Rules... A bit of a discussion

[Juggertha]

Weve had something come up on another thread that should best be moved here. But it got me thinking, are there any other rules that ppl are curious about or we need to clarify?


The first issue is...

When in a match, is it mandatory, or just good manners, to inform your opponent that you're doing sequentials?

[Dri]

If the higher ranked fighter is saying he/she is only doing pin ups but the lower rank opponent is doing sequentials, what happens then?

[dfbovey]

It's always been at least the etiquette that if you're doing sequentials for a ranked match, that you let your opponent know. I think that since sequentials happen in less than 5% of ranked matches, it's the proper and fair thing to do. That way your opponent has the knowledge and opportunity to match the effort if they want to or have the time to.

It was recently added to the list of rules as a formal rule, which seems to be the source of the confusion.

If it's a rule, how is that rule to be enforced? DQ is too steep. So what would the action taken have to be if it's kept as a rule?

[dfbovey]

If the higher ranked fighter is saying he/she is only doing pin ups but the lower rank opponent is doing sequentials, what happens then?

People can do whatever they want regardless of rank when it comes to sequentials. The only requirement is that you let your opponent know so that they can match it if they wish to.

[Popninja]

This "gentlemen's agreement" has been around for a while now. i seem to recall it being discussed a really long time ago, like in the early first year of PUMMEL, so it's not like it's new.

I'm more interested in the charge that Fallen actually deceived Bovey and told him he was doing one thing, and then turned around and did another. That's kind of messed up, if you ask me.

[NewYorkPicasso]

IMO both contestants should be held to a rematch to clear up any misunderstanding so that way we have an "untainted" Champion. I like both of these guys and I respect both of their work, Fallen has stepped up his game bigtime and deserves to be Champion based on his awesome piece but Bovey is still top banana round these parts cause his game was always tight from the get go. If they both leave Pummel as they said they would that is a loss for the division and for all the voters and I would hate for them both to walk away under the current circumstances so I say...RRRREEEEEEEEEMMMMMAAAAAATCCCCCHHHHH!!!! (Mortal Combat music in the background)

[Juggertha]

It was recently added to the list of rules as a formal rule, which seems to be the source of the confusion.

If it's a rule, how is that rule to be enforced? DQ is too steep. So what would the action taken have to be if it's kept as a rule?

Yup, there's the issue IMO. if this is a rule, and it certain is now written as one, what do we do about someone who doesn't follow it?

Don't show up for a match = drop 4
Copy other artwork = disqualified
Draw big boobies = instant win

Don't let your opponent know you are doing sequentials = submit only one panel?

We've had this issue before when people submitted multiple works in a draw off. We asked them to submit only one if it was deemed that they were too different from each other. That was one decision that never totally set right with me.

It's been mentioned before that perhaps we need not even tell about doing sequentials. We don't tell about about battle scenes, group shots, or fold out spreads... So why only this?

I know we're trying to keep it an "apples to apples" sort of thing, but I also see the other side of trying to keep it as open as possible.

Meh

No matter to me really. My main issue is with it 1. Suddenly becoming a hard and fast rule, and 2. Setting a rule on its enforcement.

[blamito]

I'm more interested in the charge that Fallen actually deceived Bovey and told him he was doing one thing, and then turned around and did another. That's kind of messed up, if you ask me.

I don't agree with the way this went down, but I couldn't find anywhere that fallen said he was doing a pin up. He did say he was doing a digital painting, and he did one, and then a bunch of penciled panels as well. BUT, we're not really here to talk about what he negelcted to state.

I'm fine with it being/becoming a rule or not being a rule. We have had unforseen issues in the past and made rules to help that they don't happen again. I can see the reasoning behind a "level playing field"and I can also seethe reasoning behind "everyone should bring their best effort.

I think if it's going to be a rule, when you state and accept your topic for the month is when you should state if you are doing sequentials. So it should be "Hey, our topic is______, I plan on doing sequentials", or "I accept your topic, I plan on doing sequentials". Otherwise, don't do sequentials.

I would suggest sequential intent needs to be stated by the 5th, but if people already start on a pin up, then find out they're up against sequentials...well, I wouldn't be too happy. So I think right away is best.

[Juggertha]

That brings up a good point... What f someone starts with a pin-up in mind, but changes their idea and wants to do sequentials? Are we really saying "no, you can't do them because you didn't announce it at the start of the month"? Heck, as far as I figure, half of pummelers don't really get into their piece until half the month is gone.

I likd it as a gentleman's rule, and am not sure it needs to be changed.

[dfbovey]

That brings up a good point... What f someone starts with a pin-up in mind, but changes their idea and wants to do sequentials? Are we really saying "no, you can't do them because you didn't announce it at the start of the month"? Heck, as far as I figure, half of pummelers don't really get into their piece until half the month is gone.

I likd it as a gentleman's rule, and am not sure it needs to be changed.

If it's a rule, yeah... you have to stick to what you said you were going to do from the outset. If you didn't declare that you were going to do sequential art for a ranked match, then you just don't do sequential art. That should be the case whether it's a rule or just etiquette in my opinion.

If it's a steadfast rule then there's recourse. If it's just etiquette, then it just causes people to get bent out of shape when something like this happens.

To me when someone says they are going to do a digital painting. I'm assuming that means one piece. Not one piece, 3 sequential pages and a two page spread pinup. At that point it should have been said that hey, I'm doing sequentials. Or even maybe I'm doing sequentials if you're not sure.

[Juggertha]

So then should we have penalties for ppl who say they are going to do sequentials...and don't?

I start off the month with an eye for doing some pages, run out of time, and only post up a pin up. Should I be penalized?


And if not, perhaps everyone should always just declare they are doing sequentials...just to be on the safe side.

/shrug

I worry about how controlling this is all feeling.

[Teratophile]

It's a silly rule for monthlies. Monthlies are inherently no-holds barred (aside from using appropriated imagery). It can be a strategy to win, why should anyone be required display your cards? Just go into it assuming that your opponent might do a comic page?

for street fights it's different as date and medium need to be agreed upon.

[dfbovey]

Yeah. It's a weird fine line.

If anything is enforced as a rule, it would be a person having to pick a panel from the sequential pages to use as the entry. That's how it would have to be enforced.

But it still boils down to something very simple. Just say there's a possibility of doing sequential pages if it's even a thought in your mind that it's something you might want to do. It's not hard.

[dfbovey]

I see it differently because sequential pages can be a massive undertaking and I don't see the point in assuming my opponent will do pages when it's a rarity. It makes no sense to assume it given the frequency. I don't see the problem in just stating your intentions. It's always been that way.

To me it's not the same is pencils vs. digital colors. It's a completely different level of commitment and it shouldn't be used as a sneak attack.

[Teratophile]

I don't see the problem in concealing your intentions in a competition. Sometimes it's not even about concealment, it's people changing their mind in the middle of the month. I've done sequentials and multiple images, not out of deception, but out of sudden overzealousness. Sometimes it has worked out and sometimes it hasnt.

I understand your guys points about consideration. Consideration should be an option not a rule.

[dfbovey]

I can see your point of view too, that was actually part of the spirit of Pummel is bring all you got. But that never really applied to sequential pages, that thought was always more towards what you bring to the table as far as your general drawing, inking, painting or digital coloring skills go. Sequential art was always kind of a bonus thing to do and it's always been an uneasy marriage when you throw 1 pin up against 3-5 or even 6 pages of art.

Just looking at this as a spectator or someone who'd vote on the matches and taking my competitive hat off, It's difficult to know how to even compare. I prefer to see matches where the parameters are generally the same, because putting together sequential pages is a completely different skill set compared to putting together a single image.

[Juggertha]

But to me, that's always been the difference between a Street Fight, and a Monthly.

Street Fights had every limit negotiable. Date, medium, topic, colors, etc..

Monthlies, the higher ranked fighter picked the topic, and the two brought all that they could. If someone airbrushed a car, or did a crayon sidewalk drawing, it was all fair game.

That's why I was always fine with the casual "it's considered good manners to notify your opponent if you're doing sequential pages". Because it wasn't about stopping someone from being able to do them, it was just a little hat tip... And that's all.

[Ncyte77Etern]

Truth be told....I'd probably be pissed if that happened to me. Sequentials and a pin-up cannot be judged the same. Ask that comic rep at the convention when I show some awesome artwork but didn't bring sequential pages.

I can understand if it was agreed upon from the start, bovey says "I know you're doing seqs but I'm still doing a pin-up," then all would be well. Done sneakily, to me, it's the reverse of a challenge being set and the opponent doesn't submit any work at all: just as bad. Jose Conseco tried the switcheroo and it was frowned upon. This is, to me, supposed to be a setting where we engage in friendly competition, pushing each other to new levels, not resorting to backhanded means to win.I'm by no means saying that Fallen intentionally tried to be sneaky, matter of fact, he could have just submitted the 3rd drawn page and he would have had my vote in this one. However, this situation, not handled properly, will evolve into dirty tactics.


I think the rule should be adhered to and enforced...why?

1. It's there already. Probablyfor a good reason.

2. It prevents crap threads like this.

3. It prevents hard feelings and animosity.

My two cents.

BTW, you guys (Bovey and Fallen) better not leave! Looking at my Weigh-In (http://www.penciljack.com/forum/showthread.php?112431-Weighing-In), seems we might be in the same division:cool:

[sirandal]

Since it was ammended as a hard rule w/o full discussion amongst the commissioners, perhaps it should be further amended that sequentials must be agreed upon by both parties (since the line between monthly and streetfight has already been encroached upon.)

[Juggertha]

So now if I want to do sequentials, the other guy has to agree as well?

Really?

[sirandal]

Is this a discussion or not? I only made a suggestion. I backed out all the additional stuff where I suggested that, like teratophile, I am inclined to think that the actual best course is to leave it completely open.

[Ncyte77Etern]

I say it should at least be up to the higher ranked fighter, especially in mandatory monthlies. Talk about "climbing the mountain."

How many people do sequentials for these matches anyway?

If it's that essential, battling with them and such, create a PUMMEL SEQUENTIAL DIVISION.

[dfbovey]

But to me, that's always been the difference between a Street Fight, and a Monthly.

Street Fights had every limit negotiable. Date, medium, topic, colors, etc..

Monthlies, the higher ranked fighter picked the topic, and the two brought all that they could. If someone airbrushed a car, or did a crayon sidewalk drawing, it was all fair game.

That's why I was always fine with the casual "it's considered good manners to notify your opponent if you're doing sequential pages". Because it wasn't about stopping someone from being able to do them, it was just a little hat tip... And that's all.

Yeah, but that anything goes thing never really applied to the addition of sequential art. It always applied to medium. There was a lot of discussion about this early on and that's why it's always been the etiquette to at least let your opponent know what's going on. That was part of the debate when we first started allowing sequential art to be involved. In the original tournament, sequential art wasn't even allowed. It was something that was added in later because people were requesting it. I don't think it was integrated very smoothly to be honest.

[sirandal]

I don't think it was integrated very smoothly to be honest.

I wasnt there, but that seems to be the case to me, too.

[Juggertha]

Is this a discussion or not? I only made a suggestion. .

And I questioned your suggestion. Still a discussion. Are you seriously saying that you should need to get permission from your opponent to do sequentials?



Yeah, but that anything goes thing never really applied to the addition of sequential art. It always applied to medium. There was a lot of discussion about this early on and that's why it's always been the etiquette to at least let your opponent know what's going on. That was part of the debate when we first started allowing sequential art to be involved. In the original tournament, sequential art wasn't even allowed. It was something that was added in later because people were requesting it. I don't think it was integrated very smoothly to be honest.

I thought we were trying to promote sequentials here as well as pin ups. This "apples to oranges" thing has been brought up before.

How can we compare a penciled sketch to a colored piece? Inks to watercolors? Sequentials to pin ups?

We do.

There's a topic, and different people approach it different ways. Then more different ppl vote on it with varying opinions.

Isn't that the name of this game?

[Teratophile]

I say it should at least be up to the higher ranked fighter, especially in mandatory monthlies. Talk about "climbing the mountain."

How many people do sequentials for these matches anyway?

If it's that essential, battling with them and such, create a PUMMEL SEQUENTIAL DIVISION.


Sequentials arent a regular thing. if there was a sequential division it most likely would have tumbleweeds running through it. They're hard man!


Juggertha, stop making me like your point of view.

[sirandal]

Like I said in my reply, I only made a suggestion and in fact I personally believe it should remain open.

And as for whether a person is a gentleman or lady (or not) is really up to the individual IMO.

And finally there is really no such thing as an unwritten rule. It is a rule or it isnt and there are consequences for breaking rules.

[Ncyte77Etern]

Sequentials arent a regular thing. if there was a sequential division it most likely would have tumbleweeds running through it. They're hard man!

Who you tellin'! Very hard.

In response to Juggertha, judging a single image is alot easier to do than a single image vs. a mini-comic. They aren't done for the same reasons. A pin-up, no matter what medium, isn't trying to tell a story through sequential frames.

Leaving it open or adhering to the rule...really makes no dif to me. I'd have probably still been a lil' tweeked if I were Bovey though.

[dfbovey]

I really think the best course is this.

Sequentials are allowed. Both parties don't have to agree to it. If someone wants to do pages they just need to let their opponent know so they have the opportunity to match the effort. I don't think this is too much to ask for. And really, to this point that etiquette has been followed, and I think it should always be followed.

Really, when you go back over the life of Pummel I don't think that etiquette has been breached too often that I've seen. Usually, people are very good about announcing their intent when they plan on doing sequentials.

Leaving it as just simple etiquette does open things up for people getting pissed off... but maybe that's just the best option. Maybe see how long it is until the next blow up but keep thinking about solutions in the meantime.

[Teratophile]

wasn't the only real blow up against Krikkit and Kris Diaz? That was probably the prime example of this.

[Juggertha]

In response to Juggertha, judging a single image is alot easier to do than a single image vs. a mini-comic. They aren't done for the same reasons. A pin-up, no matter what medium, isn't trying to tell a story through sequential frames.

No, but it is trying to tell a story often enough.

We've been judging/voting on sequentials vs pin ups for years now. I've personally been involved in numerous matches where sequentials have went against pin ups. And... People still voted. They still had opinions. They still had things they liked or didn't like.

It may not be exactly apples vs apples... But I'm starting to thnk a bunch of ya are fruity anyways. ;)

[Ncyte77Etern]

Solution: PUMMEL SEQUENTIAL DIVISION

Give me a couple months to get right and I'd be an advocate.

[dfbovey]

I thought we were trying to promote sequentials here as well as pin ups. This "apples to oranges" thing has been brought up before.

How can we compare a penciled sketch to a colored piece? Inks to watercolors? Sequentials to pin ups?

We do.

There's a topic, and different people approach it different ways. Then more different ppl vote on it with varying opinions.

Isn't that the name of this game?

We are trying to promote sequentials. Announcing your intent to do sequentials should probably influence your opponent to do the same, right?

Nobody is talking about getting rid of sequentials. I'm promoting sequentials while also wanting the best possible chances for an even playing field. And you can't have that with sneak attack sequentials.

As far as the other stuff, it's all illustration. A pin up is a pin up and has it's purpose. You can color, ink and paint sequentials just as you can a pin up but they are completely different animals. The skills that you have in your arsenal and media you use to create a pin up or in some cases sequential art is always what's been no restrictions.

[Juggertha]

Solution: PUMMEL SEQUENTIAL DIVISION

Give me a couple months to get right and I'd be an advocate.

We've got SequentialMania due on the 4th of this month. Check the sticky at the top of this section.

I think it's a great idea, but I don't think there'd be enough continued interest in it to sustain it.

[Ncyte77Etern]

I think it's a great idea, but I don't think there'd be enough continued interest in it to sustain it.

You just have to do it right. I can give suggestions if there's interest.

[Juggertha]

Nobody is talking about getting rid of sequentials. I'm promoting sequentials while also wanting the best possible chances for an even playing field. And you can't have that with sneak attack sequentials.

I get the feeling that one might feel like they were snuck up on. But I've also felt that way before. I can recall a few time where I've seen "character X challenge", but then the guy throws in a helicarrier to boot! But, but... I thought it was just a simple character challenge? But the guy took it to the next level.

How can we judge a fully rendered battle scene vs a simple character pin up?

We do.

We vote.




I do agree with you about it being good manners to let the opponent know (so as to allow them to step up to that level), but wouldn't that apply to all efforts that go beyond the minimum? Like my example above?

[Ncyte77Etern]

:p
I get the feeling that one might feel like they were snuck up on. But I've also felt that way before. I can recall a few time where I've seen "character X challenge", but then the guy throws in a helicarrier to boot! But, but... I thought it was just a simple character challenge? But the guy took it to the next level.

How can we judge a fully rendered battle scene vs a simple character pin up?

We do.

We vote.




I do agree with you about it being good manners to let the opponent know (so as to allow them to step up to that level), but wouldn't that apply to all efforts that go beyond the minimum? Like my example above?

Have you seen my single character pinups? I'd put them against a battlescene anytime.:p

[basil81]

We've got SequentialMania due on the 4th of this month. Check the sticky at the top of this section.

I think it's a great idea, but I don't think there'd be enough continued interest in it to sustain it.

4th, I thought it was 5th (which it is)...don't scare me like that.

[dfbovey]

No, but it is trying to tell a story often enough.

We've been judging/voting on sequentials vs pin ups for years now. I've personally been involved in numerous matches where sequentials have went against pin ups. And... People still voted. They still had opinions. They still had things they liked or didn't like.

It may not be exactly apples vs apples... But I'm starting to thnk a bunch of ya are fruity anyways. ;)

It happens. And even though I don't like judging those matches I don't want to restrict it. All I'm saying is... JUST TELL PEOPLE YOU'RE DOING THEM. That way your opponent has the option to match the effort or just do a pin up. If they choose not to, well, that's on them. They know what's coming.

I've had two matches against sequential art where I submitted a pin up. Both vs. fallenangel. I won one and lost one. I would have been fine with losing the first match, because at least I knew what I was up against. Because etiquette was followed and I was informed. If I had lost due to lack of effort. It's on me, because I knew what was coming. When you don't know or someone tells you something and does the opposite... I'm not cool with that. It's not a fun feeling and it's not really sportsmanlike in my opinion. If you say you're going to do something, I think you should stick to it. Because people will plan around that accordingly. I was relieved when Fallen said he was just going to do a digital painting because I knew this was going to be a tight month for me time wise. I had planned on doing sequentials if he was going to because I wanted to match that effort after he did pages the last time around. I said as much two months ago when we faced each other. And that's where I'm like WTF just happened here when I saw that wall of art I had to face this month.

[dfbovey]

wasn't the only real blow up against Krikkit and Kris Diaz? That was probably the prime example of this.

Yeah, I remember that one.

[Juggertha]

4th, I thought it was 5th (which it is)...don't scare me like that.

You're right. I'm wrong. And I'm the idiot who's running the thing. lol


All I'm saying is... JUST TELL PEOPLE YOU'RE DOING THEM.

I agree with this. The truth is (a general example)... If I saw someone say I'm not doing sequentials, and then they came with them and said - got 'cha! I'd be tempted to vote against them just for the skulduggery of it.

But, the question at hand, and from the OP is... Is this a rule? When did it become a set rule? And how do we enforce it?


I really wish JC was on so he could post about why he wrote/rewrote it that way.

[Ncyte77Etern]

And that's where I'm like WTF just happened here when I saw that wall of art I had to face this month.

Your pin-up was, in a sense, true to life then...

Btw, I could not bring myself to vote on the match bcs of the controversy surrounding it.

[dfbovey]

You're right. I'm wrong. And I'm the idiot who's running the thing. lol



I agree with this. The truth is (a general example)... If I saw someone say I'm not doing sequentials, and then they came with them and said - got 'cha! I'd be tempted to vote against them just for the skulduggery of it.

But, the question at hand, and from the OP is... Is this a rule? When did it become a set rule? And how do we enforce it?


I really wish JC was on so he could post about why he wrote/rewrote it that way.

Yeah, in the end I don't know that it should or can be a rule but I suppose I reserve the right to get really pissed off when that etiquette isn't followed. DQ doesn't make sense. Taking a single panel from several pages doesn't really make sense. There doesn't seem to be a logical way to enforce it as a rule.

[dfbovey]

Your pin-up was, in a sense, true to life then...

Btw, I could not bring myself to vote on the match bcs of the controversy surrounding it.

I feel bad for the controversy. I'd rather it didn't exist.

[Juggertha]

Yup, that's how I'm feeling too.


So then I come back to the ettiquite nature of it. And that is usually enforced by the forum community. If someone really steps out of line, they get mob-smacked. I could see that happening if this sort of issue clearly comes up again.

"you little effer! You said you weren't going to do sequentials!? Here's your quote!"

For some reason, I think that'd sway people's opinions/votes. Or at least put that competitor on the shit list when people consider fighting with them.

[Ncyte77Etern]

Yup, that's how I'm feeling too.


So then I come back to the ettiquite nature of it. And that is usually enforced by the forum community. If someone really steps out of line, they get mob-smacked. I could see that happening if this sort of issue clearly comes up again.

"you little effer! You said you weren't going to do sequentials!? Here's your quote!"

For some reason, I think that'd sway people's opinions/votes. Or at least put that competitor on the shit list when people consider fighting with them.

Dude, this thread IS a smackdown.

[spidey976]

As the second guy into a commissioners jacket after bovey himself I remember the sequentials discussions and in the end we left it as an agreement of principal because frankly it was just one of those things we didn't feel had to be beaten to death. However, I think that it should be handled one of two ways

1) Make it a RULE as JC has. When a blind side happens the guy who did it has to put up a single panel or page of work

or

2) Scrap the etiquette completely and just say that sequentials are always on the table.

Honestly, it should either BE a RULE or it SHOULDN'T BE. The commissioners should be able to either enforce it or NOT. When we leave grey areas we leave ourselves open to cases like this where what should have been a well fought match now has a cloud over it.

[Ncyte77Etern]

I say make it a rule. Can't really hurt that way, now can it?

[Dann]

When I did sequentials against Chris a few months ago, I made it a point to let him know. Personally, I want a clear conscience when I KO someone. Leaves no room for arguement, in my opinion.
Maybe if it was at least STRESSED in the headers each month that it'd be the "polite" thing to let your opponent know you're doing pages early on, that would clear the deck for everyone.

[Ncyte77Etern]

Personally, I want a clear conscience when I KO someone.

Definitely.

[dfbovey]

When I did sequentials against Chris a few months ago, I made it a point to let him know. Personally, I want a clear conscience when I KO someone. Leaves no room for arguement, in my opinion.
Maybe if it was at least STRESSED in the headers each month that it'd be the "polite" thing to let your opponent know you're doing pages early on, that would clear the deck for everyone.

Good idea, Dann.

"Please inform your opponent if you will or might do sequential pages once you receive your topic."

[dfbovey]

I agree with this. The truth is (a general example)... If I saw someone say I'm not doing sequentials, and then they came with them and said - got 'cha! I'd be tempted to vote against them just for the skulduggery of it.

But, the question at hand, and from the OP is... Is this a rule? When did it become a set rule? And how do we enforce it?

I really wish JC was on so he could post about why he wrote/rewrote it that way.

Different people will see it different ways. Some people will be called a whiner for even bringing it up it seems.

[Dann]

I never saw the harm in it really...I told Chris, he said "fine" and he only did a pin up. I also think an extremely good pin up can still beat sequentials anyday. It's like pencils vs. coloring. I really hate that people still vote on a colored piece over pencils at times...I also hate it when people say they can't submit any art for Pummel because their tablet is broken or whatever...the idea of picking up an ACTUAL PENCIL never seems to enter their minds!

Okay...I'm through ranting!

[Ncyte77Etern]

I never saw the harm in it really...I told Chris, he said "fine" and he only did a pin up. I also think an extremely good pin up can still beat sequentials anyday. It's like pencils vs. coloring. I really hate that people still vote on a colored piece over pencils at times...I also hate it when people say they can't submit any art for Pummel because their tablet is broken or whatever...the idea of picking up an ACTUAL PENCIL never seems to enter their minds!

Okay...I'm through ranting!


No!!! More rant! More Rant!:)

[Dann]

No!!! More rant! More Rant!:)

LOL...I would, but I don't want to turn into a Selkirk or Donnstar.

[Ncyte77Etern]

So will there be a rematch? Best outta 3? Some resolution? I feel bad for Fallen... No true competitor could enjoy a vic like this.

[spidey976]

Different people will see it different ways. Some people will be called a whiner for even bringing it up it seems.

You are not whining you were blindsided so you are stating a point of view. However I think the ambiguaty in some of our "rules" has always been a problem.

I think it has to be either we sh*t or get off the pot. We either make it a rule or we scrap it. That way we don't have ANOTHER one of these threads where we end up debating the same old same old. 6 pages into this thread and in the end it seems that we haven't decided ANYTHING.

Or should I say you guys haven't decided anything ... I am still on my PUMMEL VACATION ... ;)

[dfbovey]

So will there be a rematch? Best outta 3? Some resolution? I feel bad for Fallen... No true competitor could enjoy a vic like this.

I'd be open to it eventually. I'm sure he would too. I don't like what happened and I'm sure he doesn't either. There is no ill will on my end, I'm ticked at what happened but not at the person. I think he might be mad at me at this point. I won't hold a grudge over it. Shit happens and it's kinda like playing basketball with your friends, you still get fouled... shit happens and you keep playing and you're still friends. That's the way I see it anyway.

But it would be nice to have a good rebound match to clear the stench in the air and I think it would be a good way to put it all behind us. In the end, I don't think he meant any harm or did it purposefully. It was just miscommunication or bad communication.

Both of us kinda said before this match even happened that we were going to be stepping out for a bit though so I don't know if or when that could possibly happen.

[dfbovey]

You are not whining you were blindsided so you are stating a point of view. However I think the ambiguaty in some of our "rules" has always been a problem.

I think it has to be either we sh*t or get off the pot. We either make it a rule or we scrap it. That way we don't have ANOTHER one of these threads where we end up debating the same old same old. 6 pages into this thread and in the end it seems that we haven't decided ANYTHING.

Or should I say you guys haven't decided anything ... I am still on my PUMMEL VACATION ... ;)

Yeah, this is just one of those things where it's very difficult to know what the best option is. I mean, if these kinds of problems only happen once in a blue moon is it really a problem? It's worth discussing. Even though yeah, it's been something that has been debated even when Pummel was first starting up. It's a bit tricky.

[Juggertha]

Yeah, this is just one of those things where it's very difficult to know what the best option is. I mean, if these kinds of problems only happen once in a blue moon is it really a problem? It's worth discussing. Even though yeah, it's been something that has been debated even when Pummel was first starting up. It's a bit tricky.

Agreed. I think it's worth a discussion, for sure. But I'm not sure it'll mean a rule change.

Any time someone of feeling miffed or jilted, I think it's great we talk about it. Usually, us commissioners get PMs about this sort of stuff, we talk about it in a similar nature as what we're doing here, and then we vote on it.

You guys are just getting a big peek at the process.

[Ncyte77Etern]

...I'd rather be drawing.

[spidey976]

Yeah, this is just one of those things where it's very difficult to know what the best option is. I mean, if these kinds of problems only happen once in a blue moon is it really a problem? It's worth discussing. Even though yeah, it's been something that has been debated even when Pummel was first starting up. It's a bit tricky.

I remeber the discussions. However, and I mean this with ALL HONESTY ... threads like this DRIVE ME MAD ... and it was an assortment of ones like this that in part made me take a brake from being one of the guys in charge of this whole shindig.

Here is how they go

"Argument 1 Stated

Argument 2 Stated Parital Rebuntal

But NO Arugement 1 is the way to go

Actually I like Argument 2

But see this is why ARGUMENT 1 IS THE BEST!!!!!

No SCREW YOU ARGUMENT 2 is the BOMB!!!!!

I like argument 3

or we could leave things the way they are

oh ... you know that might be the best thing

yeah

Argument 4 ROCKS SOCKS!!!! "

See my edges are just TO sharp for this type of arguement right now. However, if something ISN'T decided in a CONCRETE and DECISIVE manor then honestly Dave you wasted your time, and a championship match was basically tarnished for NO good reason.

[spidey976]

Agreed. I think it's worth a discussion, for sure. But I'm not sure it'll mean a rule change. Any time someone of feeling miffed or jilted, I think it's great we talk about it. Usually, us commissioners get PMs about this sort of stuff, we talk about it in a similar nature as what we're doing here, and then we vote on it.

You guys are just getting a big peek at the process.

Ed you know I respect you dude ... but do you REALLY want to be going over this again because you will be eventually, and no HARDSET RULE means that you have nothing to fall back on when it does.

[scmarooney]

This has been an interesting thread to read through. I might not have voted on the Championship match if I knew there was going to be a controversy of sorts surrounding it, either.

I think I'm guilty of doing the opposite of the Bovey/Fallen thing this month in my match against Jesse. I mentioned I would try to do sequentials this month back around the time that topics were selected, but just ran out of time/energy/motivation and had to do a more standard drawing in order not to be a no-show for our match. I think Ed raised the point, but not sure what you do if someone says they will do sequentials and doesn't do them? A drawing of any sort, IMO, beats a no-show in the final analysis.

I've certainly done a lot of sequential pages for my PUMMEL matches and would like to continue doing them in the future (if I can find the time and interest), and will continue to try to warn my opponent ahead of time of my intention to do so. Not sure a rule change is going to make much difference? This should probably continue to be a "gentleman's agreement" sort of thing, as it has in the past, until there is a broad and regular pattern of abuse (IE: competitors springing surprise pages on their monthly opponent, in a manner so as to gain unfair advantage).

[spidey976]

This has been an interesting thread to read through. I might not have voted on the Championship match if I knew there was going to be a controversy of sorts surrounding it, either.

I think I'm guilty of doing the opposite of the Bovey/Fallen thing this month in my match against Jesse. I mentioned I would try to do sequentials this month back around the time that topics were selected, but just ran out of time/energy/motivation and had to do a more standard drawing in order not to be a no-show for our match. I think Ed raised the point, but not sure what you do if someone says they will do sequentials and doesn't do them? A drawing of any sort, IMO, beats a no-show in the final analysis.

I've certainly done a lot of sequential pages for my PUMMEL matches and would like to continue doing them in the future (if I can find the time and interest), and will continue to try to warn my opponent ahead of time of my intention to do so. Not sure a rule change is going to make much difference? This should probably continue to be a "gentleman's agreement" sort of thing, as it has in the past, until there is a broad and regular pattern of abuse (IE: competitors springing surprise pages on their monthly opponent, in a manner so as to gain unfair advantage).

See why does it have to be a "regular pattern of abuse" to make it worth ACTUALLY doing something.

How hard is it to simply make it a rule with an EASILY enforced consequence. Then we get rid of the guess work.

I am NOW laying bets on how many posts it takes for someone to say "lets leave it as a gentlemen's agreement". Nice Shinny green rep for the winner.

My personal bet is HIGHLIGHT FOR BET "No more than 6"

[Mase]

I really think the best course is this.

Sequentials are allowed. Both parties don't have to agree to it. If someone wants to do pages they just need to let their opponent know so they have the opportunity to match the effort. I don't think this is too much to ask for. And really, to this point that etiquette has been followed, and I think it should always be followed.
This. My personal feeling is that sequentials shouldn't be allowed, but this is at least fair.

[Teratophile]

How hard is it to simply make it a rule with an EASILY enforced consequence. Then we get rid of the guess work.

"No more than 6"

Rules that limit art, suck. Imagine if we had rules...we probably wouldn't have have seen that krikkit sequential or fallens piece(s) this month. I would have never did my first sequential if i had to declare it. Thats my fear of commitment though. lol

[Teratophile]

How hard is it to simply make it a rule with an EASILY enforced consequence. Then we get rid of the guess work.

"No more than 6"

Rules that limit art, suck. Imagine if we had rules...we probably wouldn't have have seen that krikkit sequential or fallens piece(s) this month. I would have never did my first sequential if i had to declare it. Thats my fear of commitment though. lol

[spidey976]

Rules that limit art, suck. Imagine if we had rules...we probably wouldn't have have seen that krikkit sequential or fallens piece(s) this month. I would have never did my first sequential if i had to declare it. Thats my fear of commitment though. lol

It doesn't limit it ... you just say ... I MAY do sequentials. Also, not to argue semantics ... BUT ... I didn't say it had to be a rule in FAVOUR of declaring sequentials. The rule could read like THIS

"Sequential art is ALWAYS a possibilty in PUMMEL so consider yourself WARNED. If you don't like it GO HOME AND CRY TO YOUR MOMMA! THIS IS P!U!M!M!E!L!"

No gentlemens ANYTHING ... savy???

[dfbovey]

Ray, if you were involved in a match though where someone said they were going to do sequentials, would it have been tempting for you to try to match it? Or say, hmmmm... That sounds interesting?

For me, in the HW division or even on this forum in general, there's so much talent that I feel you almost have to to stay afloat.

And if fallen had said he might be doing sequentials, you not only would have had his awesome entry, but I probably would have tried to find the time to put together something as well.

[spidey976]

Ray, if you were involved in a match though where someone said they were going to do sequentials, would it have been tempting for you to try to match it? Or say, hmmmm... That sounds interesting?

For me, in the HW division or even on this forum in general, there's so much talent that I feel you almost have to to stay afloat.

And if fallen had said he might be doing sequentials, you not only would have had his awesome entry, but I probably would have tried to find the time to put together something as well.

Oppps ... Sorry Dave I just reread my last post and realized how it could sound. Honestly, as things currently stand you got blind sided, but I don't think there was any malice involved.

Commissioners ... please solve this and make a hard fast decision ... see this is why I left .... getting sucked RIGHT back in ... lol

[NickRocks]

i say screw the gentlemans rule and let it be a mystery, but that's just me. it'll add an element of mindgames to the month

[Juggertha]

Oppps ... Sorry Dave I just reread my last post and realized how it could sound. Honestly, as things currently stand you got blind sided, but I don't think there was any malice involved.

Commissioners ... please solve this and make a hard fast decision ... see this is why I left .... getting sucked RIGHT back in ... lol

I thought you left because of personal reasons?

And to be clear, I'm not sure a decision NEEDS to be rushed on this. This is a discussion, and I think that's a fine thing.

If this discussion is bothering you, as it appears to be, why take part? I mean, you're not even in pummel. If this is frustrating you, then why bother with it? If you are in pummel though, I'll be glad to add ya back to the ranks.

That's not to say someone must be in pummel to voice an opinion here... but when ya write "threads like this DRIVE ME MAD", I have to wonder why you twist yourself up with it.

[spidey976]

See Ed you are totally right, but the personal reasons made me to tired and to on edge to be of any real use to you guys, and in the end I would tire myself out worrying about things that in the end would not be resolved and that are in the grand scheme unimportant. You are also right that I am not in PUMMEL and it may be years before I have time for I again; though I truly do miss it.
Ed what I will say is you don't think this needs to be rushed where I don't think it needs to be dragged out for what 8 or 9 pages where you travel around and around in circles. How many threads do we have like this where we talk for days and in the end nothing gets resolved. Just make a call as commissioners, that is why the guys here need you.

[Juggertha]

Yeah, but it's sometimes a matter of perspective. For me, this is only two pages.

I don't find this stressful at all, and I'm glad to hear people's opinions on it - ten if I disagree with them.

This would probably have been handled by the commissioners in private, except for JC not being online (and his rule is the one at hand), and I really wanted to take the discussion away from the art thread.

In the end, we'll vote on it as we always do. But now we'll do it knowing what the community thinks.

[JC Immortal]

Wow 8 pages of this...i was hoping that there was a solution at the end! and to be clear Ed its a rule that you and Dave made i just added the word Must to make it a bit more concrete to people cause if i was Dave id be pissed and id want the match thrown out...i mean its for the title with guys that been around awhile and know the that u outta mention that you are doing Sequentials...so like Dave mentioned 10 times now...to give your opponent a chance to match you if they choose to do so...sadly its a double edged sword that if they say they are doing pages and they end up doing a pin-up and you go all out even though u didnt want to that would also drive people crazy....so i think it should to be said that u plan on doing it ...and us as commishes can add that on the monthly lineup post to remind peeps as well.

so now we will take a commish vote on whether there will be any sort of penalty in the future or go with the gentlemens hand shake

[Juggertha]

if i was Dave id be pissed and id want the match thrown out...i mean its for the title with guys that been around awhile and know the that u outta mention that you are doing Sequentials...

I'm sure dave can elaborate/clarify, but I was under the impression that he wouldn't have had the time to do sequentials anyway. That he was simply too busy to do anything more than he did. And that it was the shock of being 'hit' with these sequentials more than the fact that he lost out on an opportunity to do them himself.

[JC Immortal]

And if fallen had said he might be doing sequentials, you not only would have had his awesome entry, but I probably would have tried to find the time to put together something as well.

He said it here Ed

[dfbovey]

To clarify. I was scrapped for time this month. I was relieved when I was told I'd just be facing a digital painting. I don't know if I would have been able to match the effort, my competetive spirit would have probably kicked in and I would have tried... I basically started my piece two days prior to deadline and worked my tail off just to have something for fallen. If I was told from the start I would be facing sequentials I probably would have budgeted my time differently. But who knows. The point is it was never a thought in my mind since I was under the impression I'd be facing a digital painting. Sequentials were never on my radar.

I don't want the match thrown out though. I've vented on how it sucks but in the end there wasn't clarity on a rule or what the results would be if a rule was broken. Some people including commissioners didn't know it was a rule. And that would be unfair to Fallenangel in my opinion.

The only reason I brought it up was to say, hey... This sucks and that it needed to be addressed for future matches, and to let Fallen know that I was ticked off about how this happened.

I apologize again for the contraversy. Not going to apologize for saying how I feel about the situation though. Only part I feel bad for is it tarnishes what was a highly anticipated match and that some people seem to think I'm saying all of this because of a loss. I've had two losses prior to this and I was genuinely happy for Alex and Matt. Has nothing to do with losing, but everything to do with the circumstances. If hadesillustrations or Plog said they were going to do a pinup only to submit 6 pages of art, I would have been ticked about it.

[Keith]

It's a fine line I guess, I always saw someone asking the other what type of piece they were doing as sort of a gentlemen's agreement, but I also think one has to be ready for anything when it comes to any sort of competition as open as this one. The thing I think you can take away from this though is, what might throw you off once probably won't happen again, since you'll be ready for it and know what to expect the next time you might face the same person.

Some see a win as a win no matter what they do to get it, sometimes you have to keep yourself sharp no matter what your opposition will throw your way.

[jessemunoz]

This whole topic makes me glad to be stepping away from Pummel. This is bs. If I was Fallen I would be super pissed.
Good luck with everything.

[dfbovey]

Really? Ok. See ya Jesse.

[hydekomiksink]

I like the idea of just keeping it a friendly communication (not limiting us as artists). It seems to be working pretty well that way. I know it's a rule, but never knew the penalty. Is there a way that someone who is in violation of this rule can just keep their rank without going up, and that the person who lost the match would either go down 1, or not at all? I really think PUMMEL has been working extremely well, and I think it's a big credit to the commissioners and the work they do. Sad to see bovey and Fallen out of PUMMEL for a while. But even when this wierd stuff happens I think we take our lumps (either taking a sneak attack loss, or our penalty for breaking a rule) and then we move on and compete in our next match.

[Popninja]

There shouldn't be any penalty, but it should be made clear that the person who does this isn't trustworthy. So, always be prepared for that person to break out sequentials...even if they say they're only doing a pinup.

"BEWARE! Fallenangel may bust out sequentials! Be prepared. Protect your blindside."

I'm half-joking. I just don't think someone should be penalized for going the extra mile and doing sequentials.

[dfbovey]

Yeah, that should be the take away from this thread.

Is it a rule or not and how is it enforced in the future if it is a rule.

If it's not an enforcable rule and only etiquette, eventually this will happen again unless we just say screw the etiquette that's been in place.

There just needs to be clarity on it so there isn't confusion and people know what the rules and consequences are.

Sorry of that makes people want to jump ship. Honestly though, Jesse, you've had one foot out the door for several months now. Don't try to blame me for your lack of interest in continuing. That is some bull shit.

[jessemunoz]

Bovey, I don't blame you for me leaving. I still have a ton of respect for you. Have a lost a bit? Sure. But there is no reason for me to argue my point. I feel really bad for Fallen, that is the only real reason for me to chime in. I think discussing something so silly as this for pages and pages is a waste of time... you could be drawing sequential pages.

[dfbovey]

I feel bad for Fallen to some degree, but I guess I'm surprised by anyone who doesn't see where I'm coming from on this. If you think I am trying to get this problem resolved just for my sake or because I lost, its not the case but you are entitled to your opinion. I said countless times I'm not looking to change the outcome.

If it tarnishes my image, but the end result ends up being that Pummel is better off for it in the long run, that's fine by me. A lot of people enjoy this activity and I hope it remains fun for everyone. Its not going to be perfect all the time. But when things like this happen and rules aren't clear, it needs to be discussed. I put a lot of time into creating this thing and I'm an admin here at penciljack, so of course I have a vested interest.

I do have other things to do with my time and your comments make me wonder why I even bother sometimes.

[Fallenangel]

Although i was the one who caused the original controversy, i wanted to distance myself as far as i could from it and from this debate.

However after reading all these 9 pages, i felt the need to say at least something about all this and to try and clarify some points as i see them, partially because of the sense that i've got from reading some of these posts: as if i'm some kind of a jerk who intentionally or not, tricked Dfbovey, only to win the championship.

First of all, like i said in the original Pummel thread, at first i didn't want to make any sequentials at all, and i "notified" Dfbovey, that i'm going to do something painted because i had a rule that i set to myself, to make my pummel entries penciled only, that was one of the main reasons why i re-joined Pummel, to force myself to produce at least one fully finished penciled picture per month.
The sequentials idea came to me later, when i wanted to develop a story that i had in mind for a quite a long time, frankly i didn't think about it as a pure pummel entry and didn't pay much attention to the rules/etiquette, i just wanted to draw something that i wanted to make for a long time, and if it fits my current Pummel topic - it's even better- i won't need to make another one especially for Pummel .

I'm again sorry that i didn't notify Dfbovey about the sequentials, but i was also very surprised when all this blew up a day after the original poll was posted, because he knew what i'm going to submit before i posted my final pictures in the HW thread, and we could have ended it right there by saying "hey, looks cool, but you didn't tell me about the sequentials, thus you broke a rule/unspoken rule, number X of Pummel....let's see how we can resolve it...".
I respect Dfbovey and i can understand why he is so pissed by this situation, however i think i have the right to be annoyed too, i worked very hard on what i consider one of my best art "projects" ever, and all this ended up with me supposedly swindling him, just to win the fight.

Anyways, i'm really sorry that i have to step out like this, i won't count that as a win in my stats or anything like that... i just don't feel right to do so, me and Dfbovey, would have to make a re-mach sometimes to clarify who is the HW champ.




About it being a rule or not:
Imo there should be a clear rule about this: "one must declare if he/she is going to do sequentials till the 5th of each month",
1. If one declared and failed to produce sequentials = that is his problem because he"ll probably loose to an opponent who worked hard to make something special to beat the "sequentials".
2. If someone didn't notified his opponent about doing sequentials but produced few comic pages = he/she would not advance to the next rank if he/she wins the fight.

The commissioners should decide and vote on what ever their decision might be, so we could all move on.


These are my 2 cents and my thoughts......

Cheers.

[dfbovey]

At this point, I'm stepping out of the conversation.

Its not even about the match in question at this point. The conversation needs to be about solving it so that its not an issue in future matches.

All the comments should really be geared towards that.

[dfbovey]

Fallen, I know this wasn't a purposeful thing you did with any kind of malicious intent. And I definitely didn't bring this up to try to villainize you, I just wanted to bring it up to let you know it was upsetting. I did mention it in the challenge thread before the poll ever went up. But I didn't make too much of a thing over it, because I was in the mode of just getting my entry done at that time.

When I did mention it, I kinda thought you blew it off. And I didn't want to be the guy to tell you that this shouldn't have happened (especially with the obvious effort you put into it). That's why I said I don't like being put in this position, as a person who's competing and also a person who's made a lot of the rules. I don't feel comfortable when there are issues with matches I'm involved in, because of the way it can possibly look when there are issues.

I do hate that this match was supposed to be an epic affair and that this is the end result. It wasn't my intention. Like I said, you should be very proud of the quality and effort you put in, and that's why I didn't want any action taken, because I wouldn't feel right about it. It's obvious by the voting and all of this bs asside that you are very worthy of the win.

I just don't want to see something like this happen again.

This all happened very quickly and in the end I should have pmed you and the commissioners about it rather than vocalizing it publicly. And for that I definitely apologize.

In the end, just based on the work entered, you easily won and you should be happy about it. It's really good stuff. No doubt.

[Juggertha]

I think us commissioners have voted a decision.

We'll post it up when finalized.

[CrazyDiamond]

Wow that's a lot of talking.

Can I ask a question?

What does it really matter if you lose or win in this thing anyway? I mean I just realised that it's all just based on opinions. I've seen pieces that were clearly drawn better that have lost due to voters preferences in style. So why get so serious about it?

[blamito]

9 times out of 10, sequentials will win against a pinup. It mostly has to do with how much effort is percieved to be put into a submission and sequentials are hard work.

[Hangman]

people need to chill a bit. obviously dave and fallen are super cool ppl and we are all PJ family here. No one meant to harm the other in any way. its just miscommunication between dave and fallen and the way the sequential ettiquette/rule has been applied. Lets find a way to fix this because there's no need to tarnish something as cool as pummel and this great PJ community.

[Juggertha]

9 times out of 10, sequentials will win against a pinup. It mostly has to do with how much effort is percieved to be put into a submission and sequentials are hard work.

Really? I've seen plenty of sequentials lose. One did against a pin-up this month.

[dfbovey]

Yeah, sequentials are beaten all the time. I beat sequentials with a pin up two months ago. But I knew I was going against sequentials and there was more effort and time spent on my pin up that month compared to this one.

A pin up beating sequentials depends on a lot of factors. I do think that the higher you get in the rankings the more difficult it would be for a pin up to beat 5-6 pages, including a cover and 2 page spread. I don't think I've seen too many pin ups submitted to Pummel that would have beaten Fallen's effort this month. That's a credit to him and his determination for sure when you put the contraversy aside.That part of it is very commendable.

[blamito]

I don't know, it used to seem like doing sequentials meant an automatic win. I guess it's changed a little. I still say better than half, but it doesn't really matter.

[davechisholm]

Yeah, sequentials are beaten all the time. I beat sequentials with a pin up two months ago. But I knew I was going against sequentials and there was more effort and time spent on my pin up that month compared to this one.
.

shouldn't you be giving it your all every time? your work is always great for sure, but to say that you would have done more work had you known your opponent was doing x or y...isn't that still your fault for not going balls-out? this still sort of reeks of sour grapes to me. my two cents.

[Teratophile]

David, sometimes saying less is best. lol If i were you i would have said congrats to my opponent and moved on. Unless you were Manji...

Oh and yeah, i remember you saying once you put the same amount of effort into a drawing regardless of what your opponent is doing.

[dfbovey]

I do give it my all Dave within the parameters of what I thought the rules were. I think you can probably tell by what I put forth on a consistent basis every month, that there's a lot of effort on my part. Sequential pages to me, are extra effort though and not something I have the time for most of the time.

Not everyone views Pummel as an area to stretch their storytelling wings either. That wasn't the original intent of creating it but there's been a shift that direction for some. I'm not opposed to that shift but I'd rather see apples to apples matches as much as possible.

Again, just needs to be clarity in the rules.

[dfbovey]

I don't really care what you think I should or shouldn't say, Ray.

Bottom line is something was listed in the rules and I pointed it out. If people have a problem with it, so be it.

Hopefully the problem is fixed moving forward. Is that so friggin bad?

[Popninja]

Let's nip this in the bud right now.

Bottom line, this is not a courtesy; it's an actual rule. Now, we either follow the rules, not bending them for anybody or, really, what is the point of rules?

I had no idea this was an actual written rule until just a short time ago(like 15 minutes or so). There's no reason to even bat this back and forth. A rule was broken. Period.

I think the match should be thrown out.

[Teratophile]

I don't really care what you think I should or shouldn't say, Ray.

Hey, hey...You should care.

[dfbovey]

Pop, I would agree with you if there was clarity that it was an actual rule.

Its listed as a rule, but people seemed oblivious to it. People flaming me over it seem oblivious. Fallenangel was oblivious. Even you said you didn't reaize this. And this Includes those who would enforce it too.

Can't enforce a rule if there's no clarity. I would love for this to have been cut and dry, but its not. If it was a clear rule then I have to trust that fallen would have followed it and told me about the sequentials or just done a pinup like he origially said he was going to do.

I don't want the match thrown out, not even something I was asking for. I just want this fixed so it doesn't happen again. That's the bottom line for me.

[dfbovey]

Ray, would you say that I've been unfair or that my points here aren't valid?

If not, then why shouldn't I have said anything?

And do you really want to start questioning my effort? How many people here can say they haven't noshowed, can you? How many people can say they haven't half assed any entry that they've put forward here... Can you?

I"ve won the matches I've won because I put forth a consistent high level of effort. I always aim to do a professional quality piece and its why I have the winning percentage that I do.

I think its actually pretty funny that I'd have to come into this thread and defend my effort level.

[davechisholm]

I do give it my all Dave within the parameters of what I thought the rules were.

see, but you didn't give it your all. you readily admit that if you had known that fallenangel was going to do seq's, you'd have upped your game--meaning there was gas left in the tank for you at the end of the day or whatever. forget the rules--the lesson here for you is to give it your for-real ALL every time and then you'll win every time without having to resort to this rules nonsense.

yes, i understand that you're making this about RULES and that you feel blindsided or maybe even that you WERE blindsided, but it seems SO absurd to me. if losing ever is an actual POSSIBILITY (which it obviously was--it's super arrogant of you to assume that you'd have won if FA had done a single image, but whatever) and you don't give it 100%--like ACTUAL 100%--then you LOST and that's that.

if you want, just make a new rule--no seq's at all. if you really think that people putting in EXTRA work on their pieces puts them at an unfair advantage, then so be it.

the fact that this "gentleman's" rule exists in the first place seems really really arbitrary to me.
people bring original art to compete against other original art. people vote for the one they like the most. you lost.

don't get me wrong, bovey. i love your work month in and month out. you are awesome. but this is getting RIDICULOUS.

[Popninja]

But the thing of it is that, there IS a rule. The rule was made in the past, obviously for reasons that someone felt it needed to be made. The rule is there. It's not about making NEW rules. It's about acknowledging the fact that the rule is in existence, right now. This isn't whining about losing. This isn't trying to save David from having to add a "3" to his loss record. This is about the same thing any broken rule is about. Rules are in place for a reason, and like I said, if we start to ignore them, then there's no point in having any of them. Just let everyone do what they want; swipe, post a day late, have their in-laws sign up on PJ so they can pad their vote count. Just let it be like the old West. Free for all. Ye-HAW!

And again, why the non-PUMMEL opinions?

[dfbovey]

I think I've already stated my opinion on sequentials in Pummel. It was never meant to be a let's see who can do the most pages contest. And lets face it, people DO try to use it as an equalizer. Sequential art was never originally even allowed in Pummel and was added in later with stipulations. They have always been considered extra and above and beyond. That's why there has always been an etiquette and also why it seemingly eventually became a rule.

There is nothing ridiculous about anything I've said. Read rule 17. That's what the discussion is about. It wasn't just a gentleman's rule. It was in the official rules list. Even if it wasn't, I'd still be ticked because of the way things have traditionally happened here regarding sequentials.

To be honest, I'm annoyed with people chiming in not really knowing what they are talking about. Especially those who don't participate and have no knowledge or stake in the rules.

And please dude, show me where I said anything about knowing I'd beat Fallenangel if it had been a single image. The only thing I ever said is that it would be a much more even playing field and probably a much closer match if it was one image against one image. You're talking out of your ass at this point in an attempt to push my buttons, either that or you are ill informed.

There were obviously people saying that they were voting on sheer effort. And I've had people PM me saying the same thing. And there is no other way to put it. I WAS indeed blindsided. I was told flat out that he was doing a single digital piece. And then did 6 pages worth of work. How is that not being blind sided? What else would you call it?

If you want to instigate, Dave. Fine... but try to be accurate in the process.

Thanks.

[dfbovey]

Again, read this first post...

http://www.penciljack.com/forum/showthread.php?93931-P.U.M.M.E.L.-RULES-and-REGULATIONS

General rule #17. That is the discussion. It was an etiquette that existed in Pummel since sequentials started being allowed and was made into a rule by one of the commissioners (not me).

[Juggertha]

Ok, to be clear about that RULE.

There have been a few attempts at writing that "rule".


Sequentials are allowed and encouraged. But you must inform your opponent that you will be doing them in your match so they have an opportunity to match efforts


Good manners dictates that if you plan to do panels/sequential pages for a challenge, you notify your opponent asap


You must inform your opponent if you plan to do sequentials.

The severity seems to bend a bit with those writings. And here's the thing... this is the first time I've ever encountered a major issue with this rule. It may not be the first time it's been broken, but it's the first time I've seen a blow up over it.

So, like I've written before on this thread - some rules are very clear in their "punishment".

Show up late = NO Show
Swipe/trace a piece = Disqualification.


But then we have this one...


Good natured smack talk is allowed (and encouraged), but trolling is not.

And most everyone here can remember a recent incident where a competitor was banned over it. So the rule was amended to:


Good natured smack talk is allowed (and encouraged), but trolling is not. Keep the focus on the art and not the artist. Abusive/profane language is not welcome.


Now, with that one, we proceeded with warnings.. many of them, and then a final ban.


Some rules are easily strict, others often involve warnings from us commissioners and/or the community.

The commissioners have voted that this will not be a hard set rule. We're still deciding on whether to keep it at all in the rules list or not, but seeing as you are all gentlemen and gentleladies, you're welcome to continue using it as a 'fair warning' to each other.

We apologize to the community, and Dave and Fallen in particular, for not being clearer on this. We ask that you bear with us, and help us, in trying to muddle through rules issues like this.




The decision has been made, so from this point on in the discussion, you are simply welcome to call me names.

[dfbovey]

Cool, thanks commissioners for working to get it cleared up. It's important that no matter what way you decided, that's it's done with clarity and without any doubts moving forward.

[InkDrop]

It's a monthly art contest on a comic forum with no prize. One should be encouraged to bring the ruckus. Just do what I do...start every month saying...."I may do sequential's". I fall in line with others that you shouldn't have to say anything.

This is a comic art forum. Sequential Art should be the rule, not the exception.

[dfbovey]

I agree Ink, in part. Sequentials should be encouraged. That's why sequential art was eventually allowed with the stipulation that you tell someone what you're doing. But... While sequentials are encouraged, they aren't the norm. That's just the way it is. Even in a comicbook art forum. From a competition stand point, I just have a problem with asking people to expect something that isn't even a 5% trend as far as how many matches end up having sequential entries. I think that erasing this will basically lead to more people being miffed about being blind sided by sequential art.

I think that given time constraints and other factors, it should be a requirement to disclose it. In the heavyweight division, we have a mix of different kinds of people. Young, old, pro, semi-pro, people who work professionally in some other field, people who are students, people with kids, social lives and families. In general, people with varied allotments of time in a given month to work on an extra activity like this. I think it's only fair to have someone say, from the start, hey, I'm going to bombard you with a cover and 5 pages of sequential art. So that you can be aware of it, brace for it and or match it if you have the time or can shuffle things around so that you can make it a competitive and even match. That's all.

I can honestly say that I probably will only compete in streetfights from this point forward if this is the way things will be shifting. Because I do have a lot going on and I wouldn't be able to meet the requirements of being ready at anytime to drop 6 pages worth of work. Just not possible for me, there will be months where I might be able to swing it but it's definitely not the norm. And when I compete I would want to put forth the same kind of effort that everyone else would be expected to. If I can't, then there's no reason to put up a pinup against sequential entries if that's what is going to be expected. I just don't see the point in those kinds of match ups. If I'm working on sequential art I'd rather be producing something for publication rather than just some random stuff anyway. That's just the way my brain is geared.

Pummel has been a great place to sharpen the blades for me against great competition, but if the competition is going to possibly become something that starts affecting other aspects of my life in order to meet what's expected... it's time for me to bow out.

[Lingling]

I don't mind sequentials, I just hate going up against people who are really good at colours...

[Ncyte77Etern]

Pummel has been a great place to sharpen the blades for me against great competition, but if the competition is going to possibly become something that starts affecting other aspects of my life in order to meet what's expected... it's time for me to bow out.

I'll make sure you stick around.

[Electronick]

I've been reading through this, so I'll throw in my two cents. In my opinion, Pummel isn't about a win / loss record. Granted, that record does play a part in it, and some people especially enjoy the competition aspect. But, I must say, the real value in Pummel is that it can push you to do your best. If you've done your best work possible for a match, and your opponent can say the same, then it doesn't matter who wins or loses, or what kind of work was produced. You both made awesome artwork and hopefully learned something in the process. At the end of the day, that's the only real benefit to be gained from this contest.

I can understand the need for rules to keep things from running amok, but honestly, as long as someone is here to improve on their own skills, they shouldn't need to worry about what their opponent is going to do. If they are trying to outdo themselves every month, it doesn't matter what their opponent shows up with, because they've already benefited from the experience. Win / loss record is just a vanity.

[dfbovey]

I'll make sure you stick around.

I'll be around for the occasional street fight and to fulfill my obligation in the Underground streetfight tournament. But not in the monthly ranked matches.

[Ncyte77Etern]

I'll be around for the occasional street fight and to fulfill my obligation in the Underground streetfight tournament. But not in the monthly ranked matches.

I believe that. Just need a break I guess. Like I said though...I'll make sure you stick around.

[dfbovey]

I've been reading through this, so I'll throw in my two cents. In my opinion, Pummel isn't about a win / loss record. Granted, that record does play a part in it, and some people especially enjoy the competition aspect. But, I must say, the real value in Pummel is that it can push you to do your best. If you've done your best work possible for a match, and your opponent can say the same, then it doesn't matter who wins or loses, or what kind of work was produced. You both made awesome artwork and hopefully learned something in the process. At the end of the day, that's the only real benefit to be gained from this contest.

I can understand the need for rules to keep things from running amok, but honestly, as long as someone is here to improve on their own skills, they shouldn't need to worry about what their opponent is going to do. If they are trying to outdo themselves every month, it doesn't matter what their opponent shows up with, because they've already benefited from the experience. Win / loss record is just a vanity.

I can understand and respect that point of view Nick. That is and was the goal for me from the start, but... the drive to get better for me comes from the competition. My skills became better because of my competitive drive and not wanting to lose to guys like Adultbraces, HadesIllustrations, g0b1in, Plog, Fallenangel and so many more I could list. Anyone I've faced really. I'm the same way when I play basketball or even monopoly. I play by the rules and I play to win.

In the end, Pummel is just like any other contest, sport or game. If you're going to play it, the goal should be to win :)

[dfbovey]

I believe that. Just need a break I guess. Like I said though...I'll make sure you stick around.

Yeah, I've been at this for a bit. Between creating PUMMEL and participating in it I'm pretty satisfied with everything it's done for me and for the community here. I was planning to step away from it before any of this stuff happened but I think this whole thing has kinda been a nudge that I needed to kind of get things in order that I want to do outside of the forum.

Pummel is evolving and in good hands.

If anyone wants a streetfight, just send me a PM and if I have the time for it, I'll to oblige. Probably won't be until the new year though.

[InkDrop]

I dunno... this past summer I finally realized it's about me and my progression. F what the other person is doing. They wanna do sequentials fine, I'm sure I can out pin-up their sequential. The more I focus on my own business and the less I care about their's the better I do. When I win awesomesauce, if I lose, whateva the voters musta been blind :D

And DF you said it... 5% or less actually play in the Sequential Playground, it's not gonna become the trend. Hell, it seems lately a bunch of people don't even start until a few day's before deadline.

Relax, breath and get ready for next month.

[davechisholm]

bovey, i'm sorry if it seems like i'm pushing your buttons or trolling. i was part of pummel close to its beginning but stopped because school takes up too much time. i like to keep up on what's going on here, but i don't post often--this whole exchange has just really irked me. the comment asserting that you thought you'd win in the event of a single-image bout was out of line. sorry, man.

here's the thing: i acknowledge that a rule is a rule, but i don't feel like this particular rule can compare with the swiping and deadline rules. those are rules with obvious justification. i'm just saying that this particular rule is silly. should you have to tell people when you're going to color a piece? how about if you're doing a full background? multiple figures? what makes sequential pages an exception? part of the joy of this competition is seeing people surprise the competition with something completely epic and amazing--no warning!

and why get mad if people vote based on effort? shouldn't that make you want to put more effort into your piece? you said somewhere (not sure if it was this or the voting thread) that you have seen several pin-ups beat sequential pages. hell, hades beat me in a street fight forever ago--the spiderman one--where i did a couple of pages and he did a pin-up. and if there's any dude who does pin-ups that can beat seq's, it's you!

one more thing: if non-pummelers contributing to conversations is bad, then block us all from this part of the forum. that's your prerogative. i'd say that it would be a mistake, though--i know i'd be bummed if i couldn't contribute honestly to these conversations. it seems like the competitions would get stale without input from the riff-raff.

[dfbovey]

Ink... I'm relaxed, man. And I'm ready for next month, it just won't have anything to do with Pummel :)

I need to get my mythology art book done. That'll be my primary focus for the coming months and probably into next year. That's what I was planning to leave for before this. I've been putting it off too long. And I think I'm at the point where I just need to dive into it full fledged with out any distractions and all of my attention and effort.

I'm fine with everything that's happened here but if it's going to be the wild wild west with no structure it's just not for me. I know how things work. I also know that I tend to motivate people to do their best when they face me. And if that's going to consist of sequentialing me to death I don't really think that would be all that fun unless I also have time to also do sequentials. And I don't. Just boils down to that really.

[dfbovey]

Dave, I don't have a problem with people from outside of Pummel participating in coversations. In fact I have always wanted this to be a welcoming place. I would love to have MORE participation and more artists involved. I think it's a great activity.

My problem with you in this thread is that there was an obvious controversy and you didn't seem to know what you were talking about and started making blind accusations towards me. I didn't appreciate it, that's all.

For example... for the 2nd time I will ask you...where did I say I'd win the match one on one with a single image? I want you to link it, quote me or something, because I never said it. I said that the match would be more even with my pin up against his double page spread. That my image would have been more competitive with an even playing field. Never once did I say I would have won. I can't be out of bounds on something that I never said to begin with, Dave. I don't even know where you're getting this from.

I'm not mad at effort, either. It's one of the reasons why I said that the match stands. I don't want to be the guy who tells Fallenangel that he just lost after he did all that work. That's not who I am. I was mad that there was confusion about a rule. I'm mad that I was told by my competitor that he'd be doing a painted pinup and that when I came in here to post my art on deadline day I saw that he had done 6 pages of art. Which, in my mind was out of bounds and against a written rule for this contest. I have no problems with losing. I've lost twice before this, man. And you can ask Plog and Hadesillustrations how I responded to those losses. And there wouldn't have been an issue this time around if simple rules and protocols were followed. I really don't know what's so hard to understand about that.

I mean, if you go to play a pick up game of basketball and some dude starts beating you because he says that 3 point shots are now worth 10 half way through the game, and you've been taking 2 point shots the whole time... are you not going to open your mouth and say something about how the game is usually played? And how it's always been played?

I mean... god damn, dude. I just don't get the mentality.

[dfbovey]

Dave, is this the post you're talking about?

http://www.penciljack.com/forum/showthread.php?112447-PRM-Heavyweight-Championship-Dfbovey%281%29-vs-Fallen-Angel%282%29-Epic-Sword-Fight&p=1257529&viewfull=1#post1257529

If so, where exactly did I say I would have won?

I need some clarification on this. Because if anyone thinks I said this, it's not true. And if there's anything in there that could even be taken that way, I don't see it. I don't need people walking around on dry soil thinking I say the type of things that you claim I said.

[davechisholm]

i apologized for that accusation--i just worded it really really poorly! "the comment asserting that you thought you'd win in the event of a single-image bout was out of line. sorry, man. " that was me apologizing! i'm sorry! i worded it so so so so so so poorly. dang!
i'm really sorry for my poor wording.

[dfbovey]

i apologized for that accusation--i just worded it really really poorly! "the comment asserting that you thought you'd win in the event of a single-image bout was out of line. sorry, man. " that was me apologizing! i'm sorry! i worded it so so so so so so poorly. dang!
i'm really sorry for my poor wording.

Ah, lol. All cool then :)

[davechisholm]

Ah, lol. All cool then :)

wow i really shit the bed when i decided how to word that sentence. man, sorry again.

[dfbovey]

wow i really shit the bed when i decided how to word that sentence. man, sorry again.

No worries on that front dude. I'm an even headed kind of guy for the most part and if there's a misunderstanding or argument, I like to hash things out. Really, I just wanted to make sure I didn't say anything that could even be perceived as what you originally said. Because, that's just not me. Never been me, and never will be me. And if I did say something like that or that could even be in the same realm of saying I would have won, I'd want to apologize for it immediately. I'm not a boastful or arrogant person. lol

[Teratophile]

Ray, would you say that I've been unfair or that my points here aren't valid?

If not, then why shouldn't I have said anything?

And do you really want to start questioning my effort? How many people here can say they haven't noshowed, can you? How many people can say they haven't half assed any entry that they've put forward here... Can you?

I"ve won the matches I've won because I put forth a consistent high level of effort. I always aim to do a professional quality piece and its why I have the winning percentage that I do.

I think its actually pretty funny that I'd have to come into this thread and defend my effort level.


To clarify my intentions, I said "saying less is the best" because the more you say, the saltier you look. This could have been handled this very quietly.

As for your Points being valid, Of course they are. I get where you are coming from. If it happened to me, I would clench my butthole and whine to someone close. However, I don't totally agree. I think there should be rules...but any rule that might stop someone from doing a sequential on a forum that is essentially about comics is silly.

Im coming from personal experience...It has been closer to the deadline and i've decided to do a sequential. With a hardset rule, it would have been out of the question. It didn't work out for me. I ended up doing some rushed shitty predator/rancor pages against Plog, But i was happy i attempted them.

I'm not attacking your efforts. I just pointed out something you said awhile ago about your efforts being consistent despite what your opponent is doing, After you said today that you would try to match their efforts in response to what they were doing.

I'm only commenting on this at all because I care. I want as much art produced as possible.

[dfbovey]

Ray, I suppose I'm the type of person that believes that anything worth saying shouldn't be said behind someone's back. I might get heat for it but I'll never hide my words behind a veil of friends or keep something bottled up. It might be something that explodes but I've never had an experience where after I've spoken my mind, resolutions don't happen. I actually thought about it in this case because I didn't want to be perceived as a dick and I really didn't want to take away from the effort. But, I'm not a passive person. At all. And I never will be. And in the end this is all getting ironed out.

I guess we just disagree on the fact that there really isn't a rule on this forum, that would keep someone from doing sequential art. I just don't see how having to say "I might do sequentials for this match" would be a rule against sequential art being posted for Pummel. If you think that there's even a fraction of a chance you would, simply saying it would have covered the bases. I think it would actually have more people doing sequentials that way. You'd see more sequentials vs. sequentials if people had to announce it. And in the end I think apples to apples match ups are better for Pummel. I know we don't agree there so I'll let it rest.

But, from my personal experience... If more people had said that to me over my two years participating, I would have probably bit the bullet and done it, especially in championship matches. But, the only time anyone ever said they'd be doing sequentials was fallenangel in the Heman match two months ago. I was getting married that month. No time for sequentials. I was still able to win with a pin up but I do think pin ups vs. sequentials in the heavyweight division, more times than not a pin up won't be enough.

[dfbovey]

I'm typing too much. I think I've said all that I needed to say here at this point and I'm just repeating myself. So, with that, good job commissioners for moving forward to get this issue ironed out.

Fallen, my apologies for not handling this differently. We'll square away the competitive side to this some other time.

Everyone else, see you in the back alleys for some streetfights from time to time. And I'll be taking on the winner of the Underground tournament once that's done as well.

[Juggertha]

Yeah, I'm not one that insists on things being handled in secret, but in the future, if people are curious about a rule, feel free to pm a commissioner.

I think this discussion is great, I'm the one who made this thread. But I'd also like it if the commissioners were given a chance to come down with a ruling before all hell breaks loose. ;)

Both Bovey and Fallen did a great job this month... but Fallen gets the win. We're moving on. Both competitors said they needed to take a break from pummel BEFORE this "blew up", so there's no need for anyone speculating anything as to their motives.


Now, get drawing, and be sure to show up! Otherwise, you'll get the chicken!

[dfbovey]

One last thing, I promise...

I definitely support the idea of a separate sequential division.

If there are enough people to support it I think it would solve a big chunk of the issues we are experiencing here. That way, it cuts out all the bullshit of having Pin ups going against sequential pages. Which, guys... it really is ridiculous.

But that's a total shift in the discussion. I've seen spatterings of talks on the subject but I haven't seen many people try to present full fledged ideas on it.

If there are 5-6 people who would make up the division to start it off I don't think it would be a bad idea. Might be worth investigating.

[Juggertha]

Let's see how many take up the sequential mania challenge. That might be telling of interest.

[Popninja]

one more thing: if non-pummelers contributing to conversations is bad, then block us all from this part of the forum. that's your prerogative. i'd say that it would be a mistake, though--i know i'd be bummed if i couldn't contribute honestly to these conversations. it seems like the competitions would get stale without input from the riff-raff.

Why don't you actually VOTE on the matches then. If you're so gung-ho to be part of the discussions, why not friggin' vote?! That's the only thing that bugs me about you guys. You're around for the controversy, but you can't vote?

And I'm not talking voting on a couple of matches here and there, either.

[davechisholm]

Why don't you actually VOTE on the matches then. If you're so gung-ho to be part of the discussions, why not friggin' vote?! That's the only thing that bugs me about you guys. You're around for the controversy, but you can't vote?

And I'm not talking voting on a couple of matches here and there, either.

i'm glad you're keeping track of my voting record!

[Juggertha]

Whether it's directed at you or not, it's a valid point.

It seems that when pummel gets a bit of verbal action going on over something, we get a lot of "visitors". Some seem interested in pummel, others just like to watch a show - and a few others just like to fan the flames.

If you are interested in pummel, feel free to ...

comment on art
vote in the polls
weigh in
battle it out

and yes, comment on controversies.

But I suggest that the first ones on the list are more important.

[Pep]

Why don't the caller call pinup only or leave it open? Problem solved. I think it's better to leave it open to each opponent as long as they stick to the subject. Sequentials shouldn't be a problem. It feels wrong to 'undo' uncalled sequential challenges. Isn't the point to get people off their asses to actually draw something? How is coming down on people going all out giving a subject all they've got productive? Granted it's harder to compare pinups to sequentials. I say call it and if you don't it's wide open to sequentials.

[spidey976]

So let me get this straight. In all this thread has accomplished the following

A) We have some pretty bruised feelings
B) We are losing one of the GREATEST artists to ever step into the PUMMEL ring, and another is upset as well and isn't competeing anymore
C) The commissioners are making a call that they could have made without ALL of this.

Way to go team.

This thread needs to end

[sirandal]

So let me get this straight. In all this thread has accomplished the following

A) We have some pretty bruised feelings
B) We are losing one of the GREATEST artists to ever step into the PUMMEL ring, and another is upset as well and isn't competeing anymore
C) The commissioners are making a call that they could have made without ALL of this.

Way to go team.

This thread needs to end

I dont underatand where point B is coming from...everyone who isnt going to participate for the near future wasnt going to participate regardless. As my daughter's "Big Dog, Little Dog" book says at the end, "Why make big problems out of little problems?"

[Juggertha]

So let me get this straight. In all this thread has accomplished the following

A) We have some pretty bruised feelings
B) We are losing one of the GREATEST artists to ever step into the PUMMEL ring, and another is upset as well and isn't competeing anymore
C) The commissioners are making a call that they could have made without ALL of this.

Way to go team.

This thread needs to end

A) Bruised feelings were why this thread was started.
B) No one is quitting pummel because of this thread. Anyone who is taking a break, said they were taking a break before this blew up.
C) True. But I don't view civil discussion as a bad thing.

[spidey976]

Dave has stated that he is "retiring" from PUMMEL and I don't think that was going to be what he was going to do prior to this whole blow out. I could be wrong, but I thought he was going to take a brake.

Ed I also don't mean to sound like a jerk, but bring this out even more into the public had how many guys take sides? This didn't need to happen.

[dfbovey]

It's my fault it's in public. Not the commissioners. They definitely can't take the blame for that. My responsibility 100%.

And while I am retired from ranked matches, I will be around for the very occasional street fight and underground streetfight tournaments. In that capacity I won't be submitting a single pinup against 5-6 pages of art. Details of those matches can be negotiated and more of an even playing field. That's my choice. Not anyone's fault. Just not interested in that kind of lopsided competition.

[NickRocks]

a bit of OT from OPs point, but still a ? regarding rules...

what is the official rule regarding limiting sequentials if you are the higher rank?

for example, my topic this month is bioshock. but when wornouthoodie said the topic, he said "pin-up, no sequentials" now, IIRC, you can't restrict someone from doing it, right? or am i wrong now

[sirandal]

You are not wrong. You should just take it to mean he isnt going to do seq pages. You are free to do as you like.

[Juggertha]

Sirandal is right. You cannot stop someone else from doing pages for a monthly.