The Todd McFarlane debate... amazing legend... or "one note" creator??? [Archive]

turnbolt

07-31-2010, 01:34 PM

This is tough because for my generation this will bring up alot of strong feelings...

Todd McFarlane.

Is he REALLY that AMAZING? I used to think so. Back when he first drew Spiderman and changed him forever I was as infatuated as anyone! When he created Spawn... I saw the similarities to Spiderman in the look of the character... but felt like that was a wink to his past career. I was also caught up in the exciting historical significance of the creation of Image and starry eyed at the amazing talent pool they took with them.

Now he's brought us Haunt... <sigh>... and I'm starting to wonder if he could ever design a hero that DOESN'T look like Spidey... I mean maybe he should just go back and draw Spiderman!

While I think the story of Haunt sounds cool... I don't find Todd's work interesting anymore and wonder who else might see this too... or who thinks I am a fool.

Share your thoughts in this thread... let's try to keep it clean. I just want intelligent arguments.

Here's a picture for reference... Hey, Todd! Try and do something DIFFERENT why don't you?

http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/7139/mcfarlaneonenote.jpg

cbikle

07-31-2010, 01:58 PM

turnbolt

07-31-2010, 02:01 PM

Well, he's doing Haunt with Rob Kirkman so plenty of talent there! While he may own the Eclipse characters... he didn't design them. That's my problem. His designs are all the same. It's kind of weak.

basil81

07-31-2010, 02:45 PM

I don't know much about The Haunt character, but I certainly hope that's not what I think it is spewing out of his fingers...

cbikle

07-31-2010, 02:54 PM

I don't know much about The Haunt character, but I certainly hope that's not what I think it is spewing out of his fingers...

No it's not webbing, it's semen.

Haunt shoots "ghost-Semen" from his fingers.

turnbolt

07-31-2010, 04:45 PM

No it's not webbing, it's semen.

Haunt shoots "ghost-Semen" from his fingers.

Yup! Cbikle's right... it's semen. See? You were all worried it was webbing! PSSSH!

dfbovey

07-31-2010, 05:06 PM

I think McFarlane was one of the iconic artists for Spiderman. He had his technical flaws, but he kinda redefined how the character could be drawn and brought excitement to that book.

Seeing him do creator owned stuff to me is like comparing Michael Jordan when he was with the Bulls winning championships, to the Michael Jordan who closed out his career playing for the Washington Wizards. One was great, one was just ordinary... or even forgettable at times.

turnbolt

07-31-2010, 09:15 PM

NickRocks

07-31-2010, 09:21 PM

McF IS LEGEND TORMENT WAS THE TRUTH!!! I remember being like 8 years old and amazed that spiderman was actually getting his costume ripped!! I actually knew the lizard from torment first, so when i saw normal lizard i was like wtf why is he talking haha.

Spawn was that shit too, it's a shame that series turned into a mess =[

Bottom line, he reminds me of Joe Mad. You wouldn't hold either one up as an example of technically perfect illustrators but they bring that excitement and verve to comics that the new guy lack.

scmarooney

07-31-2010, 11:54 PM

Although I'm not really a fan of his art, I get why other people are.

In a way, McFarlane reminds me of John Byrne; both were wildly successful in their day and were/are too easily distracted with pissing matches with others in the industry.

Haunt may be Todd's attempt to re-energize himself and/or generate quick cash for his company.

In addition to his toy company, the guy still owns the rights to all the old Eclipse characters (except maybe not Miracleman) and I don't believe he's done anything with those properties yet.

McFarlane needs to hook up with a good writer (like he's done in the past) who will provide new blood and/or perspective.

I agree with the Byrne comparison, at least to some extent. Both took on iconic, well-established characters and revamped them, making them wildly popular again (Mcf-Spidey, Byrne-Superman, FF). But I think Mcfarlane ultimately did more for the industry by striking out on his own and creating a new company in Image Comics and allowing the creators of a property to take home more of the profits. It's true that Spawn started off on fire and has sort of devolved into a mess, and I know next to nothing about Haunt, and am not all that interested. I do agree that he has tended to stay fairly close to the things that "made" his name, though, and it would be interesting to see him take on something really different.

kae_ae

08-01-2010, 12:41 AM

Lame spiderman retread, yech. I admire him more for his entrepeneurial mojo tho. Wrong turn and he'd have been a pat lee.

Popninja

08-01-2010, 09:21 AM

McFarlane coined the term "growing roses" as the reason for comics being late, while saying that comics being done on time were "shit out monthly."

I don't think the word "legend" can be used to describe McFarlane the comic artist. However, hee's been involved in several things that I would term legendary.

NickRocks

08-01-2010, 10:31 AM

Dri

08-01-2010, 11:02 AM

Being a Legend is not a matter of opinion. You have to look at the facts.

When he leaves comics/retires/dies, he will still be one of the most defining and influential artists of his time, for many, myself included, he is the definitive spider-man artist. He was one of the founders of Image comics. There's no question he is a comic book legend

Quoted for truth. Although I don't like Spawn and the cover of Haunt posted in this thread, there's no denying his influence and accomplishments in an industry full of talent.

His creative output was always going to be affected when he was running the company. He has tailor made his work in an almost formulaic way. The flowing capes, menacing masks and over detail are his niche. Why would he depart from something that makes him commercially successful? For a long time I've regard him as being a businessman before being an artist.

Popninja

08-01-2010, 11:43 AM

Being a Legend is not a matter of opinion. You have to look at the facts.

When he leaves comics/retires/dies, he will still be one of the most defining and influential artists of his time, for many, myself included, he is the definitive spider-man artist. He was one of the founders of Image comics. There's no question he is a comic book legend

I don't mean to offend, but very few TRUE comic enthusiasts, if any at all, would cite Todd McFarlane as THE definitive Spider-Man artist. That's just silly talk, like that time someone said Ed McGuinness was the definitive Superman artist. HA! It is to laugh... Ah...

Being a legend, in truth, is a matter of opinion.

dfbovey

08-02-2010, 06:22 AM

Depends on what you describe as definitive. He's one of the first if not THE first artist I think of, if you ask me to name a Spiderman artist.

Popninja

08-02-2010, 06:53 AM

Depends on what you describe as definitive. He's one of the first if not THE first artist I think of, if you ask me to name a Spiderman artist.

Wow. I don't know what to say to that, Bovey. To each their own, but I find it hard to believe you are the rule, rather than the exception, with your viewpoint.

I was never blown away by McFarlane's work on Spider-Man, so his "impact" is lost on me. Guys like Ditko and the Romitas are above McFarlane on my list of DEFINITIVE Spider-Man artists.

Juggertha

08-02-2010, 07:11 AM

I was never blown away by McFarlane's work on Spider-Man, so his "impact" is lost on me.

I was. so I guess that's a vote alongside Bovey.

kae_ae

08-02-2010, 07:24 AM

Mcf to spidey being compared to Mcguiness to supes is kinda shortchanging todd. Just sayin'.

And while i like romita he doesnt have transcendental qualities like todd does. Im just not big on elitism on comics which i see as a popular medium. Its that kinda thinking that has reduced comics to a niche market, perception wise at least.

Popninja

08-02-2010, 07:54 AM

Mcf to spidey being compared to Mcguiness to supes is kinda shortchanging todd. Just sayin'.

And while i like romita he doesnt have transcendental qualities like todd does.

That's your opinion. Transcendental? Hardly...

On a whim, I googled "definitive spider-man artist" and then switched to images, and of course the first image on the page is JRJr. If any artist on Spider-Man deserves to wear the adjective "transcendental," it's JRJr.

kae_ae

08-02-2010, 09:10 AM

kae_ae

08-02-2010, 09:14 AM

On a whim, I googled "definitive spider-man artist" and then switched to images, and of course the first image on the page is JRJr.

Its called recent searches. N the fact jrjr drew spidey in an era where stuff was more available on the net. Weaksause, as long as youre playing devils advocate put a bit more effort in it :p

Ugga Bugga

08-02-2010, 09:26 AM

For me, McF was someone that was a game changer. His stuff leaped off the page in a way that spoke to people. His layouts were fantastic, and exciting.

There have been better artists, but he was someone that helped jumpstart comic art that at the time, had in a way, lost it's way.

Nezumi Works

08-02-2010, 09:43 AM

I remember when McF's Spidey series came out, and while it was pretty and shiny (for 90's stuff), I found within a couple of issues it really came off as "trying too hard". Looking back on it now, it's really not that great what with Spidey's growing, increasingly egg-shaped head and various other issues, all of which were freely made fun of at the time.

I dunno, there was loads of hype about it when he did it, but since then I don't think I've heard anyone call him influential on the title, let alone definitive, until now.

Popninja

08-02-2010, 10:08 AM

Transcendence = the achievement of status beyond designated profession/applied field. If youre not a comic fan, you prolly wont know who romita jr is.

You can hate mcf all you want but you cant deny the fact ppl associate him with spidey if only for his immense popularity. You can call stephen king a hack but when ppl think horror, ppl think king. Thats transcendental.

I don't hate Todd McFarlane. But to say that one can think horror and think Stephen King and equate that to one can think Spider-man and think Todd McFarlane is FALSE. Stephen King is the master of horror. He's got the resume to back that title. McFarlane doesn't have anything close to that with Spider-Man. Like I said, when I think Spider-Man, I think Romita. No doubt that McFarlane left his mark on Spider-Man, but aside from Venom, I can't think of one aspect of his run on either title that left a lasting impression. He drew Spider-Man with his legs twisted behind his head. That's the McFarlane legacy.

Of course people associate him with Spidey. But then, people associate Mark Bagley with Spidey, too.

Bathill8

08-02-2010, 10:28 AM

Interesting...when I think of McFarlane, I think of Spider-Man. But, when I think of Spider-Man, I don't think of McFarlane. Todd Mac is probably more of a visionary than a legend tho. This is like the old Diva arguements...everyone's a Diva nowadays.

DJ Kenobi

08-02-2010, 01:57 PM

08-02-2010, 04:47 PM

McFarlane isn't the definitive Spider-Man artist, but Spider-Man could be said to be the definitive McFarlane work.

DJ Kenobi

08-02-2010, 05:03 PM

McFarlane isn't the definitive Spider-Man artist, but Spider-Man could be said to be the definitive McFarlane work.

That sounds about right to me.

turnbolt

08-02-2010, 05:55 PM

That's your opinion. Transcendental? Hardly...

On a whim, I googled "definitive spider-man artist" and then switched to images, and of course the first image on the page is JRJr. If any artist on Spider-Man deserves to wear the adjective "transcendental," it's JRJr.

While I am disappointed in his apparent lack of creativity in coming up with an original hero design... I'm with the other guys on McFarlane's Spiderman work, Ninja...

Todd was the first one to give him his freakish flexibility and was the first to draw Venom... his impact on the comic was huge! And frankly, while I acknowledge he has done alot and can draw and is probably a swell guy... I've never been a big JRJr fan... so bleah!

dfbovey

08-02-2010, 06:33 PM

Wow. I don't know what to say to that, Bovey. To each their own, but I find it hard to believe you are the rule, rather than the exception, with your viewpoint.

I was never blown away by McFarlane's work on Spider-Man, so his "impact" is lost on me. Guys like Ditko and the Romitas are above McFarlane on my list of DEFINITIVE Spider-Man artists.

I don't know, I think you'd be surprised at how many people share the same feelings as I do. Frankly I don't see why it's so surprising.

McFarlane was insanely popular during a time when the industry was at it's peak. And he was popular because of the way he drew Spiderman. He brought something unique to the table that no other artist had ever brought to the character. Visually, he redefined how the character could be drawn. He had an exciting style, a fun cartoony yet detailed style and I thought he fit the book perfectly.

Would you also try to argue that Jim Lee was not one of the definitive Xmen artists?

Popninja

08-02-2010, 08:38 PM

I don't know, I think you'd be surprised at how many people share the same feelings as I do. Frankly I don't see why it's so surprising.

McFarlane was insanely popular during a time when the industry was at it's peak. And he was popular because of the way he drew Spiderman. He brought something unique to the table that no other artist had ever brought to the character. Visually, he redefined how the character could be drawn. He had an exciting style, a fun cartoony yet detailed style and I thought he fit the book perfectly.

Would you also try to argue that Jim Lee was not one of the definitive Xmen artists?

"One of?" Absolutely. "The?" Even with Lee, I wouldn't say he was THE definitive X-Men artist. No doubt McFarlane is one of the definitive Spidey artists, but not THE definitive Spidey artist.

dfbovey

08-02-2010, 09:13 PM

autowagon

08-02-2010, 10:09 PM

I have grown very tired of some of the artists that i used to like back in the image days when i was younger, Jim Lee, whilce portacio, Macfarlane, my tastes have changed. As much as i hate to admit that taking some life drawing classes has changed the way i look at some things, it has. Like when does a line just look like a line instead of an edge or fold, or when does cross hatching and rendering become the focus instead of suggestive. I'm into comic book short hand as much as the next guy, but what separates the greats from the rest is when the short hand suggests something greater than the long hand might show. All the pro's say in comics its about knowing the difference between what's good and what's good enough. The truly great artists refine their "good enough" to something greater. The rest of the guys's "good enough" looks exactly as mediocre as you'd expect, a hurried half ass attempt.
--I think mcfarlane's impact on comics over hypes his drawing ability. He like Stan Lee before him gave things a spin to bring things up to date. He was wildly successful in doing so. He was at the forefront of the shifting of the industry at the time with the Image thing, and the investors boom that preceded it where he was also a figurehead. He is a comics poster boy, a celebrity in the comics industry (with stan lee i guess that makes 2 now), but as far as being the greatest artist ever, not really.

dfbovey

08-02-2010, 10:38 PM

Popninja

08-02-2010, 10:54 PM

Well, then there's no argument really. Because I never said he was the absolute definitive artist for Spiderman. I said he was one of them... that his name is "one of if not the first name that comes to mind when I think of Spiderman artists". And if you agree that he's "one of", then why would it be so surprising that some would rank him higher than some of the artists on your list? Like you said, it's all a matter of opinion.

It was the "if not the" part that I was surprised by. Of course it's all a matter of opinion, and I was surprised by that opinion. Even at his peak, popularity-wise, I was never bowled over by McFarlane's work on Spider-Man. I bought it, though, because at the time, he was the hot property and I knew he was onto something. I have my treasured Amazing Spider-Man #300, bagged and boarded and tucked away safely. There never was an argument as much as just a heated discussion. My issue was with calling him a legend and then citing Spider-Man as a reason for calling him a legend, when he only drew like 26 issues out of more than 630. Basically 2 years out of nearly 50. Ditko is a legend. John Romita is a legend. JRJr. is a legend. And they can all be cited as such due to their contributions to the Amazing Spider-Man, among many other comics. McFarlane can not...imo. What he and the Image founders did was legendary, and that's about where it stops.

Again, I don't hate the guy. I was a Spawn fan for many many years and was more impressed with his brief work on that book than I was with his Spidey stuff. In fact, he's the only Image guy whose work I think was better at Image than it was at Marvel. It's a shame he never really stuck with anything artistically longer than a quick sec.

dfbovey

08-02-2010, 11:09 PM

Popninja

08-02-2010, 11:54 PM

If longevity is part of the criteria then he doesn't hold up. But in a short time, he still redefined how the character was drawn. Sometimes artists in their respective fields don't need 100+ issues to make their mark or stake their claim to fame. I mean, he hasn't drawn a book or really been anything other than a CEO for how long? And his work is still talked about.

I never really liked Spawn though. I think it was a decent concept that never really went anywhere. I read it, and 5 issues into it I was hoping he'd go back to Spiderman. I remember when Mark Bagley started drawing Spiderman I was bored to death by the art and ended up dropping my subscription.

Don't even get me started on Mark Bagley, the single reason I couldn't get into Ultimate Spider-Man for the first 111 issues.

But you're right. I guess if an artist is still generating talk 20 years later, it doesn't matter how many issues they drew. Obviously, they made an impact. Like Paul Smith on X-Men. 10 issues was all he did, but people still talk about it 27 years later. John Byrne's 6 issue run on Incredible Hulk is still talked about today, too. So, I guess I can give McFarlane credit for that at least.

08-03-2010, 02:17 AM

Well, then there's no argument really. Because I never said he was the absolute definitive artist for Spiderman.That was Nick:

Being a Legend is not a matter of opinion. You have to look at the facts.

When he leaves comics/retires/dies, he will still be one of the most defining and influential artists of his time, for many, myself included, he is the definitive spider-man artist. He was one of the founders of Image comics. There's no question he is a comic book legend

Beastie

08-03-2010, 07:44 AM

The first few Amazing Spiderman comics that I bought featured McFarlane's work - so I will forever associate him with that title. Its the same with Liefeld and the New Mutants, Jim Lee with the X-Men and Portacio with X-Factor.

They're just the artists that made an impact on those titles - around the time that I start collecting.

I think that this familiarity and memory may bias any views on the subject of which artist is 'the best' on any given title.

I guess it all comes down to when you started reading a particular title.

basil81

08-03-2010, 03:20 PM

All I care about is what the heck is coming out of Haunt's fingers...

I try to refrain from criticizing any artist that works in this field, because I know that no one artist will appeal to everyone. Yeah, so many of these artists will have so called technical faults, but then again so do many of the artists on this forum who everyone just melts over with statements like, "Oh man, you are so good you should go pro..." Let's get real. I hope I never hear such words unless they come from the mouth of an editor who can actually back them up.

McFarlane worked his butt off and finds himself where he is today. Respect that, move on, and maybe learn a little from him...

Seriously though, that's not semen is it? It sure as heck looks like it but I can't tell if the above comments that stated this were to be taken as sarcasm or not...Oh what a thing to ponder, I'll need to find something else to occupy my curiosity before calamity ensues...

NickRocks

08-03-2010, 09:46 PM

i find the whole "Haunt/jizz" joke to be old and not very funny. it's white and goopy LOL IT MUST BE CUM GUIZ LOL. its not coming out of his penis why would it be semen? you really think kirkman, capullo, ottley and Mcf would make a comic about a guy shooting sperm? :rolleyes: maybe ottley would LOL

it's a comic, check it out, its actually not bad. if it didnt have McF tied to it i severely doubt it would get half the criticism/jokes it does now

cbikle

08-03-2010, 10:01 PM

it's white and goopy LOL IT MUST BE CUM GUIZ LOL.

I just found my new quote for my signature !

cbikle

08-03-2010, 10:07 PM

test......

scmarooney

08-04-2010, 01:36 AM

I'm more of a fan of his art before he went totally crazy with the rendering and heavy spike like hatching. But a lot of that depended on who was inking him. When he inked himself, he went nuts.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/bobmitchell/blog%20pics/splash%20page%20sunday/AmazingSpiderman300-40.jpg

This is a cool picture, and you can definitely see why McFarlane made such a huge splash with the "rubber-man" anatomy. More interesting to me is that the background in this picture is obviously a photograph, and not drawn by the artist. Since this was long before the days of photoshop, I wonder if it is a simple photostat they pasted into the panel and then the colorist added colors to it?

basil81

08-04-2010, 05:37 AM

kae_ae

08-04-2010, 06:13 AM

When I think of Spiderman, I think of Steve Ditko.

When I think of Todd McFarlane, I think of the Korn video he directed, buying expensive baseballs, and his heavy Canadian accent at the beginning of the Spawn cartoon: "So turn ooot your lights, and enjoy Spooahn."

Lol

Somebody memtioned his inking work. I happened to think hes a better inker than penciller. If his body of work was just inking i bet he'd have a better pro rep, like a terry austin or something.

Bruce Lee

08-04-2010, 08:17 AM

I don't think there's any debate about Todd McFarlane! I'm pretty sure he's REAL--just like Santa Claus! :eek:

turnbolt

08-04-2010, 12:39 PM

When I think of Todd McFarlane, I think of the Korn video he directed, buying expensive baseballs, and his heavy Canadian accent at the beginning of the Spawn cartoon: "So turn ooot your lights, and enjoy Spooahn."

You know... all of these things are things that made me care less about him... which is another reason I probably liked him better when he was just doing Spiderman.

Not the Canadian accent... but the melodramatic show opening I could have done without... made him seem cheesy.

NickRocks

08-04-2010, 12:45 PM

...ok...so what is it?

...is this a serious question?

turnbolt

08-04-2010, 12:50 PM

...ok...so what is it?

It's web fluid... Todd still had a bunch left over and figured the guy is gonna look like Spiderman anyway so... why not?

But its long expired so it's become kind of... well... sploogy...

basil81

08-04-2010, 02:28 PM

...is this a serious question?

...maybe..

basil81

08-04-2010, 02:32 PM

Getting a simple question answered around here is like pulling teeth apparently...

NickRocks

08-04-2010, 02:33 PM

if you really didnt know why didnt you just google?

http://www.comicvine.com/haunt/29-59913/

basil81

08-04-2010, 02:46 PM

I did. The first page of course being the wikipedia of it. I skimmed through that and it was pretty short and didn't seem to shed light on the matter, and I just sort of ended it there and thought I'd wait for one of you kind sirs to enlighten me, seeing as how nobody would have any problems in obliging...I guess I was wrong.

Had one of you guys asked a question I knew the answer to, I would have gladly answered it, without the snide "Just google it" remark. This marks negative experience #2 on this forum, I hope the count stops there.

Ugga Bugga

08-04-2010, 02:53 PM

we all just ignore Nickguy,

Popninja

08-04-2010, 03:35 PM

Yeah, and it's weird that NickGuy, out of everybody on this forum, is getting all serious over something silly like jizz webs.

cbikle

08-04-2010, 03:56 PM

Yeah, and it's weird that NickGuy, out of everybody on this forum, is getting all serious over something silly like jizz webs.

JizzWebs was my old CB radio handle.

turnbolt

08-04-2010, 08:26 PM

Yeah, and it's weird that NickGuy, out of everybody on this forum, is getting all serious over something silly like jizz webs.

I'm glad you said that... I found it odd too!

dfbovey

08-04-2010, 08:49 PM

If there's one thing that Nick is serious about, it's jizz.

NickRocks

08-04-2010, 09:24 PM

If there's one thing that Nick is serious about, it's jizz.

dfboner, that was such an amazing line im not even mad. well done

dfbovey

08-04-2010, 09:35 PM

dfboner, that was such an amazing line im not even mad. well done

1,765,874 tissues can't be wrong.

We need a spooge smiley.

basil81

08-05-2010, 03:19 AM

I ain't mad either, NickGuy just caught me on one my "the world sucks" days. I realize now that it was I who erred, and so from this day forth, I shall no longer speak ill of jizz, jism, cum, nut, spooge, *******, dick puke, pearl necklaces, white stuff, Elmer's glue, face cream, man milk, protein injections, secret sauce...etc.

The juice is sacred, I get it now...

Beastie

08-05-2010, 03:39 AM

You forgot my favourite term of all.....

'Gentleman's Relish'.

Its just a beautiful use of the English language.

basil81

08-05-2010, 04:37 AM

You forgot my favourite term of all.....

'Gentleman's Relish'.

Its just a beautiful use of the English language.

Brilliant, I will from this day forth refer to it exclusively as Gentleman's Relish...

I'm sure Mr. McFarlane would be pleased to know that a discussion on his aptitude as a comic book artist has lead to an argument over semen...

spidey976

08-07-2010, 09:57 PM

AH ... I like a good Man Jelly conversation as much as the ... hey ... no I don't ... you guys are TO obsessed with man junk ... lol

IMHO

When I think Spiderman, I think ... Romita Sr. and Mark Bagley

When I think of Todd McF I think about how much I loved his work on Amazing, and hated his work when he got his own "Spiderman" title. How much I liked his worked when he FIRST started Spawn. Then how he decided he would rather be a rock star ... touch baseball greatness by buying record setting balls ... and then designing toys.

To be honest I think that he will never reach the level of a comic book ARTISTIC legend the way say Kirby or Buscema did. In fact I think that in the next 20 years there won't be ANY new comic book artist who comes out and says "Wow ... Todd McF REALLY inspired me to draw comics". Now do I think that there will be guys who do that the same way Kirby did ... oh hell yeah. I think guys like Ivan Reis, Ed Benes, and Jim Lee will be some of the names that guys talk about (and of course guys like Mike Mig and Frank Miller will be in there to as they are rediscovered). Being honest I was tempted to not include ANY of the Image founders in that list as MOST of them are BARELY drawing anymore, and NONE of them will put together a body of work that compares to say a Kirby. I only included Lee because ... well ... he is the only name I still ALWAYS hear, and just SEEING his work on Batman Hush made the students I teach in school excited about comics. I don't see many people getting REALLY excited about ANY of the Image guys. Hell I think Image United was a complete failure in the end.

kae_ae

08-07-2010, 11:46 PM

slyaguilar

08-07-2010, 11:56 PM

I think Todd IS the definitive Spidey artist..........of the late 80's early 90's. That's how a lot of comic enthusiasts might see it. Legend, I dunno. He definitely took Spidey and changed the way people illustrate him forever. I would be bold enough to say that he is as legendary as someone like Frank Miller, but no where near as legendary as Jack Kirby. I grew up on 90's comics, so maybe I'm a little bias.

Popninja

08-08-2010, 03:16 PM

Hell I think Image United was a complete failure in the end.

In the end? As I predicted, it stalled out at #2, right? There hasn't been a new issue of Image United in 2010. Granted, it wasn't hard to make such a prediction. Their reputations preceded them. Old habits die hard. Gosh, there's a ton of cliches I could throw out. Sad, so sad...

Popninja

08-08-2010, 03:20 PM

I dont think that is as much as probelm specific to todd than a sign of the times. There is less an emphasis these days on developing artisans than personalities with broad appeal. Todds success is a testament to that, he was basically a product of his time. I think there are other guys from that era who were much dedicated to honing their craft and at this point can be considered masters but the way the industry works is that it will always glorify the superstars for sales sake while the blue collar guys are celebrated in the niche market. But based on guys like todds success you cant blame kids coming up and say, man i want to be that guy even if he is a douche.

The problem with that, though, is that kids want the success, but they don't understand that success comes from actual hard work. So, yeah, they can say "I wanna be like Todd McFarlane!" But like a lot of success stories, it's more about right place, right time, than actual work and dues paid. With McFarlane, his riches come more from being a businessman than being a comic book artist. He's rich from selling toys, not from drawing comic books.

NickRocks

08-08-2010, 09:39 PM

psh, anyone who says they didnt copy a todd mcf spidey pic at one point or another is lying or a baby

Popninja

08-08-2010, 09:42 PM

psh, anyone who says they didnt copy a todd mcf spidey pic at one point or another is lying or a baby

Or too old...

...like me.

kae_ae

08-09-2010, 01:32 AM

does this topic count as nickguy cheating on frank miller?

NickRocks

08-09-2010, 08:35 PM

Or too old...

...like me.

yeah i forgot about the old farts lol

NickRocks

08-09-2010, 08:35 PM

does this topic count as nickguy cheating on frank miller?

no, considering McF is part of Miller's Batman timeline

http://picturebookzone.com/images/batman_spawn_graphic_novel_2.jpg

^takes place after ASBAR

dfbovey

08-09-2010, 08:46 PM

The problem with that, though, is that kids want the success, but they don't understand that success comes from actual hard work. So, yeah, they can say "I wanna be like Todd McFarlane!" But like a lot of success stories, it's more about right place, right time, than actual work and dues paid. With McFarlane, his riches come more from being a businessman than being a comic book artist. He's rich from selling toys, not from drawing comic books.

He wouldn't be in the toy business if he first didn't make a name for himself in comics though. He did make a ton of money towards the end of his run with Marvel, and Spawn did incredibly well to start off with. I would imagine that he was a millionaire before he left for image.

I don't think his toy company would have had much success without his name attached to it. Which he built in the comic industry.

There's a good chance I'm not remembering very well, but It seemed to me that the big name guys all worked pretty hard before they left to create Image.

Popninja

08-09-2010, 10:31 PM

There's a good chance I'm not remembering very well, but It seemed to me that the big name guys all worked pretty hard before they left to create Image.

Back in the day, when they were Marvel guys, they worked their asses off. And truth be told, in a few cases. their pre-Image Marvel work was their best work...

...imo.

NickRocks

08-09-2010, 10:34 PM

hey now, Larsen still draws a monthly comic. it's actually really awesome.

spidey976

08-10-2010, 08:44 AM

hey now, Larsen still draws a monthly comic. it's actually really awesome.

If I am not mistaken Larsen is the only guy who is still working on his original character Savage Dragon under the Image banner. So in a very real way he is the ONLY one of them who really stuck to the "ideals" that were behind the formation of Image in the first place, which was to create and nurture their own characters and worlds.

As for the guys making crap loads of money when they left ... well I read an article that said that some of them were making 6 figures an issue when their books FIRST came out and were selling millions of issues a piece. Some of them bought houses outright based on their advanced cheques, and then the business of comics got in the way, and the business of merchandising (WILDCATS and Spawn cartoons anyone). Also, I would have to agree with Dave with respect to McF being a millionaire before he left the Spawn title as it was the highest selling independent title ever if I remember correctly.

As for the image founders doing their best work at Marvel ... I could argue that I think McF really was at the same level when he did Spawn, and that Lee's Batman Hush was my personal favorite work from him, but that is all just oppinion.

turnbolt

08-10-2010, 08:33 PM

As for the image founders doing their best work at Marvel ... I could argue that I think McF really was at the same level when he did Spawn, and that Lee's Batman Hush was my personal favorite work from him, but that is all just oppinion.

I agree with this whole heartedly... especially about Lee's Batman Hush, though it is off topic a tad...

Trama

08-11-2010, 06:33 PM

With all the McFarland lawsuit news going on lately, I pulled his original Spawn run, and realized a couple of things:

1. He was pretty much off of Spawn by issue 13.

2. I was surprised how much I enjoyed his art and layouts, but that's because I've considered him more of a businessman for a long time.

I kind of feel that McFarland will get the same love that George Lucas will when it's all said and done. For all the complaining, Lucas gave us digital editing, digital sound, CGI, Pixar, etc. I really feel that Image succeeded because McFarland was so committed and so driven to make it work that there's a reason it thrived and survived past the 90's speculative crash. And while they'll mention Spider-Man and Spawn, he'll be remembered for leading a bunch of guys across the street and setting up a successful alternative to the big two.

kae_ae

08-12-2010, 12:54 AM

good call on the lucas comparison actually. Theres another guy who was heralded as an artist but reviled as a businessman. And true enough lucas legacy will always be his his empire rather than his film making talents, when in fact the latter impacted a lot on how popular movies were made artistically (multi layered, fast cuts).

Paul Renderwrx

08-15-2010, 03:15 PM

How much is Mcfarlane worth anyway? Anyone know?

Popninja

08-15-2010, 08:28 PM

I can't believe you guys are comparing Todd McFarlane to George Lucas. Comparing McFarlane to Lucas is like comparing a Velveeta single to a wheel of Gorgonzola.

turnbolt

08-15-2010, 08:50 PM

I can't believe you guys are comparing Todd McFarlane to George Lucas. Comparing McFarlane to Lucas is like comparing a Velveeta single to a wheel of Gorgonzola.

STRONGLY agree with Popninja! McFarlane will NEVER recieve the same "love" as George Lucas... McFarlane's accomplishments lined up next to Lucas' is like putting a model of an aircraft carrier next to the USS Enterprise (CV-6). I mean even if you love Todd... that doesn't even make sense.

cbikle

08-15-2010, 09:20 PM

STRONGLY agree with Popninja! McFarlane will NEVER recieve the same "love" as George Lucas... McFarlane's accomplishments lined up next to Lucas' is like putting a model of an aircraft carrier next to the USS Enterprise (CV-6). I mean even if you love Todd... that doesn't even make sense.

And I also STRONGLY agree with Turnbolt who STRONGLY agrees with Popninja.

Comparing McFarlane to Lucas is like comparing a grilled-cheese sandwich to a BLT !

EDIT: My analogy isn't as good as the other guys. :(:(:(

NickRocks

08-15-2010, 09:41 PM

comparing McF to Lucas is like comparing Bill Buckner to Barry Bonds.

'll be surprised if anyone gets that

turnbolt

08-15-2010, 09:58 PM

And I also STRONGLY agree with Turnbolt who STRONGLY agrees with Popninja.

Comparing McFarlane to Lucas is like comparing a grilled-cheese sandwich to a BLT !

EDIT: My analogy isn't as good as the other guys. :(:(:(

Not as good my ASS!!! BLT gots BACON!!! Grilled cheese ain't got no bacon!

Just like George Lucas has bacon... and Toddy DON'T!

fatmancomics

08-15-2010, 10:39 PM

dfbovey

08-15-2010, 10:54 PM

To be a legend IMO, it means that you (and or your creations for the sake of this argument) are remembered well after you're gone. Todd isn't gone gone. But I think his work and his creations will probably be remembered well after he is.

I think some similarities can be drawn between Lucas and McFarlane on the level that a good chunk of their fans turned on the properties they created, and no longer hold the creators themselves in high esteem.

kae_ae

08-15-2010, 11:46 PM

tru dat ^

nobodys saying mcfarlance will reach lucas level considering films are a much more accessible and popular medium. but as far as x personality to x medium is concern, lucas is a pretty good comparison. they both are successful yet polarizing figures. to carry on with the film analogy, stan lee is like steven spielberg, beyond their prime yet universally loved.

if u disagree with the lucas analogy its mostly coz u still hold lucas in high esteem when in reality the fandom can be considered split over him.

turnbolt

08-16-2010, 05:35 AM

Alright, here's how I measure success: Do non fanboys know either you or your creations? Everyone around the world knows Star Wars. Hell, I knew Star Wars for as long as I can remember and I didn't even see any of the films until I was 9.

As far as McFarlane goes, non fanboys know Spawn. Whether it's from the movie or the HBO cartoons, I have yet to ask, "Do you know what Spawn is?" to a non fanboy to have the reply, "no." So, is he an amazing legend? Maybe not yet but he sure as hell is on his way to becoming one through his creation. Did Mr. Disney create anything other than Mickey Mouse (and even that wasn't JUST his)? Did Bob Kane create anything other than Batman (which recently has been revealed to be a not so subtle rip-off of the original Black Cat along with his art being shown to have several swipes)?

If I ask my 11-year-old daughter or any of her friends what Star Wars is... whether they are boys or girls... they know all about it. If I ask my daughter or her friends about anything Disney... they know all about it. If I ask my daughter or her friends about Spawn... it doesn't matter if they are boys or girls... they ask me "What's Spawn???".

Future generations of "non-fanboys" as you put it will forget Spawn... Spawn was cool for a while... but it isn't any more legendary than Youngblood in the long run. It was better than Youngblood... but it wll fall by the wayside over time just the same...

I'll watch old Star Wars movies any time they are on... I honestly don't care if I ever see Spawn again. I had a phase with it... it was cool... and I'm honestly over it. The best thing about Spawn was the toys... and I'm pretty much past those as well.

And just to be fair... NOBODY who doesn't read comics knows who Bob Kane is... which is unfortunate.

turnbolt

08-16-2010, 05:54 AM

...if u disagree with the lucas analogy its mostly coz u still hold lucas in high esteem when in reality the fandom can be considered split over him.

No... it's because Lucas has accomplished a crap ton in the film industry with special effects, sound, pretty much every movie made now is in some way touched by George Lucas' accomplishments. My wife knows George Lucas... My brothers and sisters know George Lucas... all my film school nerd friends in L.A. know and admire George Lucas for everything he has done to change the world of cenema. Ask any of these people about McFarlane...? Some of the film school kids know who he is... but you know... whatever.

Whether he did it all himself or not is unimportant... Lucas has his name on everything that makes going to the movies awesome...

Quoted from his write up on filmbug.com:

Lucasfilm, established by George Lucas in 1971, has today evolved into five Lucas companies. The Lucas group of companies includes Lucasfilm Ltd., Lucas Online, LucasArts Entertainment Company LLC, Lucas Digital Ltd. LLC, Lucas Licensing Ltd. and Lucas Learning Ltd. Lucasfilm includes all of Lucas' feature film and television productions as well as the business activities of the THX Group, which is dedicated to ensuring excellent film presentation quality in theaters and homes through a series of specialized services.

LucasArts is a leading international developer and publisher of interactive entertainment software, which have won critical acclaim with more than 100 industry awards for excellence. Lucas Digital, which consists of Industrial Light & Magic (ILM) and Skywalker Sound, provides visual effects and audio post-production services to the entertainment and commercial production industries. ILM employees have won 40 Oscars working on films which have been awarded 14 Academy Awards for Best Visual Effects and received 14 Scientific and Technical Achievement Awards. Skywalker Sound employees have been honored with 28 Oscars working on films which have been awarded 15 Academy Awards for Best Sound and Best Sound Effects Editing. Lucas Licensing is responsible for the merchandising of all of Lucasfilm's film and television properties. Lucas Learning strives to create an uncommon learning experience by offering engaging interactive software products that provide learning opportunities through exploration and discovery.

Frankly I don't care who's pouty about Star Wars and who isn't... Lucas will be remembered and his name will be attached to things that will impact film for years to come.

Can you say the same about McFarlane in comics? He made a few mil... bought some baseballs... and CHECKED OUT!

And I wouldn't call Haunt a "come back" either...

Show me the impact he has made individually in comics that matches him up to what Lucas has done in film... don't worry... I'll wait...

kae_ae

08-16-2010, 07:09 AM

Dude your missing the point. Of which has already been higlighted in previous post: there are levels of notoriety. Nobody is claiming mcfarlane to be as famous nor influential as lucas. Comics dont have the kind of reach movies do. Even stan lee, the most celebrated comic industry figure will attain it. We're talking parallels/analogues here. Ugh. Here, lrt me spell it out for u again s-l-o-w-l-y:

Lucas n mcfarlane are both similar in that in their prime they changed the game, affecting not only their immediate expertise but also other at the periphery (merchandising, cross media) and after attaining much success, opinions of them divided between their contributions to the field/arts and the perception of selling out/excess.

Kindly point out if any of what i typed is incorrect. Heres a clue: you wont.

turnbolt

08-16-2010, 08:34 AM

Okay. If we are going to debate this. let's do it for real.

Since I am so thick and clearly not as bright as you are by the tone of your last post.

Before I hamfistedly attempt to disprove your statements... I would like you to provide specific examples and source material for this comparison.

Dude your missing the point. Of which has already been higlighted in previous post: there are levels of notoriety. Nobody is claiming mcfarlane to be as famous nor influential as lucas. Comics dont have the kind of reach movies do. Even stan lee, the most celebrated comic industry figure will attain it. We're talking parallels/analogues here. Ugh. Here, lrt me spell it out for u again s-l-o-w-l-y:

Lucas n mcfarlane are both similar in that in their prime they changed the game, affecting not only their immediate expertise but also other at the periphery (merchandising, cross media) and after attaining much success, opinions of them divided between their contributions to the field/arts and the perception of selling out/excess.

Kindly point out if any of what i typed is incorrect. Heres a clue: you wont.

Give me a line by line layout of Lucas' accomplishments and then Todd's next to each other so that I may see how parallel they are... with links to support your facts. I'm not saying you're wrong. Maybe you have a point. But I want all the facts in front of me before I can specifically say whether I see where you are coming from or not.

When their twin careers are laid out for all to see, then we can all better understand if this is a legit comparison or not. As the champion of the "McFarlane = Lucas" side. I charge you with this challenge.

I am certain you will do well. That's not sarcastic either... I am seriously sure you will do well. I look forward to it.

kae_ae

08-16-2010, 09:21 AM

A bit of context 1st; star wars was in fact my 1st incursion into internet discussion. I was a collector but later got burnt out by the habit (only to move to transformers haha). So even after being jaded by sw fandom i still held lucas in high esteem from a creator viewpoint. This was a guy who initially as counter establishment as they come and while his peers had highs n lows artistically, this guy disregarded critics to truly pave his own never before treaded path. I'm actually middle of the road in my opinion of mcf so i dont use the comparison callously. So point by point, here goes my rebuttal:

- both initially shot to fame due to artistic merits. Both were considered populist that high brow critics wouldnt take seriously. Lucas with his fast cutting (even now somebody like baz luhrman is not taken seriously because of this) n multi layer plotting which eschew actors performance/character development. Mcf had this cartoony style with intense detailing and it broke some traditional conventions. But it was popular and while not often imitated you could see influences in certain aspect in guys coming up afterwards, at least in their initial careers when they were just making their names (sorry no names here, not much of a comic historian)

- having established a market presence, both showed ambition n threw their fat around a bit, partly because they could but importantly they were essentially maverick. Lucas just would not buy into the studio system, asserting his independence to the point of physically relocating from hollywood. I wont go into details but ive read from both articles and at least 1 of biographical books on him. Lucas is a visionary by necesity, he did things because he was genuinely dissatisfied with the status quo. At that point he forgo hi legacy as an artist. Meanwhile mcf and co opened image n the whole creator owned comics was a big f u to the big 2.

- the bit about trascending their original vocation is pretty apparent. Lucas recognize merchandising rights value ftom the start, forgoing money up front so hed have full control. Mcf too recognize the potential beyond just comics. But to be honest this bit was easier for mcf. There was already a trailblazer for merch whoring but mcf was smart enough to not be content, he pushed the envelope as far as how detail he could get action figures to be. In the 90s mcf toys was synonymous with toys as adult collectibles so he certainly left his mark in the toy biz.

- and lastly their fame came to a point where their own fans turned against them. With mcf i guess is excess, im fuzzy on this to be honest. With lucas it was over controlling. Like how he fiddled with details of the OT which at that point were classics. Whatevs. Point is guys were either or against lucas/mcf at some point or another. Rarely youd find who were middle ground. Just the mention of their names illicit discussion. This thread itself is evidence.

So while i wouldnt mind u flat out disagreeing as it is ur prerogative, acknowledging some of the facts (as opposed anecdotes) presented would at least go some way to establishing your knowledge if not opinion.

Tldr, mcf = srs bsnz

Popninja

08-16-2010, 10:38 AM

This is some of the silliest shit I've ever read in my life. How can you possibly draw comparison's between McFarlane's contributions to comics with George Lucas' contribution to EVERYTHING. From movies to toys to videogames to television...EVERYTHING!

Every time a I plunk in a Blu-Ray and that THX noise crescendos and shakes my living room...

...thank you, George Lucas.

When my kid is running around the house for an hour, with his best friend, fighting furiously with their toy lightsabres...

...thank you, George Lucas.

Industrial Light & Magic, which has had their hand in TONS of movies you really really love...

...thank you, George Lucas.

I could go on, but I don't really have to. My point is made. Drawing comparisons between the two is an exercise in futility.

I would also like to remind people that there were creator-owned books BEFORE Todd McFarlane. He didn't revolutionize any of that. Image was a great thing, no doubt. McFarlane Toys? Cool...baseball figures and dragons and shit! Wow.

Come on, guys...

Velveeta single vs. wheel of Gorgonzola. And I use the wheel as basically a symbol of value to pop culture as a whole.

pigeonmilk

08-16-2010, 11:07 AM

nail in the coffin....stick a fork in this discussion..

If anyone could be compared to as the "George Lucas of comic books" I would say it would be like Stan Lee and Kirby maybe...

VicM

08-16-2010, 01:51 PM

I agree with Pop here.

The only similarity between the two is they both returned after their initial impacts to just not be very impressive (Macfarlane with anything after initial Spawn. Lucas with the Star Wars prequels.)

If Macfarlane created Photoshop and digital colouring maybe he could be compared to Lucas.

Popninja

08-16-2010, 02:01 PM

The only similarity between the two is they both returned after their initial impacts to just not be very impressive (Macfarlane with anything after initial Spawn. Lucas with the Star Wars prequels.).

When you say "returned" you make it sound like Lucas disappeared at some point. When did he duck out of sight, so to speak?

VicM

08-16-2010, 02:10 PM

When you say "returned" you make it sound like Lucas disappeared at some point. When did he duck out of sight, so to speak?

I mean to his Star Wars Legacy.

50%grey

08-16-2010, 03:08 PM

Shittttt... I would die a happy man if I was responsible for THX 1138, Graffiti bridge,and Star Wars.

Wouldnt even care what people said at that point lol.

kae_ae

08-16-2010, 03:30 PM

Again, i agree that lucas cultural impact is waaaaaay ahead of mcf. Mcf is just at smaller scale, im talking career trajectory here.

Also if i want to talk about lee n kirby there are other guys that compare better, more respectable guy. Ive already mentioned spielberg. How about scorsese?

But again even spielberg extends only as far as production (dreamworks). Lucas branching into effects n computers is more similar to Mcf branching into toys.

N lucas contribution to effects (the real contribution was motion tracking dogfight scenes) isnt so much the effect itself but the business model for effects. Just like how weta came after ILM.

Mcf impact on toys not apparent? Just shows your lack of knowledge in regards to collectibles. Neca tried to simulate mcf success with license stuff. And mcf success brought in superstar sculptors to the point the four horseman has the kind of clout it has despite bring creative guys (as opposed to coming from business side). Let me blow your mind: mcf toys even affected lucas toys. Back in the 90s when hasbro put out beefcake versions of 80s action figure, took em till mid 00s to do action figure in static poses in 3 3/4 line (saga line) with emphasis on sculpting. Who do you think set that precedent? Mcf with his movie master series.

Seems i have to repeat this: yes i agree their reach is different, but career path n influence, mcf has more simlarities to lucas than not n youd be hard pressed to to find another guy thst compares better. Im listening.

(personally im just into this discussion because this is 1st time ive seen mcf n lucas being compared n it really made sense)

Popninja

08-16-2010, 04:14 PM

(personally im just into this discussion because this is 1st time ive seen mcf n lucas being compared n it really made sense)

To you. It makes ZERO sense to me. I just don't get it. Even from a "career trajectory" point of view, it just doesn't stack up. It just doesn't. Sorry.

Popninja

08-16-2010, 04:15 PM

Shittttt... I would die a happy man if I was responsible for THX 1138, Graffiti bridge,and Star Wars.

Wouldnt even care what people said at that point lol.

I think you meant "American Graffiti." Graffiti Bridge is quite possibly one of the worst movies ever made by a guy who should have stuck to music, or put the film making in the hands of someone who knew what the hell they were doing. Yeah, "that" guy. The one in my avatar.

spidey976

08-16-2010, 05:13 PM

Okay I will ignore the Lucas to McF comparission because that is a weird one for me. Lucas is an okay director, but he isn't the game changer like a Spielberg, his contributions are mainly the technical ones (ILM, THX, SkyWalker Sound) and the universes he helped to build. He hasn't been the Producer of a lot, but maybe not the main visionary behind everything. The new prequel movies of StarWars are his biggest contribution to the vision of that universe and they are some of the WORST films ... and those are HIS VISION as the director. However, the universe was his baby and he did well by it for the most part. Surrounding himself with artists and writters who build up something amazing. Todd on the other hand ... well he used his hands to create images and ideas that inspired a lot of artists ... though never on the same level as Lucas.

I will be honest. I don't think McF REALLY going to be a comic book legend. I don't see him being remembered after our generation has come and gone. Kirby, Lee, Buscema, Miller (and I am not a huge Miller fanboy) ... I can see those names being remember when we are gone. McFarlane just isn't in that category to me ... maybe if he hadn't checked out ... but he did.

kae_ae

08-16-2010, 05:38 PM

Spidey,

Lucas was highly regarded as he was coming into SW. Thx brought him into the limelight as a student n american grafitti. He was right there with his generation, the spielbergs, the de palmas as up n coming auteurs n close enough to (i cant remember whether it was coppola or scorsese) to learn 1st hand via american zoetrope (coppola/scorsese production co., just going off memory here) before setting up lucasfilm. So the perception about his technical contributions is very superfluous. He wouldnt get to his place if he didnt have the chops in the 1st place.

(also, while he is only credited as director for ANH, make no mistakes whose film it is. He only relegates actor dealing duties because he admittedly sucks at it, his instruction mostly goes 'faster n more intense' :) but he works his magic in editing. Hes right there viewing daily cuts at the end of each shooting day n only conceded to relegate task thru ESB n ROTJ -im showing my true fanboy colors here- because he was busy setting up other aspects of lucasfilm/ILM, plus a ongoing divorce process during ESB. He is a control freak and even tho he had collaborators (designer joe johnston went on to direct rocketeer actually, ben burtt sound directed wall-e) each design was approved directly by him. Hed give instructions like, make this cruiser look like an outboard motor, n the falcon look like a cheeseburger with wings; as much as movies are a highly colaborative process -because they need to be- lucas is very much dictating. I get worked up over discussion like this because a lot of it is based of success as opposed to process which naturally ppl tend to gloss over.)

And i cant tell u how brain numbing it is for me (lol) to read that u only credit the prequel as his true vision compared to the OT. Both prequel n OT are his total vision (unlike CW cartoons etc) if the prequel sucks its just he is slightly out of touch and has too much time these days :) i dont care whos name is on the director credit. The most ppl would say is ESB had good human interaction because whatshisname director came from a drama background, nobody ever goes 'but rotj was a marquand film!' those flunkies were practically 2nd unit guys only because lucas couldnt be on location due to other responsibilities. Like i said, hes got a lotta time these days ;)

50%grey

08-16-2010, 05:42 PM

Yeah,i totaly was looking at that avatar when i posted that LOL

OMFG prince has owned me though the internet haha

kae_ae

08-16-2010, 05:59 PM

I will be honest. I don't think McF REALLY going to be a comic book legend. I don't see him being remembered after our generation has come and gone. Kirby, Lee, Buscema, Miller (and I am not a huge Miller fanboy) ... I can see those names being remember when we are gone. McFarlane just isn't in that category to me ... maybe if he hadn't checked out ... but he did.

I think thats pretty fair. Considering nobody highly regards lucas a director as anyway. So just like mcf, they will be remembered more for industrial contribution rather than being mere director/artist; they are visionaries. For better or worse.

Dri

08-16-2010, 06:28 PM

turnbolt

08-16-2010, 07:12 PM

To you. It makes ZERO sense to me. I just don't get it. Even from a "career trajectory" point of view, it just doesn't stack up. It just doesn't. Sorry.

Pop said it best... makes ZERO sense.

turnbolt

08-16-2010, 07:15 PM

It goes to show that you are only as good as your last work. People keep talking about Spawn but what of Venom, that he helped co create with David Michelinie. Sure, it's not original by design but it is impactful. Consider that his little contribution is regarded as Spidey's biggest foe and was hugely anticipated by (the poor) Spiderman 3.

I used to dig McFarlane's work but I'm somewhat neutral now. I will recognize him as a comic book legend alongside the likes of Stan Lee, Kirby, Miller,etc for his contributions when he was at his peak. To set the legend benchmark to Jack Kirby is just crazy. No one is going to achieve that again. I'm pretty curious as to who people think which comic book creator in the 90s can be labeled a comic book legend.

If nobody ever measures up to Kirby and Stan Lee ever again... do we just lower the bar??? I won't. That's for damn sure. McFarlane had a great run and did some really cool things and had a huge impact on me as a kid reading comics... but I honestly out grew him. If I met him today I'd be like, "Hey, nice to meet you, man." If I met Lee or Kirby I'd be like, "HOLY SH*T!!! IT'S STAN LEE/JACK KIRBY!!!" I'd try to keep it on the inside... but I'd feel it nonetheless.

cbikle

08-16-2010, 08:00 PM

Also McFarlane didn't have the same challenges as Kirby, Eisner, et al.

Really, Todd was in the right place, right time and has had a pretty easy time of things, but hasn't really accomplished as much as his predecessors (at least not as of yet).

50%grey

08-16-2010, 08:04 PM

Can't believe anyone would compare Lucas to mcfarlane.

Lucas has created movies that are timeless and will be considered the best of cinema for years to come

Mcfarlane had a popular run on spiderman and created a toy line made for geeks???

Does anyone even buy spawn lol

kae_ae

08-16-2010, 08:04 PM

I used to dig McFarlane's work but I'm somewhat neutral now. I will recognize him as a comic book legend alongside the likes of Stan Lee, Kirby, Miller,etc for his contributions when he was at his peak. To set the legend benchmark to Jack Kirby is just crazy. No one is going to achieve that again. I'm pretty curious as to who people think which comic book creator in the 90s can be labeled a comic book legend.

Yeah, i mean, this. Nobodys talking about lowering the bar. Its a matter of, again, context. Do you discredit shaquille oneal because he never scored a hundred like silt or won 8?9? Like bill russell? Do you discredit jordan because he never average a triple double like oscar robertson? Just because citizen kane is consistently all time best does it mean nobody besides Welles can be legend? Come on, thats ridiculous. And its laughable the only rebuttal im getting is 'that doesnt make sense'. Thats not even an actual counterpoint or argument.

Me: my point is blah blah blah
Other person: well, youre wrong.
Me: because...?
Op: just because!
Me: *facepalm*

turnbolt

08-16-2010, 08:25 PM

Yeah, i mean, this. Nobodys talking about lowering the bar. Its a matter of, again, context. Do you discredit shaquille oneal because he never scored a hundred like silt or won 8?9? Like bill russell? Do you discredit jordan because he never average a triple double like oscar robertson? Just because citizen kane is consistently all time best does it mean nobody besides Welles can be legend? Come on, thats ridiculous. And its laughable the only rebuttal im getting is 'that doesnt make sense'. Thats not even an actual counterpoint or argument.

Me: my point is blah blah blah
Other person: well, youre wrong.
Me: because...?
Op: just because!
Me: *facepalm*

Kae_ae, I asked you for factual references with links to source material backing up your statements proving McFarlane and Lucas' careers are so similar and you gave me more opinions. We can argue opinions all day, but until fact is brought in all I can say is I disagree with your comparison. It's silly. If I fought off a neighborhood bully and then were the first president of a club of kids in my neighborhood as a child, would you compare me to George Washington? We were both first presidents... we both fought against tyranny... sounds about the same to me.

Look. I just disagree with you. And to be honest... I don't see you convincing me otherwise. I don't expect you to agree with me either, but the bottom line is I feel that Todd McFarlane bears no similarity to George Lucas in his accomplishments, his drive, his creativity, his industrious nature or in any other way. You have provided zero documentation to back these statements up and until you do this conversation can't progress forward beyond our stalemate.

McFarlane had some great moments... moments that had an effect on me and my love of comics and I will always remember him for that... but the guy was no George Lucas.

NickRocks

08-16-2010, 08:57 PM

Shittttt... I would die a happy man if I was responsible for Venom.

Wouldnt even care what people said at that point lol.

c wut i did thar

McF is a legend, just because you don't see it that way doesn't change the fact that he is. He will be a legend just as much for what he did off page as on page. the fact that this thread has as many pages in it as it does goes to show it.

now excuse me, im off to do important things like play video games

turnbolt

08-16-2010, 09:04 PM

c wut i did thar

McF is a legend, just because you don't see it that way doesn't change the fact that he is. He will be a legend just as much for what he did off page as on page. the fact that this thread has as many pages in it as it does goes to show it.

now excuse me, im off to do important things like play video games

You opened your statement by paraphrasing 50% Grey's statement and basically stating that the creation of Venom compares to THX 1138, American Graffiti, and Star Wars.

Todd's had some great moments...I wouldn't say he's a legend on the basis of the creation of Venom... Liefeld created Cable... Cable's cool... is Liefeld a legend???

NickRocks

08-16-2010, 09:39 PM

turnbolt

08-16-2010, 09:52 PM

that wasnt a comparison of McF and Lucas, but nice try.

That was me saying that that statement could also apply to Mcf. He created Venom, widely considered to be one of spideys greatest foes. thats no easy feat to do on a characters that was already almost 30 years old.

Liefeld is a legend too. I think alot of you are confusing "legend" with "amazing artist". People still and will still talk about these guys when they are gone. that alone gives them a legend.

liefelds legend is that of an artist who capitalized during an "easy" period of comics and despite his artistic flaws made a ton of money and was a founding father of one of the biggest comic companies. no one can take that from him.

Right... you took a statement about Lucas creating THX 1138, American Graffiti, and Star Wars... and attempted to apply it to McFarlane's creation of Venom... And I said "not even close."

People will talk about everyone who ever drew comics or wrote comics when they are gone... it doesn't make them all legends. If people remembering your work when you're gone is what makes a legend then anyone who gets published is a legend. Geeks remember names... it's not that hard to be remembered.

NickRocks

08-16-2010, 09:58 PM

it's how many people remember you when you're gone that makes you a legend

50%grey

08-16-2010, 10:06 PM

I guess lol,but if thats the case.

Even carrot top and Kim kardachian are more popular then Mcfarlane could ever dream to be.

Hell more people know who the star wars kid is then Todd lol.

Lets weigh them together

Lucas

Star wars universe
THX 1138
American Graffiti
Indiana Jones
And countless other films good or bad

Started the number one Effects house of all times

Standardized Audio equipment for movies

Pioneered financing multi millon dollars films without Studio inteference.

Top selling video game and audio companies.

Not to mention what all his team members have accomplished. Half the artistic and 3d apps in production wouldnt even be in existance without ILM.

and heres the kicker EVERYONE knows who lucas is

VS

Todd Mcfarlane

Created Venom
Had a popular run on spiderman
Founding member of image comics (is that a good thing??)
Created spawn ( Already waining in popularity)
Created a Toy company that doesnt even rival the major toy companies.

Only comic book people know this guy even exists

Am I missing something here????

NickRocks

08-16-2010, 10:15 PM

dfbovey

08-16-2010, 10:22 PM

I guess lol,but if thats the case.

Even carrot top and Kim kardachian are more popular then Mcfarlane could ever dream to be.

Hell more people know who the star wars kid is then Todd lol

I think the key though is that McFarlane built something based on a skill and was respected for it by many, breaking sales records for comics, having a huge fan following because of the art he created.

Was Carrot Top ever really a respected comedian? Or Kim Kardasian a respected... whatever she is?

A lot of people will know Nichole Ritchey over ANY comic book artist. The average non-comicbook reader isn't going to know who the hell John Byrne or Will Eisner are, but they'll know Paris Hilton. Does that mean they weren't legends in their field?

50%grey

08-16-2010, 10:26 PM

But if its skill based then Lucas is sooooooooo far ahead of todd its not funny.

Im not sure how this comparison can even be made,and they both made there living off telling stories.

If you guys are saying that Todd is the Lucas of the comic book world,even that is reaching abit.

dfbovey

08-16-2010, 10:32 PM

The only comparison I ever made between the two is how a certain portion of their fan base turned on them. Other than that I don't see the comparison.

But I would wager that as far as comicbook creators being known outside of the comicbook world... McFarlane ranks pretty high.

kae_ae

08-16-2010, 10:34 PM

kae_ae

08-16-2010, 10:39 PM

I think the key though is that McFarlane built something based on a skill and was respected for it by many, breaking sales records for comics, having a huge fan following because of the art he created.

Was Carrot Top ever really a respected comedian? Or Kim Kardasian a respected... whatever she is?

A lot of people will know Nichole Ritchey over ANY comic book artist. The average non-comicbook reader isn't going to know who the hell John Byrne or Will Eisner are, but they'll know Paris Hilton. Does that mean they weren't legends in their field?

for the heck of it, from free dictionary:

"a person whose fame or notoriety makes him a source of exaggerated or romanticized tales or exploits"

kinda silly that it comes down to dragging out semantics, but there.

spidey976

08-17-2010, 12:24 AM

I'm pretty curious as to who people think which comic book creator in the 90s can be labeled a comic book legend.

Since you asked ... I will throw my two cents in.

While I don't think he is there yet ... I would have to say Jim Lee has the best chance of being a creator from the 90s who may eventually reach Legend status. Lee is currently know throughout the industry as one of the best artists out there; are there other great artists ... yeah but he is ONE of the best and he has been comics for more then 20 years now. He is one of the ONLY really big creators from that time (at least artists .... I am not as up on my writters from the era) who has really done a lot of high profile work in the last decade ... and if he hadn't been a scheduling nightmare lately you would be hearing a lot more about him as an artist. He is now one of the driving forces behind DC Comics Entertainment, and depending on how it is recieved when it comes out the DCU Online project may well bring his work into more homes then ever as he designed the look of basically everything in that game.

I think if he STARTS to get crap together when it comes to the way he meets his deadlines (or misses them), and increases his body of work ... he has the opportunity to be the creator from his generation that everyone in comic truely remembers as not only just a hotshot artist from the 90s, but as a guy who influenced a generation of fans AND artists as a creator. I DO wish he could create something more iconic then his WildSorm guys though.

NickRocks

08-17-2010, 12:36 AM

i still dont see the lucas comparison. and im a todd fan. they arent comparable. todd didnt go back and make spidey attack lizard first in torment

kae_ae

08-17-2010, 12:47 AM

spidey976

08-17-2010, 01:23 AM

spidey dude, i think if youre going to vouch for jim lee, youd have to include todd in the mix. if only because at the height of their careers i would say todd was actually more popular than jim. jim prolly is more influential tho in terms of ppl copying his style.

I am not sure about that ... simply because if you look at it in the long run ... Todd might have been more popular 15 years ago, but he hasn't REALLY done anything since that has kept him in the consciousness of the comic book world. Not really. The ONLY really big project that he was a part of in recent memory was Image United, and I think it ONLY got about one issue out. It wasn't really an EVENT, and when I was looking at some of the message boards the BIGGEST complaint was that they couldn't get Jim Lee into the fold because of his contracts and obligations to DC. Todd, and ALL of the original creators couldn't get the job done.

It is pretty much a matter of record, that back in the day, when Rob and Todd were creating Image their BIGGEST score away from Marvel was Jim Lee. They have said that he was the REAL kicker because A) He has the BIGGEST selling comic book of ALL time under his belt XMen #1 (and I may be mistaken but I think it still holds the record at 8 million copies) the closest I think Todd ever got to that number was 2.5 million copies with Spiderman #1, and B) He was more respected in the industry and popular then both Todd and Rob combined (at least as a person). A lot of people would also say that Image really started to slide with the loss of Lee and WildStorm to DC, and thou those characters have been off the radar for the most part ... that loss really seemed to tank that company. At least until the appearance of Invincible.

Also, I think your last sentence would have to lend it self to Jim Lee having the biggest artistic influence as more people look at his work and wish they could draw like that then they do Todd. Guys use to copy all of the old masters, and I think that Jim Lee is now they guy that MANY young artists look towards ... like others look towards Kirby. I think that alone MAY allow him to achieve Legendary status.

Dri

08-17-2010, 02:08 AM

Personally I think out of the image founders Todd and Lee can be regarded as legends but in all honesty besides working on the hottest comic book properties what has Lee done that Todd hasn't? If you are basing his work on Hush then that's pretty far between whatever projects he has taken on. Besides, what has Jim Lee created of note? Was it Gambit or Psylocke or Omega Red? As much as I enjoyed WildCATS stories after Lee, the wildcats were templates of the X-Men formula.

So apart from Lee's appeal as a artist with a popular style his best success has been as a company man. I don't know if that takes away from his legendary status but it I would say Todd has created the better characters.

Liefeld could be regarded as a legend I suppose but his one dimensional aspects of creating characters and lazy storytelling have undone him throughout the years.

The point is there is only one true legend.

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:N1qQd9-tmqXjJM:http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/benson182/howimetyourmother-barney-neilpatric.jpg&t=1

kae_ae

08-17-2010, 02:14 AM

yeah! jim lees biggest contribution were pouches, straps and buckles.

:P

and top knots. or was that rob?

NickRocks

08-17-2010, 02:17 AM

The point is there is only one true legend.

http://www.freewebs.com/spikedlipstick/timcurry.jpg

old ppl, dat wuz foar yuu

turnbolt

08-17-2010, 04:44 AM

bubububu my opinions were gleaned from reputable literary sources! :( :( :(

kinda hard to link to stuff i read in books and magazines, you know, these bounded paper things with printed words and sometimes *gasp* pictures. oh you kid and your wiki referencing ways :)

I'M the kid? I almost garauntee that I am older than you and to prove it I have written term papers in my day and know how to add foot notes at the bottom of a page to include my references and can clearly document sources when asked to.

I would LOVE to see the list of publications and page numbers from where you have pulled all of these Todd McFarlane and George Lucas "facts" for your account of their careers. I'm sure you researched right through them while you were writing your thorough response and that this isn't all based on crap you think you might have read years ago... because Todd McFarlane is still such a hot topic in magazines around the world. :)

spidey976

08-17-2010, 05:49 AM

I guess I am looking at Lee's potential to influence te artistic world rather then say the characters he has created, because I would have to agree that with just Venom and Spawn Todd has creaed more interesting characters then Lee. I just think that Lee will be remembered long after he passes away for the way he influenced other artists where as Todd's Venom will last after he has been forgotten.

Edit: I think that if you combine their accomplishments then MAYBE you would have an artist that was able to be on the same level as say Jack Kirby who has creations that still endure and who continues to inspire the work of others long after he left the industry

Popninja

08-17-2010, 08:44 AM

that wasnt a comparison of McF and Lucas, but nice try.

That was me saying that that statement could also apply to Mcf. He created Venom, widely considered to be one of spideys greatest foes. thats no easy feat to do on a characters that was already almost 30 years old.

Liefeld is a legend too. I think alot of you are confusing "legend" with "amazing artist". People still and will still talk about these guys when they are gone. that alone gives them a legend.

liefelds legend is that of an artist who capitalized during an "easy" period of comics and despite his artistic flaws made a ton of money and was a founding father of one of the biggest comic companies. no one can take that from him.

Nick, I think you are seriously confused all around. If Rob Liefeld got hit by a bus tomorrow, I can promise you that the news report would not begin with "Comic book legend Rob Liefeld..." Same with McFarlane.

But let's clarify at least one thing. Legend by definition means "story handed down by tradition." So you have to ask yourself, 100 years from now, in the year 2110, will people be talking about Todd McFarlane and his contribution to comics? Like I said earlier, at best, McFarlane is a footnote in the history of comics.

Also, let's clarify another thing. Todd McFarlane co-created Venom. The roots of Venom start with Secret Wars, through Web of Spider-Man and on to Amazing Spider-Man. The whole symbiote thing was not the brainchild of McFarlane. Just like everyone wants to say that Liefeld created Cable. They created the looks of these characters. Leave Venom off of the McFarlane creations list. He created Spawn.

Trama

08-17-2010, 08:47 AM

Whoa, I leave a thread for a couple days....

Okay, since I was the guy that made the comparison, let me explain it. I didn't say Lucas and McFarland were in the same league. I didn't say that the public would remember Spawn over Star Wars. It wasn't a comparison of talent.

The point of the comparison was that both men started as artists, but will be better remembered for their business acumen. Period. Sure, Star Wars will be the centerpiece of Lucas' obit. That said, there will also be a sizable chunk devoted to all the technological solutions he came up with for the film industry. He was the first guy to use creator-owned rights in the corporate environment, funding Empire and Jedi outside of the studio system. On top of that, he will also be remembered as the guy who understood that holding the licensing rights to your creations can be more lucrative than the actual films (and can fund said films).

Like Lucas, McFarland's obit will probably mention Spawn. But more than that, it will discuss how he was the first guy to successfully create a company other than the big two, in an environment when others failed. Sure, today we have IDW, BOOM, etc, but then it was Dark Horse, Image, and maybe Valiant. But Image was the breakout, making things like glossy pages and creator-owned comics the norm. Further, McFarland branched out, creating his own toy company when he didn't like what the others had to offer (Lee went with Playmates).

So the overall point wasn't that both men are the same, or even competitors. The point was, both will be remembered for their business contributions as much as their artistic.

Now I'm going to stop talking about obituaries.

Popninja

08-17-2010, 09:01 AM

...McFarland's obit will probably mention Spawn. But more than that, it will discuss how he was the first guy to successfully create a company other than the big two, in an environment when others failed. Sure, today we have IDW, BOOM, etc, but then it was Dark Horse, Image, and maybe Valiant. But Image was the breakout, making things like glossy pages and creator-owned comics the norm. Further, McFarland branched out, creating his own toy company when he didn't like what the others had to offer (Lee went with Playmates).

I have a hard time with your opinions when you can't even get dude's name right.

Also, again, it's sounding like you want to put Image, as a whole, in the hands of Todd McFarlane, as if it was his baby. So many other people had a hand in the creation of Image Comics that it's a bit of a cold slap to the nether regions to say that "he was the first guy to successfully create a company other than the big two."

NickRocks

08-17-2010, 11:40 AM

But let's clarify at least one thing. Legend by definition means "story handed down by tradition." So you have to ask yourself, 100 years from now, in the year 2110, will people be talking about Todd McFarlane and his contribution to comics? Like I said earlier, at best, McFarlane is a footnote in the history of comics.

I want to argue this, but i have a sneaking suspicion you are right. still, i dont think it's as black and white as the thread title suggests.

Trama

08-17-2010, 01:42 PM

I have a hard time with your opinions when you can't even get dude's name right.

What can I say, it was early. But don't let the typo throw you.

And you're right, there were a lot of people that helped Image, but this thread is discussing McFarlane in particular so that is the scope of my argument and I stand by the comparison.

Popninja

08-17-2010, 01:50 PM

But you can't say "he was the first guy to successfully create a company other than the big two," because he wasn't. They were the first stable of hugely popular superstars to break from the Big Two and start their own company, with a big help from Malibu Comics with distribution and publishing.

So the scope of your argument can't include Image as something McFarlane did, because Image was a group of 7 artists. They did it together. Use Spawn, McFarlane Toys, and anything that bears his name as creator/owner, but don't gimme that HE was the first guy to create a company stuff.

pigeonmilk

08-17-2010, 02:24 PM

He really wasnt that great i think. I was never a fan of his art personally..besides the toys that movie and his spawn comic, I'd say Silvestri had a better run than Mcfarlane did.

With top cow still producing comics and launching artists like Finch and Turner he is still in the comics game.

Mcfarlane just got in at a good time just like liefield.. If they were to come in 2010 as new artists trying to get in the comics field I would say they might have a hard time doing it.

AlexT17

08-23-2010, 10:56 AM

I own the New Line Platinum Series: Spawn Director's Cut DVD. The blurb on the back of the case reads as follows:

"Imagine a creature on the verge of creation. From comic book legend Todd McFarlane comes the live action special-effects movie event of the year--SPAWN. Michael Jai White, John Leguizamo and Martin Sheen star in a battle beyond good, beyond evil and beyond imagination."

Anyone with this copy of the DVD can confirm this blurb.

pigeonmilk

08-23-2010, 11:00 AM

I think the quality of the film confirms that blurb...that movie was dump.

Night Robin

09-07-2010, 02:07 PM

Mcfarlane just got in at a good time just like liefield.. If they were to come in 2010 as new artists trying to get in the comics field I would say they might have a hard time doing it. Speaking as someone who just read Spawn vol 1 for the first time a few days ago, I can honestly say that I think this guy is over hyped. I think the story was sub par, but I'll excuse that based on the fact that it's a tad dated and I've probably read things inspired by it that make the story feel less original. But I think McFarlane as an artist is very overrated. He's good. But I just don't see what everyone else sees I guess. All I've ever heard is how fantastic Spawn was/is and I was reading it expecting what everybody thinks is so special about it to just jump off the page and say "Here I am!" but I turned the last page and honestly don't know if I'll ever pick up volume 2. I just don't get his appeal.

I also read Haunt but for Kirkman and Ottley and in-spite of the obvious Spider-Man influence.

Teratophile

10-20-2010, 10:26 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e79DeNFU3Sg

don't know if this was posted. i'll just leave it here for now.

Dri

10-20-2010, 11:21 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e79DeNFU3Sg

don't know if this was posted. i'll just leave it here for now.

What's your point, Ray?

hellblazer72

11-29-2010, 07:04 PM

Speaking as someone who just read Spawn vol 1 for the first time a few days ago, I can honestly say that I think this guy is over hyped. I think the story was sub par, but I'll excuse that based on the fact that it's a tad dated and I've probably read things inspired by it that make the story feel less original. But I think McFarlane as an artist is very overrated. He's good. But I just don't see what everyone else sees I guess. All I've ever heard is how fantastic Spawn was/is and I was reading it expecting what everybody thinks is so special about it to just jump off the page and say "Here I am!" but I turned the last page and honestly don't know if I'll ever pick up volume 2. I just don't get his appeal.

I also read Haunt but for Kirkman and Ottley and in-spite of the obvious Spider-Man influence.

A lot of that might have to do with his writing style. Which was draw a bunch of pages that looked cool and spread them out and then pick what order the pages go in.

spidey976

11-29-2010, 07:35 PM

What's your point, Ray?

I am kind of feeling that way about this WHOLE thread at this point.

Erick Cruz

07-08-2011, 12:24 PM

Mcfarlane just got in at a good time just like liefield.. If they were to come in 2010 as new artists trying to get in the comics field I would say they might have a hard time doing it.

No way.

For one thing you have to look at the ramifications art wise the original image 7 guys brought to comics in the 90's and the seeds they laid down that you can see in todays comics.
McFarlane changed how Spider-Man is drawn, so if Todd hadnt arrived as an artist on Spidey in the 90's, what would Spidey look like now?

Notice that out of all of the main Image guys Todds style is the one least copied.
Greg Capullo's current style is derived from Todd because he wanted to keep the look of Spawn consistent with what Todd had done.

If Todd showed his work to editors he'd be hired on the spot, no doubt in my mind.

Liefeld, well... :x

Is Todd a Legend? Well, Todd isnt dead yet so he still has time to build one. Right now I say he has left a legacy.