2 of them anyhow.) I think you can still see some of the lines I drew that were vertical to line everything up ;). In any case I am going to keep an eye out for this left "leaning" in the future and see if I can track it down, thanks!

Oh, and on the topic of reference for this challenge I have an old, dog-eared print-out from the .pdf of Loomis' "Figure Drawing" book (which was out of print when I d'loaded it years ago ;)) that shows the proportions for male and female figures hanging on the cork-board near my drawing table. I'm sure I glanced at it more than once during the drawing of this whole thing :).

This was an interesting and semi-difficult challenge, far more so than I thought it would be when I signed up for it. I think everyone interested in improving their figure drawing ought to give something like this a shot. Heck, I might try it again sometime in the near future :)!

[Wassy]

I have to say that you four should have manned up and drawn some dongs. I had an entire year of figure drawing where we had a male model 90% of the time. I have lots of dongs tucked away in my old art portfolio. EVERYONE ELSE SHOULD SUFFER, TOO.

[Juggertha]

Has Hulk's ever been drawn?

Is he of any particular religion?

[Wassy]

These are artistic areas that you should explore to further your critical thinking skills. And to suffer.

[dfbovey]

I voted for sketchbook if we are voting on straight up anatomy. I thought his was the best representation with the least errors.

SCM, I liked most of yours with the exception of the back. Backs are tricky. If there was more definition or indicators of the various back muscles in that shot, it would have been a toss up between you and sketchbook.

Juggs, I like yours but would echo a lot of what Morg said. I think it was a creative attempt but if we are basing it off of anatomy alone, accuracy is the most important thing. And while I think its cool you included a skeleton, it wasn't done accurately.

AJ, nice job on yours as well but some gereral refinement and precision is needed in my opinion. You have some proportion issues off the bat with one leg being wider than the other, and you didn't finish.

[Sketchbook]

It's funny, because in the initial discussion of this topic, the Hulk was mentioned. But it was never a "you must draw that muscular" or "you can't draw that muscular". It was just sort of brought up.

I can see your point, Morganza, but let me ask you... Would it be different if I can chosen another body type? What if it was a pot-bellied Viking? A super-thin Reed Richards? For me, they all still had the requirements for male anatomy, and thus fulfilling the challenge.

But hey, if you're saying that I didn't enter a piece fulfilling the challenge, perhaps I'd best defer to the other commissioners and Sketchbook as to whether my piece should be disqualified. I'm maybe not best suited to judge in this case.


Sorry guys I should have replied to this debate a bit earlier, I hadn't checked the thread in awhile.

I think this challenge has brought up some interesting issues for how we'll evaluate future challenges of this sort. It didn't turn out exactly as I had thought it would but I certainly don't think anyone ought to be disqualified. And I think we can all be pretty happy with the results.

I don't have any problem with he Hulk as a subject for male anatomy study, as long as all the muscles are present and things have been scaled up in an way that respects the placement of muscle and structure of skeletal elements. The aspect of Jugg's piece that gave me most pause was the 3/4 turn skeleton. I found the 3/4 to be the most challenging pose to draw and I was hoping to see how everyone would deal with the layering of muscle and perspective of that pose.

But, I'm happy to let voters decide where they feel their votes are best deserved. I have no qualms with the way the voting has turned out and I think Juggs turned in a fantastic piece.

These kinds of challenges are tough to draw up. On the one hand you want everyone working on the same group of skills and on the other hand you don't want to dictate things to the point that no one participates because they don't feel free to express themselves. A big part of the magic in Pummel is the way people run in totally different directions with the same idea as a starting point. My personal feeling is that the challenge should be posted with the poll and voters themselves should read through the challenge before they cast their vote. Once the voters read through the challenge I feel pretty certain that they'll be accurate in their judgement.

This is a sort of new approach for Pummel, so it is going to take a bit of time to figure out, as a community, the best way to incorporate this kind of challenge. Let's trust our voters and work on the clarity of the challenges. Give us a few more rounds and we'll have this working like a well oiled artist improvement machine.

[VagabondX]

Can I revoke my original question that caused all the strife?

[Sketchbook]

Can I revoke my original question that caused all the strife?


Of course not we're all planning to hold this against you forever:D

Seriously though, you raised a good point that we needed to talk through. And the issue will come up again but each time it does we'll be a little more clear on how things sort out. Developing ideas on in forums like this is sort of like a couple hundred artists making a sculpture out of clay somebody adds something, somebody takes something away. Sometimes people really disagree with the direction the sculpture is going and storm out, other people spend all their time hanging out adding, subtracting and shaping.

Pummel is a work in progress and it is questions like yours that help us, as a community, decide on we are going to proceed. Tempers may flare, but that's okay. It just shows that people care enough to have an opinion.

[Juggertha]

Only a few more hours left... let's see if we can muster a few more votes.

[Juggertha]

Well, it ended as a tie. lol

Sort of fitting.

[scmarooney]

Well, it ended as a tie. lol

Sort of fitting.

Guess we'll have to have another streetfight one of these months to settle this :D?